It's interesting Pete to hear analogue presentation which encompasses a lot of the neutrality of digital, serving only to make lp replay even further ahead of the game than cd, than my old tt, which in many respects was well behind the pace of my cdp.
Xoverless spkrs are only adding to the realistic tonality on offer, and balanced power is eliminating restrictions to the dynamics of the presentation.
Other than possible cart/phono stage/cabling upgrades, I think I'm getting there.
Stylus retipping/cantilever upgrading to my Transfiguration Orpheus and Zu Denon 103 carts are next on the agenda, plus demo of Tom Evans Mastergroove phono, and as a contrast, the Soundsmith Straingauge SG200 cart, which dispenses with a phono stage. |
Glad you like your non belt TT and Xoverless speakers. They must be awesome. Congratulations. |
Hi everyone. As I've moved to non-belt technology for listening to lps, I'm 'getting' what all the afficionados of DD, idler and rim have been trying to promote over the last few years, namely that a radically different presentation for lps is possible, removing certain colourations to open up the full bloom of analogue.
This tt, along with my full range driver, xoverless Zu spkrs, and move to balanced power are finally giving me a sound I can totally relax with and not feel compelled to upgrade further.
In respect of the tt, I'm confident I'll never go back to belt drive again. |
Lewm, that's a very good point. Especially with all in one cdp's (and carts) it's increasingly getting harder and harder to make an audition, let alone a choice to buy.
I'd have to ensure a no quibble return policy if dissatisfied.
From reading between the lines, at a reasonable price point, the Eera Tentation and Neodio NR22 do seem to be getting plaudits from die hard analogue nuts who do claim they get close to analogue tonal density and discrimination as the tts they are running. Both are championed by true fans of analogue.
But yes, this could all be misleading. |
Spirit, I am confounded as to how you can know that the 2 or 3 very esoteric cdp's that you named can compete with vinyl where all others fail, in your view, including your own very well regarded and very expensive rig. Surely you are not willing to take the unvarnished opinion of some total stranger writing on the internet. |
Redglobe, Vic is away on holiday, and will reopen his Ebay shop on his return. |
Pete, the Terminator linear arm had been sold for a number of years prior to the Salvation tt being perfected. There are hundreds of the arm on non Trans Fi tts. I'm not to sure in reverse if many Salvations are set up other than with the Terminator, however. But, it would be possible to do so.
I have often thought what proportion of the near state of the art performance is wrought by the arm only, and how much by the tt. However I'm so happy with the combination I'm not too bothered by the answer. There is no doubt that a great synergy is going on allowing the full bloom of analogue to be maximised while introducing a whole new presentation of neutrality normally reserved for good digital. |
Spirit, Have you heard your table with a different arm or your arm on a different table? I ask because I wonder if anyone has separated the sound of each or are they only sold as a "system"? |
Redglobe, I'll be contacting Vic next week, I'll keep you posted.
I see others are enjoying their NVS dd tt's for 8x price of the Salvation, I'll keep enjoying mine at a real world price to achieve sonic nirvana! |
Hi Spirit,
I see that Vic removed all of his items for sale (tonearm, tonearm wires, etc) on Ebay. Can you give any insight for the shut down? Is he still going to sell his gear and turntable? |
Well after a lot of research on the web, I believe I may have found 3 players that will get me close to analogue-like satisfaction. Out of my price range is the Stahl Tek Vekian and Opus lines. But more affordable are the Neodio NR22 and Eera Tentation. From what I can glean of these players, they may be well ahead of much costlier options in discriminating tonally between recordings, eliminating the homogeneity and 'whiteness' so endemic across the majority of digital.
I'm always so dismayed that I have to turn the volume up when playing cd due to it's lack of presence compared to analogue, but when I do, the thinness of the soundstage then gets magnified. Also I hate that a digital smoothness gets superimposed on all recordings, leading to a false uniformness of sound between different discs.
The Neodio and Eera seem to avoid these pitfalls. |
If what you say about your TT/arm is correct, you won't find digital that can compete, IMO. |
Well, there's only one negative wrt this tt/arm: it's so good that it's seriously outclassing my digital (EMM Labs CDSA SE).
With my previous belt drive Orbe/SME V, much as i still put lp ahead of cd, there were so many occasions where digital was undoubtedly better than analogue, especially in the areas of neutrality (lack of artificial midbass warmth) and stability of soundstage (esp. lack of wavering of piano notes and end of side distortion).
But now I believe I've retained all that makes analogue so seductively better than digital, and added to the mix many of the positive attributes inherent in digital.
The end result is...I need to upgrade my digital, GRR! Any how I have an idea of a player that may really bridge the quality gap of digital to analogue. |
Yes Pete. I've been running Zu Definitions Mk2s since 2007, and have moved up to the new Def4s. I realise statements like 'game changer' could be viewed as a little over the top, but when your world view of audio is changed radically and irreversibly, that's the best label I can use.
My 3 'game changers' are, firstly the Zu spkrs, going to full range, xoverless drivers really set the scene for fully enjoying density of tone and unrestricted dynamics in a speaker system for the first time, now fully realised in the new Def4s; secondly, going to full balanced power with a 4kVA transformer, took me beyond the clarity of my previous audiophile power conditioner, and for first time gave me unconstricted dynamics allowing that 'after midnight' sound all day long; and now, moving away from belt drive/pivoted tonearms to direct rim drive/linear tracking tonearm, IMHO really highlighting all that's positive with analogue, but for first time combining it with the many virtues of digital, to almost be a new medium in itself. |
Spirit, are your new speakers the Zu speakers without crossovers that you mentioned earlier as real game-changers along with your new turntable/arm combination? |
Sgunther, I totally agree with you re the Salvation/Terminator being on the edge of state of the art. I've not heard more OTT designs like the Wave Kinetics NVS and Lumenwhite Mystere, but I'm confident Vic's babies can hold their head up high in this company. And at it's price point, I'm confident it is without peer.
I'm in the middle of installing/bedding in new spkrs, so hunt for ultimate cart/phono stage may have to wait. No problem, my Zu modded denon 103 is performing VERY well.
I'm soon to retip with Paratrace stylus and upgrade with white sapphire cantilever to both my Zu and old Transfiguration Orpheus, and will be auditioning the Tom Evans Master Groove phono stage as poss. upgrade to my Groove Plus SRX.
But I'm most curious to hear the Soundsmith Straingauge SG-200, and final choice will come down to these options.
I'm fairly confident Peter's Straingauge may be just the ticket since it is fast, transparent and neutral, just the attributes the tt/arm display in spades.
So glad to hear from you seconding my positive appraisal of this kit, in my system a real game changer. |
Spirit
You have gone quite. Where are you in your cartridge quest. I have had an Ortofon Winfield PW on my salvation/terminator rig for about a month. I keep thinking it can't get any better and then it does. All it takes is money. As my journey through this audio hobby progresses I am drawn more and more to enthusiast like Vic who are talented and are making equipment because they love it not to make bundles of money. It is satisfying because I believe I am getting a turntable in this case, that is on the edge of state of the art at a very reasonable price and I have something that is very unique. The down side although minimal in my opinion is that the TT and arm have an industrial look, the setup take some getting used to, putting records on and off take a little extra concentration and the resale market could be limited versus a mainstream manufacturer. Minor drawbacks in by opinion when you hear the music it produces. Grover Huffman seems to fall in this same category and I intend to audition some of his cables soon. |
Listening intently to the Salvation/Terminator. It's not a perfect component by any means, but picking up plenty of auditory clues which heighten the illusion of reality, certainly when compared to my belt drive. Firstly, snare drum - I can really hear the impact of stick on skin followed by sizzle of snare wires. As a drummer myself, I'm really getting an authentic feeling for this most difficult of instruments to replicate. And secondly, really hearing the ambience and reflections in concert halls in live recordings.
Now, I know all this is perfectly possible with excellent belt drive as well, it's just that I'm really happy such an uncoloured revealing sound is in my living room as close to reality, certainly at it's price level, and maybe well beyond, I'm likely to get. |
Redglobe, I would imagine that Vic could make a 1-2" longer Terminator air manifold for use with the GEM's outboard arm pod or to increase clearance between the arm wand and a periphery ring. |
If an accident happens while loading an LP, it will likely be a scratch against the lowest point-- the steel tip of the long cue bar. A good precaution is to slip a bit of soft plastic heat-shrink or rubber hose over the cue bar tip.
BTW, anyone shy about an air bearing tonearm may fear that an interruption of the air supply will cause the stylus to stick destructively in the goove. This is not a problem with Terminator. In this event the vertical point bearing continues to function, causing a light skip without damage. |
Hi Pete, the arm wand sits over an inch clear to the right of the platter when not in use/ready to cue up, so no real chance of damage unless you're overly clumsy.
What is more of an issue is that the arm rig is fixed over the platter ie can't be swung away, and the tube the arm wand slides horizontally along from right to left as lp plays sits just over an inch above the record.
This means that an lp must be in effect slid horizontally, then dropped over the spindle, not for the faint hearted or when you're distracted.
This takes some getting used to, but the main downside is if the lp is a tight fit on the spindle - in these circumstances it takes some seconds to tilt and twist it away so as not to release so fast it clips the tube. |
Spirit, during the loading of an LP, what kind of protection does the stylus have? It sounds from your description as though the cartridge is exposed to the LP being slid in horizontally. Is this correct? And if so, are you ever nervous about accidentally hitting the stylus and snapping the cantilever off? |
Redglobe, on examing the tt/platter, I'm confident it could support the outer ring. There's about an inch and a half between the outside of an lp to any obstruction eg arm pod.
But there is one practical issue. The Terminator arm is fixed horizontally over the platter, and a bar runs parallel with platter just an inch above the apex of the points of the Resomat (will be similar height above platter if one removes mat and lowers vta of arm to compensate).
In effect one has to slide lp horizontally onto platter spindle, it can't be dropped on vertically from above conventionally since arm apparatus is fixed.
It may be quite a struggle to slide ring on easily without catching lp inadverdently, this may be ultimately too frustrating in the long run.
In fact, this is the only downside of the whole rig, a need to emulate a little limbo dancing with the lp when placing it on the platter/spindle, and removing it later. It just can't be done in a rush, or when distracted. |
Spirit,
The Salvation is very appealing to me because of my positive experience with the TTWeights GEM, rim drive. The short coming of the GEM is the independent tone-arm pod which would make a challenge using the T3 Pro.
My interest in the Salvation is its compatibility with the outer ring that I have. Would it fit on the Salvation? It is 13 3/4" in diameter and 7/8" tall (this is the overall dimension with the setting disc. It is removed during play.). The ring can be viewed on the TTWeights website (it is the most massive version).
Your feedback would be greatly appreciated. |
Hi Lewm, my apologies if my prev. comment sounded like I was showing lack of patience, nothing could be further from the truth. I fully understand that I appear to be in a party of one as someone who has heard it and then bought it. I know that there are other owners out there lurking, but maybe not bothering to put finger to keyboard.
No, in a gentler way what I was trying to say was that Vic developed the tt/arm without the Resomat to begin with, and it sounded fine then. I'm sure some careful experimentation may lead to outcomes where clamping etc. will lead to performance hikes beyond the Resomat. Me? The Resomat seems to do a great job in the synergy of the whole setup, so I don't feel too much need to tinker.
I can tell you the cessation of desire to tweak is a MASSIVE compliment to this tt, I'm so glad I'm getting off this particular upgrade merry-go-round (going in ever increasing dizzy circles since 1995!).
My other comment really was just suprise that the mat is generating most comments when it's the least significant contributor to the overall sound alongside the direct rim drive motor, and the arm implementation. |
Spirit, Most of us are in no position to join you in praise of the Salvation, because most of us, nearly all of us, have not seen or heard it, But I think we get the idea that you like it. However, you are correct to note that many of us, including me, have been straying OT. Sorry for that.
Keep in mind what I noted earlier in this thread, the Resomat is a duplicate to a platter used in a very early and budget level Transcriptors turntable. I don't recall the model name or number. Someone published a photo of the tt on Vinyl Asylum a week or two ago, and I was shocked, shocked I tell you, to see the spitting image of a Resomat serving as the entire platter. Very likely the Transcriptors "influenced" Vic's thinking, to say the least. |
This thread is taking a, shall I say, overly fastidious direction. I'm a little suprised the Resomat is taking up so much discussion, it's a $50 add on. The Salvation can run without it, so those unsure, for good reason about the Resomat's pracicality, could always use the Salvation with traditional clamping methods. Vic's Salvation design predates the Resomat by a year, he only added it later. |
Dear Dover, where can I buy a precision grinder for vinyl? I think your idea is great, only I would have used the other copy of each record. You could grind down each of the two LPs on opposite sides, then glue the one with the un-ground side A to the one with the unground side B so as to create a ~360-gm LP, in the case where you start with two 180-gm copies. Saves storage space, too. |
I tend to agree with Lewms point regarding the slightly added distortion may sometimes be preferred by the audience.
I can share my experience on that. When I was using a relatively smaller speaker, I got pretty good bass with all the excitement coming with it. When I upgraded to a larger speaker, it was obvious that the bass went lower, more powerful, and with more ease, all very positive improvements. However, the excitement just seemed to diminish a bit. I suspected that the bass was actually stressing the smaller speaker a bit, and with the speaker being on the edge, it actually added to the excitement level! |
Dgarretson, thank you for the suggestion. I have a Dwight Yoakam record that gets me through the night quite nicely thanks. |
Dover, taken with a small dose of Lithium, that should get you through the night. |
For my favourite records I precision ground one side of each record flat, acccurate to 3 micron, and then cold welded these to lexan blanks, 4.5mm thick. I purchased 2 of every record to ensure I could listen to both sides. The net result is far better coupling and energy flow to the platter, the improvement to sound is absolutely amazing, no clamps required, no warps. |
The coupling points used on Resomat complicate the discussion. There are six vinyl acetate points at the lead-in grooves and three in the run-out section. Points are generally accepted as viable in other contexts of audio, so why not for an LP?
Wherever I have used points I find that mass loading improves things. My experience of Reso-Mat without clamping was similar to TheKong's. I heard an improvement in clarity at the cost of paleness or a slight loss of embodiment. In addition, while Vic believes that the unweighted record doesn't slip against the points, I'm not so sure. The points have a light grip on the LP relative to a flat mat or platter surface. Unfortunately I have no fancy tools like Timeline to quantify any effect on transient speed stablity.
Adding a light clamping force improves embodiment, levels the LP, and adds a reassuring bit of grip. Excessive clamping sucks the life out of it. |
Thekong has a good point. Here is where art and science intersect. Ideally, you want the LP to be completely inert and for all mechanical energy put into it by stylus motion to be drained away so as not to come back to the stylus tip after resonating around the LP. (I guess this is the case; one could argue the point.) But I think the art of music reproduction involves a dirty little secret: to some degree the distortions created by various components in the chain can serendipitously add to the sense of reality, of being in the presence of the musicians. Those distortions should be controlled but not entirely eliminated, if verisimilitude is the goal. The Resomat could in some cases enhance the sense of reality by the very fact that it impedes loss of mechanical energy from the LP into the platter.
Thekong, I am using a Boston Audio Mat1 on my slate Lenco. I am thinking about giving the Resomat a try. Thanks for your report. I would think that the Resomat might be especially effective on an idler, but maybe not. |
Along the lines of Kong and Nandric, these are other considerations of playing warped records and concept of clamping/bonding the LP to the platter (assuming a sonically inert platter).
The original lacquer is flat, making it perpendicular to the cutting knife: front to back, and left to right.
However, a floating and warped LP is no longer flat. Most LPs are not flat.
This changes the azimuth, the VTA of the stylus, and the vertical tracking force, dynamically. This should result in lost music retrieval.
With the short cantilever of the T3 pro and a warped record that undulates, there are changes in the perpendicular angle, front to back, of the stylus in the groove. So, when dealing with millionths of an inch of cut music, this would result in lost music retrieval. It also induces an artificial frequency, albeit, low level, that is not part of the recorded music.
My experience with various clamps and mats is that the seeming reduction in sound dynamics is truly the elimination of resonant feedback. The longer I listen to a well bonded LP to the platter, the more obvious becomes the music reproduction.
The hard surfaces give a solid platform, and various material densities of the platter and mats cancel out resonant frequencies. I contrast the importance of the hard, stable, platform of the turntable platter with trying to walk while the ground is shaking. |
So, can we all agree that the Resomat will be system specific? With the Salvation in my set up it appears to work better with than without. In others the opposite will often be true. At c.$50 a shot, surely it can't harm to try? |
There are (many?) records which are concave on one side
(convex on the other) and need a clamp to be 'flattened'.
For my SP 10 I use the Orsonic 'disc stabilizer' which is
only 200 gr. It is not the weight but 'suction' working method.
For my Kuzma I use the provided weight of 330 gr.'obligtory'
because of the TT's suspension . |
Vic is definitely of the opinion that no matter how much you try to fix a warped lp to the platter via clamps/rings/vacuum hold down etc, the v. nature of the warp, being fixed and unforgiving will mean that the warp will 'fight' the flattening and push against the fixing somewhere in the grooves. At some point obv. the stylus will hit an undulation and leave you with the same problem of tracking, perhaps exacerbated by the fact the lp is now overly fixed due to being held artificially static. Vic's o'all conclusion is that less artificial fixing of the lp to the platter will prevent such non-flat 'hotspots' being an issue ie if you cannot have a totally flat lp, accept the fact and make do with less restriction. Who knows how much groove stress/distortion is introduced by over fixing a bendy lp to the platter, against it's 'will' (lol!)
Please note, I am only surmising what is poss. going on here, this tweak like all others must be reas. system dependent. |
I would like to offer another point of view on the Reso Mat. I and my friend tried out the Reso Mat on his highly modified slate plinthed Lenco, with a variety of arms including the Terminator. We felt that while the sound seemed to be cleaner, there was a loss of body / mid bass. Both of us felt that the compromise was just not for us. So, I suppose, as many other things in audio, this is system / TT dependent.
Then I have this question about over-damping with clamps / weights / vacuum on LPs. I always wonder how a LP can be over-damped, as it is supposed to be inert, and the cartridge is playing on the top side, in free air.
I can understand the clamping may causes stress on a warped LP. I can understand the interface between the LP and platter / mat may result in some vibrations reflect back to the stylus. There are certainly possibilities that they could affect the sound. However, I really dont understand how a LP can be over-damped.
Yes, if over-damp actually just meant a deadening of the sound, I can see that happening, but that is not really over-damp is it, at least not in the technical sense, right? |
I use a light clamping force, with rubber washers of correct thickness underneath and on top of the Reso-Mat as required to cup the LP onto to the vinyl acetate cones of Reso-Mat without excessive compression. |
That's a REALLY good question. I'm not sure if I've got the correct answer, and I wouldn't want to give you any BS.
All I can say is that there appears to be minimal wavering on piano notes or loud passages/crescendos where undoubtedly groove stylus drag is likely to be at it's greatest.
I have checked strobe speed during such passages and there appears to be no slowing, visually or aurally. However a Sutherland Timeline may provide another story. Maybe one day.
What appears to be happening is that the resomat is one with the platter and there is enough solid contact between resomat and lp to resist slipping from groove friction/inertia. Vic has craftily made the spiked cones of the resomat of the same material as goes into lps so thre may be a natural adhesion between the two. |
Spirit, looking at the Reso Mat, it appears that the LP rests on a few points elevated above the platter. Without anyway to clamp the LP down and prevent it from moving, do you notice any slippage of the LP as the needle creates drag during large groove modulations?
I understand from your many descriptions of the high torque motor that it propels the LP forward at constant and accurate speed. That is a big advantage. I'm wondering though if the friction from the stylus might be enough to slow down the LP during big piano notes etc while the massive direct rim drive keeps the platter moving forward. How does the Reso Mat/Trans Fi Salvation deal with this potential problem? |
Redglobe, I think you'll find first and foremost, it is the design of the motor that minimises transmission of rumble to the platter, draining it diametrically away via the feet and operating lever.
Then on top of this by raising the lp off the platter a few milimetres onto inert points, it minimises further vibrations reaching the stylus via the lp itself.
So maximum torque, speed stability, resistance to stylus-groove modulation is provided by the direct rim drive engineering; stable, neutral tracking across the WHOLE lp side is provided by the air bearing linear tracking arm; and potential downsides of transmission of rumble are minimised by deliberate motor design and interruption of continuous flow of energy by the resomat.
All that needs to top this off is something like the Vinyl Flat to tame overwarped lps which might not sit well with the resomat, moderately warped lps have been no problem so far.
My perception of pitch, I'm really not too sure how well developed it is. I have to say classical music esp. piano seems to be v. truthful. The tt seems to get the full percussive impact as the hammer strikes to create the leading edge of the note (direct result of v. high torque motor), and no wavering in decay as the note dies away (direct result of minimal time domain 'smear' caused by ultra accurate speed control). fade outs involving acoustic instruments are v. close to as waver free as digital.
One of the biggest improvements I wasn't even expecting to get is a massive improvement in vocals. Voices are much more solid and intelligible, more centre stage than ever. |
Absolutely my point Lewm, my Orbe was improved in some ways with clamping/periphery rings/mats, but in other ways, life, energy and dynamics were stifled.
Another example of Vic thinking "outside the box" and going down a route not followed by any other tt designers.
It amuses me that near state of the art sound can be had with such simple engineering approaches compared to the seriously OTT vacuum hold down/clamping/fixing of lps with pumps/suction/heavy rings offered by top end tt manufacturers like Continuum, Walker, Clearaudio etc.
An amazing result of eliminating fixings is quite the liveliest, most naturally exhuberant sound I've ever heard from my lps.
However I have a couple of devilishly warped lps to play soon, will report my thoughts then (thinking of investing in a Vinyl Flat). |
As I mentioned previously, I tend not to like clamps and rings. Like anything else, damping can be overdone at the expense of lifelike qualities. |
Regarding the Reso Mat, yes it does seem counter intuitive that something which allows freedom of the lp to not be flush flat when being played can only add to soundstaging and dynamics issues.
But maybe this needs to be looked at in reverse. Maybe use of clamp and outer ring does indeed maximise flattness, but if it introduces strain and overdamping maybe this negates this advantage. Whenever I used clamps/mats/rings on my Orbe, somewhat better soundstaging resulted, but with a pinching of dynamics and musical energy.
All I can say there is no hint of overdamping just a surplus of musical energy coming thru on the Salvation. |
Dear Redglobe, I ask this question in all sincerity, not to be facetious. How could we imagine that the Resomat can "minimize transmission of noise to the stylus"? I guess it could do so by failing to transmit bearing and motor noise. On the other hand, energy put into the LP by the cartridge bumping around in the groove would tend to stay "in" the LP and could end up affecting the cartridge. It might be a trade-off. Most of the time, we are forced to choose among such trade-offs, so in the end it depends on the listener's preference. That is, pick your poison.
I was watching a snippet from Clockwork Orange the other night, as part of a biography of Stanley Kubrick. I had forgotten that there is a Transcriptors turntable prominently shown in the movie, actually seems to have been a prop for Kubrick to reveal character. That platter did not catch on for some reason. Definitely not ideal for even slightly warped LPs. |
Lewm, I think you would very much "get" the Salvation if you heard it, since you're coming from a change to idler/dd away from belt drive (Lenco L75/SP10 owner if I'm not mistaken?).
All I can say is that no matter which high end belt drive I tried and liked (SME 20, 30, TW Acustic AC3, Brinkmann LaGrange, Clearaudio Innovation etc) the mid/upper bass colouration was present, reduced compared to my tricked out Michell Orbe, but nevertheless a constant.
On listening to the Salvation, this colouration GONE, with a consequent improvement in sound produced across the board.
I know that Vic has spent hour upon hour devising a way to drain rumble away from the platter, and if the wide open transparant soundstage is anything to go by, he has succeeded admirably.
Two caveats: one, I can't divorce the effects of the arm from the tt since it came as a package; and two, this extra cleanliness to the sound eliminating euphonic timing colourations may not appeal to the majority. Indeed I was wary I would grow to be unsure about the sound, but the combination of the best of digital and analogue attributes is really beguiling.
Redglobe, you have to really alter the VTA of the arm to eliminate use of Resomat, but on correct a-b, use of the mat is a winner by miles - much greater focus and smoothness to the sound. |
Spirit, I have been following Vic's site for a number of years and it is good to hear such a favorable review. It seems like a well crafted TT with a simple engineering design.
The Resomat seems to be a key component for minimizing the transmission of noise to the stylus. How much rumble does the stylus pick up without the Resomat? Do you know the runout of the bearing? It looks to be the same bearing that DIY HIFI Supply sells. Is it the same or is it coincidental?
What kind of music do you listen to? Can you detect when instruments are off pitch? |
Spirit, It is great to note your enthusiasm, and as Dave G knows, I share your admiration for the Terminator tonearm, but your technical explanations of why the Salvation is superior to other turntables, particularly belt driven ones, fall flat. I could cite in response a list of pseudo-technical reasons why, in principle, I don't care for the rim drive idea at all, but it would be unfair to do so, since I have never heard the Salvation or the TTW products. It's enough to say that we ought to be aware of the Salvation as an interesting alternative. I tend to respect the product despite my misgivings re rim drive, because the designer has already shown a lot of talent with respect to the Terminator.
Dave, I never realized that moisture is not a problem for the Terminator. This tempers my aversion to trying one. |
