My first response was based on the title of your thread. Now that you have opened your options, I can't help going back to and agreeing with Albert's first reply, which suggested a speaker change. Yes, the Vandersteens are amongst the truly great values, but, if they don't satisfy you they're not worth it. If your looking for something similar yet, with greater detail for under $2000, I'd suggest the Thiel 3.6's. BTW, I was in a simialr situation years ago, liked Vandy's, bought Thiels. Your room and desired placement, make the currently out of your budget Dunlavy SCIVA's worthy of a mention.
Trying to extract more from my Vandersteen
I've come to the realization that my ideal system is always 2 steps ahead of whatever my current system is. I am only satisfied with whatever updgrade for a few months, before I convince myself that I need to upgrade again. This is as exciting as it is unsettling.
My current system is as follows:
Vandersteen 2CE sig
McCormack DNA-1 deluxe
TAD-150 sig tube preamp
Eastern Electric Minimax tube CDP
Blue circle Power cords
MIT IC's and speaker cables
I had spent the past two years building this current system, and I had been fairly happy with it. I thank this system for introducing me to the world of jazz. Switching to tubes really helped my Vandersteens "sing". I had entertained the thought of replacing the McCormack with a tube amp, such as TAD-60 or other equivalent, but I never did. I was happy with my system and figured it would remain intact for awhile.
Then something had to rain on my happiness or complaceny. Due to a busy work schedule, I was forced to do most of my music listening either in my office through my old NHT and all rotel setup or at home through my Sennheiser headphones. After a couple months of this, I finally had time to do some listening through my main system. It had never been apparent to me before, but all the music coming out of the Vandersteens sounded "veiled". Before, I purchased my vandies, I read and heard all the criticisms regarding this "veiled" or "shrouded" sound. I never felt this was true about my vandersteen's until now.
So instead of making generalizations, I figure this is a good opportunity to "improve" my system. I am still more than happy with the soundstage, midrange clarity, and bass dynamics. Perhaps what I want to improve is higher frequency extension.
All this being said, I welcome all recommendations and comments that need not be limited to the following topics:
tube-rolling...
Pre-amp...
Any recommendations on pre-amps (tube or SS)?
How about a passive unit (Sonic Euphoria, Placette, Mccormack TLC)?
cables...
anyone recommend Purist?
Amp...
Any good integrated's out there?
What do you think about the Eastern Electric Integrated?
How about Krell KAV 400xi? For that matter, how does Krell match with Vandersteens?
Thanks for reading, and I look forward to reading your comments.
Drew
My current system is as follows:
Vandersteen 2CE sig
McCormack DNA-1 deluxe
TAD-150 sig tube preamp
Eastern Electric Minimax tube CDP
Blue circle Power cords
MIT IC's and speaker cables
I had spent the past two years building this current system, and I had been fairly happy with it. I thank this system for introducing me to the world of jazz. Switching to tubes really helped my Vandersteens "sing". I had entertained the thought of replacing the McCormack with a tube amp, such as TAD-60 or other equivalent, but I never did. I was happy with my system and figured it would remain intact for awhile.
Then something had to rain on my happiness or complaceny. Due to a busy work schedule, I was forced to do most of my music listening either in my office through my old NHT and all rotel setup or at home through my Sennheiser headphones. After a couple months of this, I finally had time to do some listening through my main system. It had never been apparent to me before, but all the music coming out of the Vandersteens sounded "veiled". Before, I purchased my vandies, I read and heard all the criticisms regarding this "veiled" or "shrouded" sound. I never felt this was true about my vandersteen's until now.
So instead of making generalizations, I figure this is a good opportunity to "improve" my system. I am still more than happy with the soundstage, midrange clarity, and bass dynamics. Perhaps what I want to improve is higher frequency extension.
All this being said, I welcome all recommendations and comments that need not be limited to the following topics:
tube-rolling...
Pre-amp...
Any recommendations on pre-amps (tube or SS)?
How about a passive unit (Sonic Euphoria, Placette, Mccormack TLC)?
cables...
anyone recommend Purist?
Amp...
Any good integrated's out there?
What do you think about the Eastern Electric Integrated?
How about Krell KAV 400xi? For that matter, how does Krell match with Vandersteens?
Thanks for reading, and I look forward to reading your comments.
Drew
77 responses Add your response
Thanks for all your insightful responses. So it seems there are 3 general suggestions. I will try to address each of them and provide info for more dialogue. Changing speakers: I hadn't given this a thought. I agree, the Vandersteen arguably gives you the best "bang for the buck" if you will. Yes, I would have to spend quite more money to better that, but despite my reservations... I'm saving for an engaement ring, I can budget up to $2000 for new or used speakers. My listening room is roughly 25 x 15ft, and my system can only fit along the longer wall. What are some suggestions? Anyone own Gallo reference 3/3.1, or can anyone comment on them? Are there people out there who switched from a 2CE sig to a 3A sig? What improvements did you hear? Keeping speakers and re-evaluate/re-calibrate listening perception: Krisjan and others make an interesting point. It is very possible that my listening perception or preference has changed/skewed due to listening to music through other systems. However, I am also inclined to think that my listening perception has been somewhat improving throughout the past couple years. In the past couple months I felt that my old NHT/Rotel system (my first "real" system) was very listenable, albiet a little lean. The Sennheiser HD650 headphones were driven straight from the phono out from my Eastern Electric CDP. It's sound is wonderfully flat throughout the mid and high FQ, but the bass can be overwhemling at times. Just two years ago my NHT/Rotel system was the best I had heard, well that was until I auditioned the Vandersteen. I hope my listening perception doesn't flip-flop so easily, but perhaps a recalibration is in order. I will keep your comments in mind when I listen through my current system. I would like to hear more of your thoughts. Keeping my current system and making minor tweaks/additions: Eagleman, thanks for your comments on tube rolling. I could be wrong, but I remember an old post you made regarding "high FQ roll-off" with your system. What changes did you end up making? I am quite a novice when it comes to room treatment. I would like to learn some more about this. Can anyone direct me to a good thread or website? I will test out different speaker placement this weekend. Thanks for the cable suggestions. I'm gonna have to start demoing some new cables before I conclude I must change them. Wow, I started out with what I thought were alot of qustions, but now I have even more. Thanks for all the comments... keep them coming. |
I was using McCormack amps with my Vandy's until I tried Channel Islands D200's. Personally, I think class D amps are a good match for Vandy's. They are very revealing amps and coupled with the Vandy's darker nature for me is a good combination.I'm using the 3 sigs, and the McCormack was a DNA 1 revA Gold |
It's already been said but I would agree with #1 accoustic treatments (Corners and first order reflection points) and speaker positioning are probably the cheapest upgrades! #2 Agree with Albert that cabling is not going to fix the problem... The MIT cables aren't the problem, if anything they would open up the top end and add detail. #3 Vandys are great speakers for the money that provide a very musical presentation. But they lack the detailed pinpoint imaging compared to much more expensive speakers. Start saving for speakers! Determine what you liked about your headphone setup and start listening to new speakers (ideally take them home for a demo). |
I'll also come down on the side that perhaps the system can be saved with current speakers. Most of the components in your system is more on the clean and clear side. I was at a Vandersteen event a week ago, and the dealer (Audio Connection) really seemed to understand how to get the best out of them. Just about all of my previous exposures to stock Vandersteens is the same as you are experiencing now, more on the dark and rich side than I really prefer. One of the things I noticed was the use of silver cabling. With that in mind, please try this first, replace the MIT loudspeaker cables with something more forward, such as Kimber 8TC. No, they're not silver, but they are quite affordable. I have been around systems that really sprang to life when the MIT cables were removed (the converse is also true, they were needed). Also, try toeing the speakers in, so that the tweeters are aiming right at your ears - this will extract the maximum amount of jump factor a speaker can provide, in addition to my belief that it also is tops when it comes to imaging. If these two things really opens things up, you may just be all set. If things are still a bit too laid back, you may want to consider moving to a different speaker at that point. Or, one additional option, Millersound. I have personally heard the improvements Bill Legall can wrest from a pair of Vandersteens, and in my opinion, they are most significant. Somehow, he is really able to get them to wake up. This would be far more cost effective than moving to another pair of speakers. |
I had almost exactly your system. the only difference was that I had the DNA-1 not deluxe. I have since gone to the TAD-60 AMp.At first I noticed the greater sense of air/ spaciousness compared to the Mccormack. Highs were a bit laid back. I messed around a bit with the placement, toe-in toe-out and was able o change/improve the sound. I changed tubes both in the AMp and pre. i am using some GTs from Upscale in the pre, Tung Sol 6550s, a tele 12AX7 and some RCA 12 AU7 cleartops in the amp. Soundstaging and attack improved, air and spaciousness improve even more. Now I am working on tweaks. Got some Electronic feet for the Amp and CD, a granite base for the Pre-power (stacked) and some solid wooden feet for the turntable. I also got some silver wire for the Amp-pre and TT pre connection. Now hearing some better balance to the system. Still a work in progress as i have not hit the speaker cable yet. What I have found out by experimenting. - Vandys do not promote listening fatigue. Bacause they are not normally bright I can listen for hours. - Changes occur at most every tweak. They sound only as good as your sources. One might never reach the peak of what they can do. - My ears do not find them veiled at all. I belong to the Houston Audio society and everytime I return home from a meeting, I find that my system sounds great to my ears. - I wouldn't trade them. I like the nuetral sound that I get from them and the way they change with differnt tweaks. - Placement is critical. Experiment. Of course they are not for everybody but, there are so many people with 2CE sigs, they must be doing something right. Eagleman |
I will be the contrarian here and suggest that your time of listening to an old NHT/Rotel system AND through headphones (especially) has thrown off your perception of what sounds natural/real. I think you should recalibrate your ears to what real acoustic instruments sound like before making any changes at all. Of course, this really only applies if you are trying to get real, natural sound from your setup. If all you want is to get more exciting sound than what you have, then have a blast changing whatever you want that meets that subjective requirement. Good luck, Mark |
Well, here is another vote for speakers. Your present electronics will support a fairly good system. However, choose carefully or you may end up in the group of audiophiles who go out and buy the 'best' and spend the rest of their audiophile life trying to find matching components. Good luck........ |
I will probably get some raised eyebrows for saying this--if you really like your speakers try some cheap tweaks. Insert a graphic equalizer in the signal path and boost up the highs. Try some silver based interconnects or straightwire cables, these will definitely bring out the highs. Lastly, if you have some tubes lying around try some different ones. If you have none of the above, try borrowing from a generous audiobud. All you are wasting is time. BTW, speaker placement is critical with these speakers as is the rake angle. A friend of mine has a pair of these in an all Rogue setup and it sounds too bright to me. These speakers have a metal dome tweeter and can put out plenty of highs. Anyhow, if you implement some of these, I'm sure you will see an improvement. Your equipment choices all look good, so no problem there. |
All good suggestions. I agree, it looks like better speakers are in you future. The rest of your system has evolved to the point where this is only a natural progression. IMHO, Vandys are nice and easy to listen to, but boring and bland for the most part. You should mention your room size and budget before anyone can reliably suggest a replacement. Oz |
After owning both the Vandy 1Cs and 2CE signatures my advice is to ensure proper set up and placement. I learned with the 1Cs that vertical orientation is critical to detail and image. This held true for the larger speakers also. I suggest this because my initial set up followed the instruction manual as I understood it. With some experimentation though, the sound improved significantly. If you haven't exhausted this avenue it will cost nothing but time. Still believe the 1Cs are one of the best values on the market, new or used. Good luck. |
Greetings, I have four suggestions for you, I use them all and they are all from Walker Audio and made a HUGE difference in my system. 1. Walker's contact treatment, get the best one, it makes a huge improvement. 2. Walker's High Definition Links HDLs, they made a subtle, but very worthwhile improvement. 3. Walker's Vivid CD treatment, goes a long way in getting rid of the veil you discribe. 4. Walker Talisman de-magnetizer, also increases clarity. And no I don't have any affiliation with Walker Audio. Happy Listening. |
My Dad has the 2ce sigs also. I hooked up a Bryston B-60 which delivers nice highs on my B&W CDM1nt's and although it sounded good...it still is as you say..."veiled". Interestingly enough...I recently swapped out the Bryston for my Dad's old Fisher 400 receiver and was really quite impressed to the bass & midrange improvement, but the highs were still not there. I love Vandersteens. I also had the 1b's for many years. I think that for the money that they are hard to beat and an excellent introductory speaker into high end audio. i have not heard the 3's 4's or 5's of any iteration so I'm not sure how they would sound but from my experience with the 1 and 2's I think that they are nice...although I agree with Albert & Nutella. just my 2c fwiw Ellery |
I think there is a chance that switching to other cables from MIT might remove that veil. My brother has Vandy 3A Sigs, AR LS-16 preamp + AR 100.2 amp, plus MIT cables. I think the system sounds a little "veiled", too. Try Fatwyre.com/The Cable Company's cable lending library to check out different cables for cheap. They essentially charge you a <5% rental fee to check out several different cables. I used them to try 4 digital cables valued from $75-450($850 total) and it only cost me ~$35 for two weeks of use. The rental fee can be applied towards a purchase if you like one of the samples. There really is no better way to check out different cables both in and beyond your price range. BTW, the guys that work at Fatwyre are experts for suggestions on what to try with your system. They never try to push anything on you and will suggest real budget performers. Ask for advice and take it seriously, they are great. |
Have you thought about or tried any room treatments? My buddy has Vandy 2CE Sigs, Rogue 99 Pre, Rouge 150 mono blocks and a Sim Audio CDP. He has be adding some room treatments lately and loves the results. He has done bass traps in the corners by the speakers and a couple of panels behind the speakers with some panels at the first reflection points yet to be done. Cleared up the bass. At first we thought it reduced the bass but, soon realized that it just cleaned things up. It also has better imaging and detail. Good luck. |
Hi Drew, You have a lot of questions on the table, and I will not respond to all. You have already implicated the Vandersteen's, ...perhaps Tyler's would suit you better (I have no experience with the Tyler's). The Krell integrated will definitaly not be an improvment in my opinion, but maybe a Gamut integrated will be. I use a Gamut 200 MKII (as does my friend with Vandersteen III Signatures - having switched from a Krell integrated 300i). The Gamut is very natural sounding. However, I think the McCormick is hard to beat at the price. I have no experience with your other components. I do highly recommend Purist Cables, but really belive that you shoud address your speaker issues first. Good Luck, Mark |
Drew, It had never been apparent to me before, but all the music coming out of the Vandersteen sounded "veiled." Before, I purchased my vandies, I read and heard all the criticisms regarding this "veiled" or "shrouded" sound. I never felt this was true about my Vandersteens until now. You may have pointed out the source of the problem with your own words. I love the Vandy but perhaps you've evolved to the point a more transparent speaker is in your future. Unfortunately most speakers that beat the Vandy cost a lot more. The Vandy is one of the great values in today's high end market. Changing to Purist cables is not going to solve this problem. I love Purist cables but their job is not to change the sound from dark to bright (or the other way around). I would save my money for another speaker if you've decided to rebalance your system. |