Magister, as posted in the Kleos Sibilance thread, I too have ordered a Star refurb. I am having them put an SME 309 on it. A bit above your price limit unless you can talk Donna into it. The SME's work well on the Sota's and have a long history the Origins can't claim.
BTW, Donna said the series III motor is not as stable so you may want to spring for the series V if you didn't. Since you have been using a SAMA and I have the 300RPM Aries motor that comes with the Scoutmaster, we are good candidates for a better motor on the Star.
Please let us know what you are considering cartridge wise. The Delos would be a good choice if you do not want to spend for the Kleos.
Have a good whatever,
Robert |
There is a review in the current TAS of a SOTA table and the Origin Live Encounter and OL1 if that helps. I have the Encounter arm, but on an Origin Live table and my analog rig makes me love the time listening to vinyl. |
Thanks everyone for all the replies. I have decided to go with a refurbished Sota Star. I've ordered it and am now looking for a tonearm and cartridge. I don't want to spend huge amounts on an arm right now (I can upgrade later if I decide to keep the table for the long term).
I've been looking at the Origin Live Encounter. If anyone has used this arm with a Sota, I'd appreciate comments; or other suggestions below $2000.
David |
I'm sorry man, it must be my bad English (actually Greeklish!)
Thank you & my apologies for my bad attitude.
OK. Lets crank some Jimi now : "Hey Baby (New Rising Sun)"
George |
Again geoch , there must be a comprehension issue, i never asked you to follow , i ask you to cut the condecension, not everyone is going to buy into the ID euphoria and there is nothing wrong if they dont.
|
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Mickeyf, I apologize if I sounded a bit harsh. However, we can move on. I am well aware of the theoretical issues you bring up. That's why listening and forming one's own opinion based on actual observation is so important. Between the cogging at a higher rate and the disadvantages of the belt itself (stretching, creeping, slippage), some others would make an argument based on "theory" that the belt drive technology is also inherently flawed. All I and others are saying in response to your assertions is have a listen to one of these other types of tables. I know too many dyed in the wool audiophiles (other than me) who have ditched their high end belt-drive tables in favor of an idler or a direct-drive to be convinced by your hypothetical arguments. |
Geoch: "DO NOT mention the F***ing LP12. It is the master of this disaster that we pay for all these years of blindness & manipulation." BRAVO!! ____ |
Mickeyf,
I'm not lying to you or anyone by saying I can hear the pitch change on my 24kg platter.
The stylus drag could never be costant. It depends by the level, the freq, & the whole activity that's in the LP groove at the moment.
Weseixas,
No no no my friend, you doesn't miss your target !
I shout loudly my preference for IDLER DRIVE, PASSIVE LINE PRE, DHT SET, FULL RANGE SPEAKERS.
Do you think that we all must follow your own findings ?
Or that this or any other forum is available only to those that are politicaly correct with the flock ?
Should I have any reason to affraid to express my own findings ?
OK, enough with this. It's not a dominance game between us or our findings, but I think anyone has the wright to speak out fearless even if it is in contrary to the flocks.
I think we have to be honest to our self & express our findings freely, otherwise what's the point of our post ?
Anyway, peace to you and your system.
George |
Lewm, I think you may be mistaking me for someone else with your first comment directed at me, however I do still appreciate your job offer.
Although I do believe DDs came a long way with control of speed, it is not all that diffult a concept to understand why a belt drive in general is less immune to 'cogging' than a direct drive. Left uncontrolled, a direct drive would pass from pole-to-pole in a 24 pole motor approximately once every two seconds. with a roughly 38 inch perimeter circumference that would equal about every inch as well, and should be quite obvious to someone whose powers of observation allow them to visibly detect stylus drag on a 22kg platter. The belt drive motor spins at up to 600 rpm in some cases with a circumference of the spinning shaft of less than a cm in most cases. The perception of cogging is now in milliseconds and then it is insulated by the belt. That would be the main difference.
TTWeights is a CNC machine shop in Ontario, who about 2-3 years ago started making weight clamps for turntables, perhaps as a bolster in the downturn of the auto industry. Im guessing the owner is an audio enthusiast who picked up on the current trends, who knows if he has the knowledge to design a really good turntable. He has gone very rapidly from machining record weights to purporting to be a designer of high end turntables.
'Stylus drag' seems to be the principal theoretical benefit of rim drive designs. Personally I think it's hooey. If it was constant it would not be perceivable and to suggest a minute change in a track would alter the speed of a turning 22 kg massive platter is frankly not believable.
I'm certain I will enjoy the KAB if I do pick one up for a try. I might even take up scratchin'. |
Geoch ,
Boss of the thread ? I think you got my post wrong, no offense was intended.. my comment were not directed at anyone per se , just in general.
My apologies ..
regard, |
There is no argument that LP12/Ittok LVII betters a stock Lenco with it's low quality tone arm & it's feathery light plinth.
Sorry, I thought we were both inteligent people.
I'm not the casual player of your early years, neither I delude my self when I find that I took the wrong way.
Your findings over the last 30 years makes you the boss of the thread.
The progress is possible only through research by the next Guru that he has no fear of the boss.
I should consider my self stupid when I felt that I have something to offer to this community.
Next time I'll ask for your permission first. |
Lewm,
The LP12 is still a great sounding table today , a good friend has one and it still charms the soul and a very good deal used i might add.
We should all rejoice that nail dragging thru a groove is still with us 30 yrs after it's imminent death was announced.. :)
Regards, |
Geoch,
I can assure you , at the time the LP12 was superior sounding to my lenco ( 77), there were no internet, so we had no collective knowledge nor ignorance as we have today. Equipment were bought and sold after many shootout's and the lesser was then disregarded, nothing was ever purchased on impulse as most seem to do today and almost everyone i knew back then was into hi-fi(there was nothing else really) so most decisions were never blind and the Lenco lost out to the LP12 at the time....
Now today it seems you either follow internet folklore or you are considered stupid, well i have been around this game along time, more than just a casual player and what has become obvious to me is that no topology has a lock on good sound there is no magic wand in tubes,SS,Digital or analog, the real change for me over the last 35 yrs is the "tone" when one disagrees with the flock.
Shout the merits of ID, the condescension to BD or DD TT is not necessary nor warranted.
Regards,
PS: Maybe in 20 yrs some upstart TT guru will be on the Gon proclaiming how great his LP12 sounds after certain Home depot mods..... :) |
Yeah...Peace brother.
Life goes on...
Dedication : "Carry On" by CS&N |
It's really a matter of one's personal taste in music reproduction, ancillary equipment, etc. I certainly agree that any of the 3 technologies can be made to sound very good such that there will be some among us who prefer any one of the 3 over the other 2. Funny you should mention the LP12. I heard one at RMAF. It caught my attention because I turned to it to see if I was listening to a Lenco. It has the good qualities of a Lenco in an effective plinth, but the properly set up Lenco might give a bit more of what I like. Still, the LP12 sounded very good. |
The only advantage of BD over ID is the quiet drive. But is NO more a REAL MOTOR DRIVE that operates the platter, actually, exactly the opposite happens : The inertia of the platter guides the belt to creep on the motor's pulley and the resulting speed is (un)controlled by this mix.
But yes, me too I also hear great sound from Micro Seiki, Simon York, Pink Triangle Belt Drives. The point is that most of the critical design decisions by manufactures, are DIRECTED BY THE PROFIT & this is the only reason that we were stacked in progress for 3 decades.
And please Weseixas, you are not alone doing a wrong move downsising your source, me too I change my Denon DP 80 for an inferior Belt Drive, but today I've found the courage to accept my mistake. But NO. DO NOT mention the F***ing LP12. It is the master of this disaster that we pay for all these years of blindness & manipulation.
"What the people like" is usualy a manipulated zone at all the expressions of human's life. Of course it's sure enough, if the only DD or ID turntables are vintage & ugly & requiring a huge refreshing effort in order to perform their potentials, it's more than expected, most of the people to discard them as nostalgic & antique items.
It's about time for manufactures to understand that people are asking for new examples of DD & ID at last.
Now I want to dedicate "wooden ships" by Jefferson Airplane to those who keep the faith for a better audio world. |
The only thing proven is that DD,BD,ID, can sound good..
I don't think i will be throwing away my Wilson Benesch as i did my lenco 30+ yrs ago. At the time an LP12 would walk all over it. Obvious today that people can and do get great sound from DD, BD,ID tables and we can ping pong the advantages back and forth all night it wont change what people prefer and or like.
Enjoy the moment ...
Regards, |
Mickeyf, It must be nice to know stuff without actually experiencing it. You can get a job in the circus. I know this is a waste of my time, but please tell me how and why a belt-drive turntable motor is immune to cogging, whereas it is a major bugaboo only of direct-drive (and I suppose idler-drive turntables too, since you seem to know all about them as well). And if you think direct-drive turntables are disappearing as a class (at a faster rate than belt-drives), you are mistaken. I don't think Goldmund has made ANY turntable for years save for a revival of their megabuck Reference, so that is not a good example of a trend. However, visit Teres, Brinkmann, or Steve Dobbins' websites for evidence of new and high quality dd's. Plus note that Teres and VPI (as you do mention) are heavily emphasizing the rim drive option vs their standard belt-drive products. Also take a look at the many rim/idler drive turntables now made by TTWeights. Report back after you have actually auditioned the KAB 1200. |
Paul,
Thank you for your reply.
Should I asume that you downgrade from Slate OMA/PTP3/3012 going to Birch Ply TD124/3009 ? Why you do that & if it was really a step down, why then you accept the Thorens as your final TT ?
I'm curious 'cause I've went from the Symphonic Line RG6 to the Thorens TD124 II also, & I've had plans to sell it for a (Nantais REF, OMA Anatase, Dobbins L70, Artisan Fidelity DCHM L75) Lenco. Not 'cause I'm not satisfied,(it makes me smile for the negative progression over it's 45 years) but the Thorens provides a more restricted ground for experiments. It is more intergrated & less tolerable to tweeks within it's limits.
(Of course I've allready modified every possible part of it)
But the main reason is that the armboard can't accept my Pluto 9A without been hardly abused, together with the upper platter. I've put the 12" Reed 3Q & it was a real joy, but my beloved Colibri XPP has to go and my Pluto also.
It's not an easy decision : Thorens/Reed 12"/Goldfinger or Lenco/Pluto 9.5"/Colibri ?
Unfortunatelly I don't have the Lenco to compare, and to keep over than one turntable is out of the question.
Anyway I don't expect to solve this dillema without having both side by side. (this requires to trade my S.L RG6 for Lenco). But I really can't figure why you abandoned the OMA Lenco in favor for the Thorens & the 3012 for the 3009 !
Best Regards
George
{ My apologies to the thread for this out of topic reply. } |
quote lewm: "The stator or magnet part of the motor is actually part of the inert platter itself or is firmly mated to it."
I assume this is when it is both inert and in motion, either way how could it be any more directly-coupled than that? The principal problem with direct drive turntables when they were introduced was 'cogging' created by movement between the magnetic poles of the motor. So they reduced the problem by adding additional poles to the motor. I think around 24 was thought to be enough, however that's still 24 cogs in around 2 seconds. I can think of 1 high-end DD turntable manufacturer only(Goldmund) and one other mass-producer that has a quite romantic following (more initially with DJs) and I understand they have announced they are going to discontinue building their tables (notwithstanding the vinyl resurgence). Their romantic resale value should rise even more accordingly.
As far as rim-drives go, this is mostly a market of diy/garage builders based around 40 year old designs
rebuilding salvageable $50 (c 1960)tables. Oh, I do hear VPI offers a rim drive option on one of its pricier setups. Either way, its a wheel, directly driven by a motor and the wheel makes direct contact with the platter.
Anyway, I actually am thinking seriously about trying a KAB 1200 myself in one of my systems. |
I had them a year apart. The Lenco was definitely quieter - it was silent - but it was also in a massive slate plinth and the total cost over the Thorens setup was double. The Thorens is still very quiet.
I can't speak beyond that due to the time difference and the fact that they had different arms and carts.
If you want the top-tier solution (and no effort required) the OMA Lenco might be impossible to top.
I intend the Thorens to be my last table. Unless something breaks that I can't fix or get parts to fix. |
Hi Paul,
Can you please inform us for your experience between Lenco & Thorens ?
Thank you in advance
George |
Have to 2nd (3rd?) the idler recommendation. If you like drive & dynamics (and these are pretty important qualities for both jazz and classical) these tables excel and it takes a lot more money in a belt-driven table to match them if it's even possible.
Early this year I bought a Thorens 124 II with an SME arm and put it in a lightweight baltic birch plinth. With a cheap Shure V15 (bought with replacement stylus for under $150) it is stellar in all areas. It is very quiet too after relubing. |
Dear Mickeyf, With reference to your post up the page wherein you assert that the "motor is solidly coupled to the platter" in a direct-drive design and infer that this is a problem, I urge you to remove the platter from a high quality direct drive turntable and really think about what is going on. The platter is riding on the spindle suspended on a bearing, just exactly as it does in a belt-drive turntable. The stator or magnet part of the motor is actually part of the inert platter itself or is firmly mated to it. The rotor or coils surround the base of the spindle but make no contact with it at all. In sum, the drive system has no motion independent of that of the platter, and there is no physical contact between the two drive elements. Please tell me how this is worse than the design of a belt-drive turntable, where in addition to the platter riding on spindle/bearing, we have a belt that in theory can transmit vibrations of a much higher rpm motor to the rim of the platter. (Another advantage of dd is the slower-rotating motor, which can therefore also be quieter than that of a belt-drive.) I don't say that this proves dd is better than bd, but I do say that somewhere along the way a myth has been created re there being a problem with the proximity of the motor to the spindle. I think the myth took root back in the late 80s, when manufacturers started to sell us on belt-drive over dd. |
What motor....
You mean the coin size, flea power toy of ALL Belt Drives ?
This is not a motor for this purpose.
It is just an easy-money decision of our corrupted times. |
Inertia is from the flywheel effect of the platter, the torque comes from the motor system... |
Wrong!
The word is not "Torque"
The word is : "Ιnertia" |
I would love to hear from someone who has only changed the TT, same armboard/amr/cartridge combination.
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Canam ,
With a high mass platter and big motor the word "Torque" comes to mind with BD, TT and or any TT for that matter.
An idler cannot compensate unless it's motor has a closeloop/ servo/speed control system..
Regards, |
"...and suggest you were pre-conditioned..." Well this amounts to calling me non-objective - you need to have hard evidence before you do that!!! Given this accusation, I'll "stick my neck out" and say you're the one being non-objective and therefore dogmatic in your stance. This is my last post on this issue. |
Mickeyf, where do you find "actual measurements ... using conventional testing equipment" of turntables in ANY medium these days? Yeah, I use an idler TT (replinthed Lenco) after it totally destroyed an early VPI TNT. And I loved that TNT for years. |
The question is : Have you ever hear one of the tables mentioned ? |
I'll stick my neck way out and suggest you were-preconditioned to expect that and you wanted to hear it (without knowing which tables you are talking about), and I am not trying to be insulting, just practical. I do think it is a credit to some of the upgrade/rebuild guys working on Lenco's and Garrards that they can apparently remove a lot of the foibles (wow, rumble, flutter), although I have yet to stumble on any reviews where 'actual measurements' were made using conventional testing equipment. |
Re drag force of stylus - When I first read of this phenomenon, I didn't believe it would make enough of a difference to hear, but it's the only plausible explanation for what I am hearing in my system between the idler and the belt drive table I used to have. It was so clear to me, I was stunned by the difference - and I'm not an experienced listener. |
I can clearly hear this happening on my 24 kg platter ! |
Are you telling me the drag force of a delicate stylus at say 2 grams would alter the speed of a moving disc at 4000 gms or 10,000 grams (roughly the weight of my platter). I would bet the friction required to do that would tear the tip right off the stylus.
Do you really believe this? |
Why do you call speed stability problems with belt drives a myth? Since there is no direct coupling between the motor and platter the motor/belt cannot respond to changes in the drag force from the stylus - with more flexible belts this gets worse. And I have heard this difference directly. Maybe there are belt drive TT's I haven't heard that are better, but I suspect at much higher costs than the rebuilt idlers. And there is anecdotal evidence to suggest that properly plinthed idler TT's are "world beaters" with some very expensive tables losing shootouts to the idlers. But, as I said earlier, my primary evidence is what I heard directly in my system. |
Sure, in both cases the motor is more or less solidly coupled directly to the platter either through the DD shaft or through the quite solid coupling wheel. In belt drive it is decoupled by the belt., why would a properly designed belt drive have speed stability issues??? where does this myth arise from? |
Mickeyf; I'm not sure what your point is in your most recent post re thinking about how an idler or DD functions? Is this supposed to debunk the designs? If I think about the designs, I see a belt driven table having speed stability issues, I see a DD table solve this but have vibration issues (a good plinth can reduce this), and I see (and hear) the lenco idler design in a good plinth solve both these issues.
Also, what's wrong with "heavily modified" and a big plinth if the sound can be improved so much? Isn't that most important?
Incidentally, a good plinth does not have to be as big as the Nantais design. |
Oh did I say debunker? Just think about how an idler wheel functions or a DD for that matter. Virtually all of these designs are heavily modified in plinth, etc, etc, etc. Also note the size of these nantais designs and the Op's space requirements. |
Dear Magister, I am not so dogmatic as some of the others re direct- and idler-drive turntables vs belt-drive ones. I merely suggest that you try one of the other two species to go along with your VPI, if you want something really different from what you already own. IMO, there are many belt-drive turntables worthy of admiration. The nice thing is that if you are less than satisfied, you can usually recoup your investment in a vintage tt. But if you buy a quality dd or idler set-up, I don't think you will be re-selling in the near future post-purchase. |
If the OP/other is inclined to try DD, two other excellent choices are the Luxman PD-441 and the even better PD-444. Very musical. Somewhat hard to come by, though. |
No Doubt in my camp DD is the way to go.
I would show a little patience & wait till after the first of the year. There will be a new table & maybe tables at CES.
Good Luck In your search. |
LOL.. :)
So Belt drive is now bad, idler wheel tables are good .....
Yeah !!! |
This is very interesting! I knew there had been a resurgence of interest in direct drive turntables -- and that's clear from the replies here. Lots to think about.
Thanks - David |
|
Well, first of all :
I know you like your VPI, you are satisfied, e.t.c
--------------[ GET RID OF IT WHILE YOU CAN ]---------------
Today not tommorow ! Because people are starting to recover from the Belt Drive illness & tommorow it will be late.
Get a new start with :
1). Heavily modified LENCO L75
2). Replinthed - restored GARRARD 401
3). Replinthed - restored THORENS TD 124 II
4). DENON DP 80 / SME 312 S
5). TECHNICS SP 10 MkII / SME V
6). PINK TRIANGLE PT-TOO / SME IV ( My absolute MINIMUM )
Yes ! Everything you've heard about IDLERS & DD is true !!!
I wish that I could trade my Symphonic Line RG 6, for a Jean Nantais LENCO REFERENCE ... But there are no any suckers around ... (and I don't have the time, the knowledge, or even the strength to start this project).
Best Regards & Good Luck
George |
The Origin live table I set up was the Sovereign. I hear their tables all have very similar sound. |
Lenco, Garrard, direct drive (best of the Denon, Sony, Pioneer, Yamaha, Kenwood, Technics, etc). Try something REALLY different, and you won't go back to belt-drive. Life is short. |
