Tube + SS bi-amping B&W 803 D3s?

You should try it. Especially with those speakers which are known to be power hungry and on the bright side. I bi-amped for the first time 48 years ago and still have a tri-amped main system. Others on this site will gladly help you to do it correctly. My suggestion would be to eventually bypass all of the internal crossover parts. Good luck on your journey!

Best of both worlds if you can dial it in.  Tube rolling will likely become part of the fine tuning once your tube amps are in, but that's one of the benefits of having tubes.  You'll need the ability to adjust gain on both sets of amps.  

I'm running Dyna/VTA monoblocks from ~ 60hz up, and use a silver mica caps as an inline high pass filter so that the amps don't have to produce the bottom octaves.  

Good luck!


 

Well, what you’re hearing are the inherent sound characteristics of your speakers.  If you prefer a warmer sound these really aren’t the speakers that would cater to your preferences and that you are now having to jump through hoops to fix with upstream components.  And BTW your current amp and pre already lean to the warm side, which just shows you’re already fighting an uphill battle.  So can you possibly improve the sound more to your liking with a tube amp?  Sure, but that may come with other issues (and expense) so the question becomes should you?  Basically you’re swimming against the current here, and another way to go would be to sell the 803s and buy speakers that actually produce the type of sound you prefer rather than having to work around the speakers with expensive fixes.  I would point you toward something like Sonus Faber, QLN, ProaAc, or Joseph Audio speakers among others that would likely sound great with your current amp.  Sorry to be a bit of a shot of cold water here but just wanted to give you another potential option and way to look at this.  Best of luck.

I appreciate the input. I have thought of it, but when I first heard the speakers at the dealer it was the absolute perfect blend of warmth and brightness, and I haven’t ever fully realized that at home. Unfortunately I don’t remember the specific equipment they were using but I do believe they were being powered by McIntosh tubes, thus my exploring this path. Ultimately, probably would have been cheaper to buy a McIntosh amp up front rather than the Parasound and then maybe something else, but that ship has sailed. 

i use a pair of McIntosh MC 901 mono amplifiers which is a biamping creation and it seems to work really well with the built-in crossover stuff. Doing all this externally is a royal pain in the ass.  Difficult to blend things very well with four separate monos and requires lots of interconnects.  

I like the idea of tubes and maybe with the 803s you may be better served with A pair of 300 W tube monos, maybe CJ, or stereo amplifier with tubes and just leave it at that, ie no biamping.  I haven’t tried using just the tube side of the 901s to power the entire speaker without the solid state and maybe I should but I’m lazy I guess but not sure it would be all that meaningful at this point.  I have 802 D3s and they’re doing a lot better with tons of power which I now have.

I like the Sonus speaker recommendation.  Speaker cables were very helpful to tone down brightness of 802s.  If you use a processor for Home theater DSP is very helpful. 

Mixing amps like what you're talking about almost never sounds right. If you're able to try a tube amp without committing to a purchase, then do it. You'll probably need a crossover to get the levels right. I say fix the problem directly. If you really love the speakers and know you want to keep them for a long time, it would make more sense to get a more forgiving power amp and speaker cables. That said, more audiophiles have gone broke trying to get B&W's sounding right more than any other speaker. That's why most of us had B&W's and not have them. The midrange on your speakers is great. Fast, clean, articulate, etc.. It just draws you into the music. The highs are always a problem. Also, I wouldn't go by your memory of how they sounded when you first heard them at a dealer. Now that you've had the speakers for a while and know how they sound, hearing the original setup again may sound completely different. 

My own impression is to agree with 052rc's writing: "Mixing amps like what you're talking about almost never sounds right."

Here, there are some listeners who have found happiness with solid state, others who prefer tubes, and others who hop the fence from time to time. I would think that most here would agree that tube power amplification and SS power amplification are fundamentally different in character -- even those amplifiers at the highest price point and/or the highest performance point.

They are different; highs, lows, mids, sub-bass, impedance, phase, authority, slam, smoothness, stage, imaging, presence, air, on and on.

Bi-amped, approaching crossover frequency, one will hear two amplifiers contributing, more or less, the same amount of sonic energy. If the two sources of that energy are inherently different, then the result near crossover will be perhaps a strange amalgam. 

I'd wager some readers have found likeable combinations, but none without much consideration and many experiments. The probability of "picking" one SS amp, one tube amp, and one speaker, and getting close to excellent sound seems quite small.

YMMV; please do report back in detail. 

Cheers.

@emergingsoul A pair of McIntosh MC451 would be my dream for it but is a little pricier than I want to go. I’m sure your system sounds absolutely amazing though!

@052rc ​​@eurorack — Thank you both for the well-reasoned feedback. It’s a consideration but would be a very tough pill to swallow. Plus I love my turbine heads! 

The mixing of amps is indeed another variable, but I don’t think I’d go as far as to say it almost never sounds right.  It depends, and it certainly can sound right...and even better, which is what makes it enticing to try.   

The crossover frequencies where the amps pass off the signal, gain matching, polarity shifts, and the characteristics of the amps themselves come into play.  You might hit the setup on the first attempt, or at least may find some satisfying improvements, but if not there are still a lot cards that can be played to dial it in.  Tube rolling can make a notable difference, but the real changes can  happen if you opt to start bypassing passive crossovers and implement active crossovers or inline filters.  

Point being, you won’t know until you try.  If you’re willing to make the effort, there are some spectacular potential results to be had.  It doesn’t have to happen all at once to be a fun and successful endeavor.  One step at a time.  

My bi-amping started with two identical modified Dyna/VTA stereo amps  in a vertical configuration...one on the left, one of the right, and it improved the separation quite a bit, and the clarity somewhat compared to a single stereo Dyna/VTA 70 amp.  It still had the bass that a modest tube amp driving a 4 ohm load offers, so later on I switched to a horizontal setup and added an integrated amp to handle the woofers, while the tube amps fed the midbass and tweeters.  That led to me bypassing the passive crossover of the woofers and adding an active low pass crossover, which allowed me to adjust the crossover frequency and vary the gain....a notable improvement in bass and overall clarity to the tube amps and midbass/tweeters too.  The next step was to install an inline high pass filter to the tube amps to eliminate their responsibility of producing the bottom octave or two to the midbass...another very notable gain in overall clarity to the whole frequency range above that (~60hz).   All in all, it is considerably improved in several areas compared to just a single stereo amp....at least in my case.  Different situations, and likely different approaches required, but the potential remains if you wish to pursue it. There are typically solutions for every perceived issue. You’ll learn as you go, and can take it as far as you want to.  

@052rc the B&W tweeters can always be tamed down. Macs have a handful of hybrid bi-ampable amps.

@andrewmland try to demo AGD amps if you are spending in that ballpark. It's solid state but I hear the input section is tuned to sound like tubes making it the best of both tubes and class D but without the noise and replacement cost of tubes.

@andrewmland 

I have to agree that mixing amps is not a good idea, its a nice idea and kind of tantalizing to fantasize about.

If your dead set on this approach then I would at least stay with Mac equipment. Better chances of getting them to match.

My system is tri-amped, lots and lots of wires, I went with ARC pre and Pass amps. Also using an outboard electronic x-over.  BTW I've been through three sets of amps to get where I'm at (took about 35 years!).

I am not familiar with all the Shitt equipment and their silly names, but they do make an equalizer that several people in the forum use to excellent success.

Good luck in your quest.

Regards,

barts

Before you buy anything else, try no toe-in on your setup. My 803 D3 sounded bright when toed-in towards the listening seat but became significantly warmer after eliminating toe-in and facing the speakers straight ahead.

Also made the soundstage wider. Winner/winner!

Sidenote- I am using PS Audio M1200 monoblocks driven full-range.

@tomcarr Very interesting! Will try tonight and look forward to reporting back.

@knotscott 

Adjustment you made to limit the lower frequencies going through tube amplifier was very interesting. I have heard that if you let lower frequencies flow through the tube amplifier with the resulting output not using them because only the higher frequencies are going to the mid and tweeter drivers this can create a problem for the tube amp because It don't know what to do with these lower frequencies and it could lead to burning out the transformers.

And that could be a serious problem because you don't wanna burn out your tube amplifiers

@emergingsoul 
I’ve read similar things, but haven’t researched it much, so don’t claim to  understand the technical ramifications of that.

My motivation was the potential for improved clarity by way of reducing the demand on the amps and the midbass drivers from producing the large and power sucking lower frequencies, but if it prevents the transformers for letting out the magic smoke, all the better!   

The active crossover could have provided the high pass filtration to the tube amps with some added flexibility, but was concerned about the noise floor.  The silver mica caps seemed the simplest approach with good signal integrity and low noise.  Really happy with that simple mod. 

OP

you must try!!!

I own the 707stand mount version and I know the B&W house sound. The B&W sound is like a "V" shape sound equalization. so be careful on the choice of Tube amp for the Midrange/Tweeters. Your Parasound can drive the woofers as Parasound has a lot of current drive that can handle the B&W' but if you want a Tube amp, then look into a 300B or PP Rogue Audio power amps. another amp to consider are Prima luna. the 300B will give you the sweetness that most tube lovers are looking for. 

BUT beware, your PRE-AMO must be able to handle such a configuration. the ability to control independently the gain on each power amp is top priority.

good luck