Welcome to the rabbit hole |
I just got "The Complete Guide to High-End Audio" by Rober Harley and will read it.
I would appriciate if anyone can comment on:
"Any suggestions about my old Creative Gigawors S750 - the build in amp was class D, I think the speakers are still good to use with an nice extarnal one, but what exactly? :)" |
Naim has a different focus on sounds and image compared to highend brands like Pass Labs. It is another world. I don't say that you cannot enjoy it.
This is a matter of taste, but I have listend often to Naim equipment with other speakers as well.
The image is still a lot different, less intimate en less precise. |
"The weakest link in a Naim System is typically the speakers. You CAN get 3D sound from a Naim System, providing you don't attach Naim Speakers."
Not me. And it wasn't for lack of effort either. |
Bo1972 is partially "pulling his punch" here. The weakest link in a Naim System is typically the speakers. You CAN get 3D sound from a Naim System, providing you don't attach Naim Speakers. Totems; Harbeths; and some Dynaudio models match extremely well to Naim. In contrast, if you attach Naim's own NSat speakers to something like a Naim Nait 5si, you will indeed get 2D sound.
Here's a more striking example: Magnepan makes some great speakers. The Ayre AX-7e is a great integrated amp. For a chuckle, I asked my dealer to attach an AX-7e to a pair of Maggie 1.7s. In a word, YECH!!! The resulting sound was sterile, detached, fatiguing, and uninvolving.
The point here is that you are trying to build "a system" that reproduces recorded music based on your personal preferences. A good Audio shopkeeper will take the time to direct you to gear that matches your sound & musical preferences given your budget. Selecting speakers is a big part of building such a system, but not the only part. In the end, the parts will need to work together, and within your room parameters, in order to yield a quality sound.
Returning to Bo1972's comments, if you happen to LIKE the Naim sonic signature (many people do) and can afford the gear, don't be afraid to purchase Naim. Just be sure to match speakers appropriately. (FWIW I don't own Naim, but have friends who enjoy their Naim systems) |
Audiokinesis wrote a nice but true story about audio. A live experience is in my perception a sound what is fully 3 dimensional and playing physical in front of you. And that it can go deep as it does during a live concert.
Music Always need to be the essential part. There is audio because there was and is music. The emotion is in the music.
People talk about brands, but at the end a whole system only could give a stunning and convincing sound togheter.
It is easy to create an average or poor sound even with a top brand speaker. In more occasions it is not that convincing.
I have proven that speakers who can give a deep and wide stage are more entertaining for a longer period of time than a 2 dimensional speaker.
A 2 dimensional sound is not entertaining you for a long period. Many people I met and who were not happy with their sound. In many situations they had a 2 dimensional image.
I had a client in 2009 and he had a Naim system. This is an almost 2 dimensional sound. First I talked about what a 3 dimensional sound is and what the difference is between a 2 dimensional sound. After he heard it he said: I never have experienced this. I like it a lot and I prefer it over my Naim System. When I would have heard this before that I bought the Naim system. I would not have bought it.
Still many people are not familiar enough what the difference is between a 2 dimensional image and 3 dimensional image.
Shows need to tell people more about the differences. I think they never will do. Because it will have a big influence on some brands. That is why audio will never be that open and honest to customers. |
JBL Synthesis, Revel, ATC, Tannoy, B&W, and TAD/Pioneer. |
Welcome to a wonderful hobby! Music can transform you, it can take you to a place where your soul speaks to you, and music well-rendered does this best. While live music is the "reference" that we aim for, it's often easier to listen deeply to recorded music, because your listening room is usually more conducive to relaxing and letting it happen than most live venues.
I've been involved in several different pursuits through the years, and it is my observations that audiophiles in general are exceptionally good people (despite the tube vs solid state, analog vs digital, etc. wars we wage). I think this is because they listen to a lot of music, and all that music has had its effect on them.
Imo a good loudspeaker must do two things: First, it must do something so well that you can close your eyes and suspend disbelief and be transported. That "something" can be timbre, imaging, dynamics, coherence, spaciousness, inner detail, whatever. Okay, that's the easy part.
The hard part is, the speaker must not then turn around and do something so poorly that it collapses the aforementioned illusion. Often a speaker is initially impressive, but becomes "fatiguing" to listen to after a while.
Specs can be of some use in helping you work up a shortlist, but specs are incomplete data at best, and "overly optimistic" at worst.
If you have access to a brick-and-mortar store, go there with your favorite CD's. Such stores are rare these days, and anyone still doing that is carrying brands that they really believe in.
To evaluate whether a speaker will be fatigue-free over the long haul, here are a couple of suggestions, once you've found a speaker or two that sounds good when you listen normally: Turn the volume level down very low, and see if it's still enjoyable. At very low levels, midrange colorations tend to stand out more, because they are not "balanced" so well by the bass and high treble, both of which are harder to hear at very low levels.
Next, turn the volume level up louder than normal, and walk outside the room. Listen through the open doorway, with no line-of-sight to the speakers. How close does it come to sounding like there's a live band in the room? A speaker that sounds good from outside the room is generally more likely to be long-term enjoyable than one that doesn't.
If you don't have a store within reasonable driving distance, consider attending an audio show. Also, see if there's an audio club in your area.
I know you wanted a list of brand names, but I'm not a good source of information on mainstream brands. I have too many biases, and many of the brands I like are pretty far off the beaten path. Okay, here's three that are fairly mainstream, and imo worth their asking price: Magnepan, Anthony Gallo, and Harbeth.
The path of the audiophile is a path of self-discovery, and this is the best time ever to be an audiophile, in part because this site makes it feasible to buy and sell used gear. It is very unlikely that your first speaker choice will be your last, so you'll probably make use of this site to make course-corrections as you learn more about what matters most to you, and what compromises you can live with to get it. (To paraphrase a line from the Princess Bride, speaker design is tradeoffs, highness. Anyone who says differently is in marketing.)
Don't be surprised if, during a late-night listening session, you hear that little inner voice pulling you to do something that uplifts and challenges you. Music makes it easier for that little voice to get through, and music well-rendered all the moreso.
Duke
dealer/manufacturer |
Invest in this book and you won't regret it: (http://www.amazon.com/The-Complete-Guide-High-End-Audio/dp/0978649311) |
It depends Always about the price. There are exeptional good speakers in every single price range compared to their competitors.
I sold Bose in the past. They are one of the best in advertising. But....my colleagues and I found it the worst brand in queality we sold compare to the other speakers we sold. You don't need the best quality to sell a lot.
The biggest problem in audio is that many audio lovers are not aware of the different properties of all the parts in their set.
When I did visit many sets in a period of 2 years. ( sets from 8000 till 180.000 Dollar) I was usrprised that the endresult of most of these sets was not that good.
Even the epensive highend sets were not that convincing. These days many of them buy things from the internet.
When they send me an email with all the parts of their set I knew already that it could not work.
The properties togheter make the sound and the image. And the acoustics. When it does not fit perfectly you need to adapt it. This is what you don't want.
Audio is a lot more difficult to get a stunning endresult. But only a stunning endresult gives you a sound you want to listen every single day! This is how Audio should be. |
Thanks for the advises fellas. I would like to have a system capable of high quality sound both in movies and music. As there are so many receivers, proccessors which coast thousands of dollars I think they should be good enough for both.
As a source - at the moment I use mostly DAC (PC HD audio using optic connection) but don't know if that is sufficient enough to play it on a high-end system. When a day comes to buy a new system I would probably use it also - most of the media I use is on my PC :) Rarely there would be any external bluray or other..
Any suggestions about my old Creative Gigawors S750 - the build in amp was class D, I think the speakers are still good to use with an nice extarnal one, but what exactly? :) |
To echo Mrc and Zd, yeah we were having fun. Don't consider Bose ever as a speaker worthy of having. Its overpriced, plastic junk. But I stand by my assertion that it truly is the Top Brand!
In terms of sales and sadly, public perception, 9 out of 10 people do not know nor care about quality audio, yet they are all aware of Bose. This is due to their massive and brilliant marketing campaigns. So its the Top Brand.
Your question is kind of difficult to answer. We would really need to have some idea of budget and more importantly, application - multi-channel HT or 2 channel Music? IMO, most speakers can do movies in HT applications but not all can do music. Because of the overwhelming popularity of HT systems, especially being bought by non-audiophiles, the top brands are different than those being used by 2 channel folks. If I were to give a list, the brands would be grouped under these two applications.
Just keep reading, learning and most important - when your ready to pull the trigger, go out and listen for yourself. Audition, audition, audition! Good luck brother. |
you will get 5000 answers to that....if you live in an area with audio shops, preferably not big box stores, spend some time in them just listening to the kind of music you like. much of what is written here is esoteric cra* posted by seekers who are always looking for some magic alchemy. if it is gonna be a hobby that is one thing but if you just want a system you like then check out different styles and buy the one you prefer and spend your time listening to the music. otherwise welcome to the rabbit hole of 'audiophiles' |
Mrc's right. We were just having a bit of fun. (at least I was). Your first post looks like a classic question designed just to get people arguing. After reading your 2nd post, that's obviously not the case. I can't tell you what the best is, buy my personal favorite is Vandersteen. There's plenty of other brands that are great as well. You just need to do some listening to find out what you like best. |
reesoulbg, don't listen to some of these guys. They're just joking with you regarding Bose. Bose is NOT a quality speaker. A word of advice: go to a reputable store (where do you live) and bring music you're familiar with and audition several different speaker brands. As someone stated above, you have to take into consideration your budget and what sources you decide to use (turntable, CD player, DAC/high resolution from a computer etc.) and the kind of components you'll listen to with them (amp? preamp? integrated amp)such as solid state versus tubes.
The brands you brought up are decent. Someone else here brought up a few that are excellent and there are great sounding speakers made by DeVore, ProAc, Harbeth, Tannoy, Sonus Faber etc. You just have to know what your budget is and what kind of music you like to listen to, because some speakers favor acoustic music to rock and roll. |
About the budget - I certainly does not have the means right now to buy a top brand system, but eventually in the future I would like to know which ones are the best so to look at.
"Curious, why you would ask such a question." - I want to get familliar with high-end audio systems. I have basic view of some good brands but as I read some threads here it seems there are so many that claims are good. Also I would like to expand my knowledge what should you look at in a good system besides main specs - read that crossovers are quite important for delivering a better performance.
And about BOSE - on what is the quality based against other top brands? What about Paradigm, Klipsch, (Velodyne - if can be considered - DD1812). Are the specs of those real as they say, or are overstated, especially for the subs - going below 20HZ.
Audiolabyrinth - I will check those, except JBL - I am familiar with it - just I am amazed there are 200k home systems - any thoughts about them? (jblsynthesis.com)
Also by my oppinion speakers alone are not the everything that should be considered - you need also a good amp, good source. In this connection - what do you actually need - amp, proccessor, preamp, receiver? There are so many stuff to consider...it's hard to get your head around it :)
For the moment I would like to repair the set I have - Creative Gigawors S750 - the build in amp in the sub got broken and it seems I won't be able to find a good shop to repair it, could there be used an extarnal better amp to connect the speakers to? Any advise would be much appriciated.
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hahahahahahahaha...yessss Bose..... |
JBL, Rockport,Kef,Tannoy,Reveal,Raidho,Magico, and a few I might have left out. |
Good sounding - timeless - Designs:
Magneplanar
Reference 3A
Verity Audio |
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I agree with Zd. In terms of sales, Bose is probably the top brand. It has instant name recognition with the buying public and vast majority of non-audiophiles believe them to be the best available. No doubt - they are the top speaker brand.
WRT to you second question; are they worth the money? No!
The speaker that is worth the money is whatever one sounds best to you, driven by your amp and in your room. If you derive satisfaction from it, then its worth the money.
Curious, why you would ask such a question. |
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More than anything, the main question is, ...what is your budget?
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Most speakers offered in high end shops have merits; you could start by perusing the audiophile brick and mortar sites to gather some brands to consider.
You may wish to spend the money to go to an audio show; while not a perfect auditioning environment, it will expose you to many fine speakers.
Note there are many designs which are esoteric, fine for specific music genres but limited in performance parameters, i.e. single driver high efficiency speakers. Blindly buying a particular technology might bring disappointment, so some education is in order. You would do well to get an informal familiarity with the different technologies employed as well, such as panel, horn, hybrid etc. There are fantastic examples in speakers in all these categories, as well as both ported and sealed subwoofers.
Everyone has their favorite horse in the race, so be prepared to hear a lot of recommendations from fervent owners, and a few proprietors, perhaps. |
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