I have have been listening to music all my life but have only recently started experimenting with different amplifier and/or speakers/component combinations. I have recently moved from Parasound JC 1's to Classe Cam 400 monoblocks which I have both loved (maybe the prior a bit more) and are contemplating another move. I have been very intrigued by tube monoblocks and have the opportunity now to move to ARC ref 600's. I can also get Mark Levinson 33's for about the same cost. I am just uncertain about the Ref 600's as I am worried that I might be disappointed in the tube sound.
Can someone with more experience perhaps help me out here ? I am using the amps as part of a home-theatre setup driving 802 d's and other 800 diamond fronts and rears. I would really appreciate some good advice here.
No problem. I had the XP-20 for 2 years of time. These days I use A Onkyo PR-SC5509 with Audyssey Pro. And now comes the key factor. I do a lot Onkyo since 3 years. I have done many tests with Audyssey. Since one year I am also a pro installer. I am additced to music since I was 6. At that age I had my own Philips big tape recorder with tubes. I sarted early. I am in audio since 1998. I have worked for 8 years in audio speciality shops. But these days I do consulting in sound and vision. I love the freedom it gives. I have a photographic memory what makes audio a lot ebtter to understand. I can see 3-4 steps further than other people can in this business. I measure at total different places and hights compared to the Audyssey way. This is superior in dynamics, resolution and focus. There way is ok but not convincing. You loose too much dynamics. I have done a lot of tests to improve it. Audyssey is a lot more than solving acoustic problems. This is only 1/3 of the whole system. I use it from highend audio point of view. 6 months ago I was the absolute sound with my own system at a big audio show. To be unnest it was very easy to blow away the rest. Most distrinuters do not have the knowledge and only use the stuff they sell. What make the PR_SC with my measurement different? More dynamic and more speed. ( even compared to the XP-20 I had before) My stage is wider and deeper than the XP-20. My individual focus of instruments and voices is sharper. Cause of solving the acoustic problems of the room there is so much more music and authority. Without you normally will get a lot of issues. Even in the high freq. I have more information. Like I said before; words endings at ss, ttt and th had never been this open and clear. At the audio show I visited many other sets. Which were inferior in speed, depth, resolution, 3-dimensional focus, blacks etc. Shop owners came to me and saud: we never heard this level before. I use the Pl-200 from Monitor Audio and there PLW-15 sub. With my measurement I have the stealth integration of a sub I Always dreamed of. This sub is a lot better in speed and respons compared to Rel and Velodyne. I have a freq range now from 16hz till above 100.000 hz. And I can play at an extrme level without stress. ( pl-200 can play till about 118db spl)
Different cables: Audioquest Redwood 2013 bi-wire loudspeakercable. Pure silver for high/mid, pure copper for low freq. This cable gives the best blacks I have heard sofar by any loudspeakercable. It gives the intimate sound as I experienced as in real. I owned the Nordost Valhalla for 12 years. The Redwood is even better in speed and drive compared to the Valhalla. I use most Purist Audio power cables like the 2013 LE. Interconnects: Acapella xlr pure silver and Audioquest Sky pure silver. I have a Pass Labs X250.5 poweramp ( upgrade to 600.5 will be next amps)
I have to vary slightly from the others. The ML 23.5 and 20.6 are still to this day, two of the very best amps I have heard. I have heard others from Mark Levinson after the company was sold and I wasn't greatly impressed. Howevedr, the two mentioned? Well...wonderful.
They are more musical, but this is only sound. The absolute sound in my world is a level which stands closer to the real thing. As it is in real. I learned at a friends concert room how direct and small in proportion voices and even instruments are in real. I thought they would be a lot bigger. I call this intimate sound. He ad a room for about 60 people. I was pulled like a magnet to the music. I have done a lot of research to get this doen by an audio system. I am a perfectionist and always looking for the best. Pass labs give a much wider and deeper stage compared to Mark Lenvinson. Even acoustic recordings you hear the difference of different acoustic guitars much easier compared to ML amps. The latest amps have a more musical sound of ML. But compared to Pass Labs you miss still the essential parts for the absolute sound. I understand that most people did not have possibilities like me to do hundreds of tests to understand it. But it is not so difficult to hear the difference. These days I learn people the difference between 2 and 3-dimensional sound. They all understand it very fast. Because I have a system what is easily to convince.
In the 15 years I am in this business I never heard a good demo of ML gear. I listen a lot of them. With my knowledge it is difficult to understand why people bought it. You can get easily superior stuff for the same price. Wenn you spend a lot of money on this you want at least a deep and wide stage. And a very natural sound. Even these parts they cannot give. To be unnest often the people who have it did not know there was stuff which is that better. On the other hand you are still responsible for the stuff you bought.
"I think a combi with Pass labs power amp with a tube pre amp is a good option for you as well!!:
Agree with you on that. Been running a CJ tube pre (ART) into a Pass ss amp (XA100.5) into my Magnepan 3.6's for about 4 years now. No desire to try anything else and for reference, my other system is all tubed using an SET amp.
Also agree with the ML remarks. When I first heard the 33h's, they caught me but with further listening I felt something missing. I blamed that on what the SET did for my ears, something about the harmonics I think, but the Pass and tube pre combo works for me.
I have a client who owns the 800D. He used the ML 33's. Wenn I listend to this amps I was surprised how poor the sound and stage depth and wide was. He was not happy with it. So he asked me what to do? I said try Pass labs. He tried it and he still owns it. He never was this happy with his set ever. All the ML demo's I heard in my life ( there were a lot) I never got thrilled. Why? Because there are always missing essential parts which should be there. I think a combi with Pass labs power amp with a tube pre amp is a good option for you as well!!
Sorry, I was speaking on a different issue. Almarg has made it abundantly clear many times over that you simply can't have too much power, period. People are not aware just how taxing the music really is. I think Al may even be a bit conservative in his estimations regarding run of the mill compressed recordings.
Csontos, I can't tell you how many people I've seen spend thousand on wire, carts etc to get rid of "harsh" high end on Symphonic music, when a 2 minute listen made it clear their amp was clipping. IMHO , you can't have too much power on a speaker under 94db, if you never heard the clarity of more than enough you will take the average as adequate.
Schubert, you only need to care about what an amp is doing on average. So the meter doesn't have to be fast, just accurate. However, my position that you must do final adjustments while listening doesn't cease to be valid, for other reasons. But bridged monos are a whole other ball game. Here you have no choice but to rely on your instruments until you finally 'hit' it. I've tried using just right channels on both amps in stereo, matching them, and then matching left to right in each amp. That doesn't work because bias is thermally influenced and the unused left channel runs cool initially, influencing the overall temp of the amp differently than when it's being matched to it's respective right channel. These temperatures are critical and no two identical amps behave identically, just as no two identical channels of a stereo amp behave identically.
The meters on my Squeezebox tell the input level balance in an obvious visual format, and it might be possible to correlate this to amp output if I cared about that. I do understand there are some who tinker with SS amp innards, but for instant gratification fans tube rolling is hard to beat.
Wolf- I have started to see people changing OP amps like tube rollers, and further people with the means often have their gear modded with different "better" capacitors and the like. It happens that tubes are easy to change in most circumstances. As you said tubes are more fun I agree, part of that fun has been rolling some of the best tubes ever made into my gear.
Wolf, I have actually done that. The covers on the amps I happen to be using at a given time always have the screws removed. It takes about a month to settle down a particular amp and get it's bias and it's offset optimized. After that it needs to be checked regularly. Contrary to popular belief, ss amps are by no means maintenance free. Once you've got it 'actually' running optimally, this whole thing about IM, TIM, brightness, etc. becomes moot. The key is channel balance within the amp. You either have it or you don't. When you do, that so-called brightness becomes attenuated, the amp becomes very linear sounding, and you have an actual dimensional sound stage. But I'm a vintage guy. Can't speak about class D or switch-mode amps.
Have you ever been looking at your SS amp and thought, "I wonder what it would sound like if I tried different transistors in there", and then you ran out to buy a set of new transistors, you stick 'em in there, and listen. NO YOU HAVE NOT. Unless you're very handy with your gear...get it? I'm not so sure about the LED lit tubes...there is an ethicial issue with those (I have a little tube headphone amp with a silly red LED) although I'm not sure what that is...but I know it's there. I also set my Squeezebox on VU at night...it gives some life to the proceedings without any harm...kind of like my tube amp.
This has me recalling one of my all time favorite posts on Audiogon. Member Viridian responds to the question of why itÂ’s so important to some to have their tubes on display rather than protected inside:
Viridian: "The phallic splendor. The blue stray electrons breaking free of their appointed paths. The red hot filaments beconing with their oh so subtle light, in a darkened room. The myriad reflections of light on glass and chrome. Who the hell knows? I paid for the damn things; I want to see them."
Some tube amp makers not only show their tubes (gasp!), but have figured out how to make them glow in different colors!!! Like Jolida FX10, which is one sweet looking little amp, like a mini, affordable VAC Phi Beta, which is the Brooklyn Decker of tube integrateds IMHO. I am not likely to be able to afford either my favorite VAC integrated nor Brooklyn Decker in the near future though. I suppose the fake colored blue Jolida glow is a bit shameful though. Kinda like makeup for tubes.
I love them both. Honestly for me it's all about the music. When I set out to buy a new amp (integrated in my case), I don't have my mind set on whether it's going to be a tube or solid state. Listening to my music determines that. I bought my Rogue Cronus because I thought it sounded great with my speakers. I just ordered a Hegel H200 today for the same reason. I will say that to me, the solid state Hegel sounds more musical and it should for twice the price regardless of the technology. The Rogue will stay with me because it does sound fantastic and yes, the tubes glow.
Yea. Tubes are way cool. Especially the "BIG" ones, eh. Now that's gotta be some serious WAF appeal. Anybody out there with just 'little' tubes on their amps? I sometimes wonder if there is a phallic influence in owning one of those things. Anyone?
In all seriousness, the best tube amps I have heard sound pretty much like the best SS amps to me and vice versa. Not sure I have ever heard either sound equally top notch with the same speakers though. Gotta look at the whole picture...
I guess those of us that like and appreciate both tube and solid state electronics must not be welcome here. So Nelson Pass, Dan D'Augustino, Mark levinson and the thousand of other really good electronics designers (read solid state) designs must be like a radio shack piece compared to the simplest tube electronics. Just kidding all. So don't just down my throat. It sometimes appears as if on this site if you aren't 100% in the tube camp you don't exist. Some tube amps just don't do it for me, same for solid state. However, there are some that are absolutely wonderful. Better than the like designed/priced tube/ss amp? nope. different, maybe. Right now, I really like the new Audio Research REF 250 amp. Wow! it is great. But, I'm sure there are equally good solid state amps out there in the same price/quality range. remember, always compare apples to apples.
VU meters also glow and are way cool!!! I do miss them also. My squeezebox Touch devices have a VU AND a graphic Equalizer display mode, but I can only use one mode at a time. I need two SBs so I can have all those pretty lights glowing and flashing along with the tube in the DAC, which normally ONLY glows and does not flash. If it flashes, I think that is a bad thing??
Maybe audiophiles truly have evolved and matured to the extent now where glitz, lights and bling does not matter as much anymore as in the past, and Wolf and I are good examples of throwbacks to our more "neanderthal" days?
Nah. The audiophiles have evolved part that is, not the throwbacks part.
Spartan modern gear is largely vendors managing cost and keeping profit levels up I would say. We all would mostly still like to have all the glitz and bling to go along with the good sound.
I blame it all on the AHEE. RaulRuegas, are you listening? Maybe just a little on WAF as well.....
Only buy a SS amp if it has VU meters that move...all SS amps should be required to have this, and the fact that they don't is shameful. If you have a tube amp that does not display the tubes, sell it and get one that does. This is really the only way...another idea is to use a SS amp that sounds good (you know.."tube like"), hide it, and place any crappy old tube amp with visable tubes that light up where it can easily be mistaken as the amp driving the speakers, thus having the best of both worlds except for the tube sound, which is also more fun and better for your health, like organic rice.
"TG, I think the The Map was just having some fun....RIGHT MAPMAN??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IF you can't have some fun with cool looking glowy things like tubes, what is there to live for?
Well, I have received a few shocks and burns over the years from gadgets with tubes in them, but I do not blame the tubes for making me want to touch and play around with them. Kinda like women... :-)
TG, I think the The Map was just having some fun....RIGHT MAPMAN??!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;-)
I remember an IEEE (I think) paper from many years ago that said, "The transistor is superior to the tube in every regard except one, the amplification of audio". Doesn't mean you can't screw it up and also some speakers will just do better with a ss amp.
My tubes are hidden in my ARC sp16. They sound really good but do their thing out of site. I'd like to see more of them if possible, but of well....
My mhdt Paradisea has 1 visible tube and a see through plexiglass case that lets the light shine through. Ahhh...
I like to see my tubes glow. ALways have been fascinated by that since just a kid. They look way cool!!!! I can get good sound many ways, but only tubes glow and look cool like tubes.
Call me shallow for liking how tubes glow, but hey, at least that helps make up for my boring looking OHM speakers.
I'd bet that if all tubes were hidden, they would not be as popular. Any takers.
Nice try Mapman, I'm just guessing that you haven't recently heard or listened to the best attributes that tube contribute to reproduced sound. I could say the same thing about my inexperience with Class D amplifiers. Not all tube amps nor class D "ice" amps are created equally, I've heard a few "ice" amps and while they can offer some of the attributes contributing to good sound they have not to date influenced me in any manner to prefer them over my amplifier. I know that what I am saying has nothing to do with whether they glow or not. First off, I can't even see the tubes in my amp as they are covered by a rather utilitarian perforated cover that doesn't reveal what's inside, they could be solid state, Class D or tube to a casual view. To me it all comes down to what works and sounds most convincing in a given system regardless of tube or SS. Your remarks are a bit more condescending than maybe your intent. After all, our ears should be the final arbitrator in this discussion/debate.
Tubes are fascinating devices from an electrical engineering perspective but to the less technically educated masses, I think the fact that tubes glow and look cool have something to do with their longevity and cult following. Transistors are boring to look at as are CDs compared to vinyl. And don't even get me started about what file downloads look like. What could be more boring to look at than....nothing? :^)
You don't have to know anything about the technology of tubes and transistors, or even the sound of them to know that something special is up with tubes. Tubes were declared obsolete about 55 years ago- they have now been around as obsolete technology for longer than they were the only game in town! If they really were obsolete there would be no market forces to cause new tube production facilities to be created but that has happened in the last 15 years or so.
The simple fact of the matter is that the market says there is a good reason for them to be here, decades after they should have been gone forever. We would not have these conversations otherwise!
I still find the Berning zotl amps have the speed, drive, dynamic capability and bass control of the BEST SS amps with the dimension, texture, low level resolution and presence of the best tube amps providing they are ideally matched to the speaker. Really tough to beat that combination of virtues in a tube design. Another big plus is the efficiency of the tubes operating at lower filiment current for longer tube life and less heat in the room. I also agree that there is less place in this hobby for high powered tube amps unless they can somehow find a way to design them to be more efficient.
With my years of experience in this hobby, I have the idea that the best solution comes as either small tube powered amp matching very high efficiency speakers or highly powered SS or class D amps matching modern low efficiency speakers. The trend is class D and low efficiency speakers. High powered tube amp is fast becoming thing of the past as SS amps are sounding very close to tubes.
I can't say one is better than the other. I've used tube for about 5 years and I've loved it, although I miss ss like crazy. That's where I started in the 70's and it carried me all the way until around 2007 when I got my first tubes. When matched properly both are fantastic. I'm missing the ss ease of mind.having both is ideal.
1) I have heard tube amps that sound harsher than SS amps, vice versa, quite alike, and then of course quite different. I feel the further up in the bucks one goes, the more and more amps begin sounding more alike than they do different. It's almost as if the "hi-fi" world treats Tubes/SS just like they do digital/vinyl...
2) I have noticed that amps, regardless of what they are, can either dig into the speaker well, or they just fail to do so. Even tube amps with say, 90 watts a side vs. my 30 watts a side amps can sound inferior not just sound quality wise but POWER wise...that 90 watt $5K retail tube amp just cannot dig into my speakers like the 30 watter can...same with SS amps...5K-20K SS amps can have just as much trouble, but, the ones that are capable, absolutely flatten my tube amps with respect to breaking open the speaker:)). No getting around that one:)! However, just because they are breaking open the speaker more, does not mean the "quality" is as good. So you are then faced with, am I ok with the power levels I can achieve with the much superior quality OR do I really need the much louder levels with a sacrifice of the quality?
3) I am in the camp that a reference level line stage, a very pure sounding one, can actually do wonders for SS amps...sure, I still find issues with these SS amps vs. my reference tube amps...BUT...those issues are a LOT more subtle and even capable of the compromise. In other words, I can easily live with an SS amp with lesser sound quality (so long as the SS is close enough sound wise) because my preamp gives such a fantastic signal/resolution for that amplifier to enjoy. Some will say the tube magic in a pre ahead of an SS amp is the way to go, and this is indeed a very basic/simple way to go...but my preamp (it's a preamp+dac tied into one unit) has such a clean sound in spite it is a transistor based linestage, that I do not find any point in using a tubed device. I have a tubed pre-dac as well and yes, it adds some flavor, but it's so similar sounding due to the designer's very similar circuitry/design tastes that I don't consider it to be any different in terms of "helping" that SS amp sound more like tubes or whatever. Anyways, point here is that preamp can truly "click" onto a well done SS amp and make all the difference in the world in terms of sacrificing that love for your beloved tube amp, but gaining in that ultimate breaking loose of the speakers.
There's never an easy answer in all of this, but I rank things like this:
Preamp (in my case, pre-dac) and then a "good" SS amp or a "good" tube amp (either/or dependent on your speaker's efficiency or even how loud you need to hear the music).
Lastly, and something I did not discuss is impedance matching..the very best impedance matched system is going to "always" have a head start..matching the system impedance/gain structure goes a long way to get as pure of a signal as tightly locked together as is possible.
Hope this helps others in spite it's a year old thread:))!
Syntax, Your Wilson example is a good one. Higher load impedance seems more important and beneficial than just looking at a speaker`s sensitivity. It certainly seems the higher the speaker`s ohm-load, the better tube amps(in particular) will sound. Atmasphere`s explanation makes much sense. The sound does become more alive, dynamic and natural. Regards,
What kind of amp you will use should be always seen with the connected amplifier. You will find a lot of high powered Tube amps which are able to drive insensitive loads, but they will never get the magic you can get with high sensitive speakers (in a way this can be said for Transistor amps, too). Unfortunately it is not so easy to find such speakers because the quality & design of the X-over is mandatory (Some owners think that - for example - 95dB Wilson speakers are perfect with 18/30W Tube amps, it is a mistake, but what you don't know you won't hear...). Atma-Sphere will have a good selection of Speakers which work with their Amps. I would recommend to ask Ralph for a Recommendation (because his amps are sounding right). Some say, the magic is in the first Watt .... well, it is not that wrong. I listened to tube amps matched with high sensitive speakers, they showed a Performance I never heard with Transistor amps. Btw. the Ref 600 have no "Tube" Sound, they are pretty straight, but for those B&W speakers for home theatre the Levinson will do.
Currently I have arc ref 250 driving my 802. The arc is replacing a mc302, that I liked, but the ref 250 is way better. I did a comparison between the ref250 and the mc2301, with the arc ref phono 2 and ref5. The all arc system was better, but both amps were able to drive the speakers wonderfully. There were power enough to fill my 36 sq m room. Actually, and don't ask me why, I need less 'watts' with the ref 250 ( to perceive the same volume level) than with the mc302.
Bifwynne, I would certainly give the ZEROs a try and see how that works out.
If you are using the 8 ohm tap, at the 70-200Hz region the power tubes are loaded at half of what is expected for them. IOW, the output transformer live up to its name- it *transforms* impedance, so if it were to normally load the power tubes at say, 3000 ohms if there were an 8 ohm load on the 8 ohm tap, it would be only 1500 ohms if 4 ohms is on that same tap. The power tubes will thus have higher distortion and lower power as a result.
Now with a lot of output transformers, the 4 ohm tap is not nearly as efficient as the higher impedance taps are. So its no surprise that things go downhill using the 4 ohm tap.
If the speaker can be bi-wired, you could use the ZERO on just the low impedance part of the speaker and run direct on the rest of it.
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