Tonearm resonance

What's tonearm noise? Are the bearings loose? 

Not noise, resonance. Vibration through the tonarm from the stylus raising the noise floor.

I would buy a TT with the option of mounting your own arm, preferably the option to add a second arm.

A good used one gives you buying options and saves money or gets you more for your budget.

Original arm could be S arm with changeable head-shell for alternate head-shell/cartridges (one might be MM/MC/Mono), or an arm that has optional arm wands, like VPI Unipivot ..... Technics bpa-500 base alternate arms.

Any members know of other arms with changeable arm wands _______?

I don’t see a compliance mismatch so unless something is wrong with the arm bearings or with the cartridge, there shouldn’t be an issue. How do you know there’s resonance? If you hold the arm pillar with one hand, and the headshell with the other, do you detect play or is there no movement?

If you are experiencing "resonance", consider a better turntable before upgrading cartridge.

You could try wrapping the arm with 10 turns of PTFE tape halfway up and at the bearing end as an experiment. You could also try increasing the mass of the arm by adding another nut to the bolts or using brass instead of aluminum etc.

No risk except shipping cost to try Funk's Houdini

"Funk says “Decouple”, that's why Houdini was developed! This patented little device blocks those damaging arm vibrations and Immediately your sound improves…a lot! It’s as simple as that."

"Just try it and hear, especially on your modest deck. (You’ll get your money back if you disagree…only, you won’t!)"

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I recall a thread about a thin layer of soft damping material between the head-shell and cartridge that solves/prevents vibration/resonance, some highly recommend it.

I seem to remember it costs a lot less than the funk one you mentioned.

anyone know what is is _______ ?

The OP is asking specifically about that and mentions it by name!

Funk Firm

There’s another by Origin Live called the Enabler IIRC.

anyone know what is is?

noromance, good solution

Origin Cartridge Enabler

they mention other solutions

"

Cartridge isolation works

The idea of decoupling the cartridge from the tonearm is not entirely new. The Cartridge Man isolator does this successfully for many arms.

Another alternative promoted by Dynavector importer Pear Audio suggested 3 plastic washers placed between a cartridge body and headshell - this also worked effectively."

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Cartridge Man

the text/his test results are worth reading if considering this

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back to Origin:

The key advantages of the Cartridge floater are:

It sounds brilliant

It’s easy to fit

Low cost at £19 (performance improvement can be valued at over 10 times this figure)

It works with all cartridges (from £35 budget up to £8000 high end cartridges)Provides the ability to slightly adjust azimuth on tonearms which have no such adjustment."

The table came with a full molded carbon fiber tonarm and it's definitely better than the aluminum tube numbers I've had (thorens td325 comes to mind) which sounded like an aluminum tube in the background. This arm is better but it's still transferring background noise through it. I'm reasonably sure that's the culprit. I don't have any illusions of backgrounds as quiet as a digital player at my price point but I would like to get close. Thanks for the input.

It's getting a lot of raves on other forums. I might have to give it a try. If I do I will be sure to report my findings.

I'm sorry, but I still don't know what you mean by tonearm noise.  Tonearm bearings can be noisy, but I would think only on a very cheap tonearm.  Anti-skate devices can introduce a source of vibration by several different mechanisms.  But otherwise, what you interpret as tonearm noise may be failure to properly dissipate energy put into the tonearm by the cartridge, particularly low compliance LOMC cartridges that can't dissipate their own energy efficiently due to lack of compliance. In that case, I would not take steps to isolate the cartridge from the headshell; you might make matters worse.  Wish I could hear what you are finding objectionable.  The Cartridge Man thingy and the Cartridge Enabler are controversial to say the least.  For me, a no-no. I want the cartridge to be as tightly coupled to the headshell as possible and for the headshell to be efficient at dissipating energy.

put same cartridge in 2 different arms and listen to highly modulated grooves… easy to hear difference… arms are not just about better bearing / geometry but also resonance dissipation, damping and conversion…. 

i am not in the enabler camp… trading slop for damping… but i can see why some people might find it attractive….

Get yourself a Townshend Audio Rock turntable. 😁

Before one goes down the route of adopting additional devices to insert between Headshell and Cart’, suggested when in use to be a means of Cartridge Isolation.

It will be best for the individual to decide how closely they want to follow the philosophy of Rigid Coupling between all Parts used to create the Vinyl Front End and how much slop they want to add as means of moving away from a Rigid Coupling.

My own experience has been the closer to I have been able to attain to the method of Rigid Coupling, the more impressed I have become with the Source being used to replay vinyl.

Adding a wonder part, can be great at fixing one very small engineering concern, and introduce a whole lot more engineering concerns, that were not present prior to the adopting the use of the part.

@yogiboy are you interested in Exchangeable Wands on TA’s produced presently or Vintage designs as well, where finding a spare wand may incur a period of time watching the market to get the spare item?

There are also wands that are exchangeable that also have exchangeable Headshells as well.

https://www.reed.lt/product/reed-5t-tonearm/

are these issues always present on your support system? It is possible a combo of solidity and anti-vibration is needed.

my final solution was adding isolation blocks between my heavy turntable and very stable equipment rack

I was dealing with springy wood floor over a crawl space, not cartridge/arm issues.

ps, I wrapped those isolation blocks with black tape, don't even see them now.

@johnnybwood Are you sure it’s not just general feedback from poor turntable support, playing with a lid attached, or speakers too close etc. Honestly, the aluminum vs carbon fibre hypothesis is not something I’d give much credence to. I can hear CF coloration a mile away!

Dear @johnnybwood  : Tonearm resonance?. Against what are you comparing that cartridge/tonearm/TT? what is your challenge TT/TONEARM/Cartridge?

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

I would just like to experience a blacker background and I really think tonearm noise is feeding back through the cartridge. That's how it sounds to me. I could be way off base but I thought that might be a good place to start. I certainly appreciate any and all thoughts and theories on the subject. I might have to try it just to find out. Of course it is not as simple as installing just the Houdini. VTA has to be addressed as well as other critical alignments so the the prospect is a bit daunting. I came set up so who knows how well that was done. Maybe it's time to get serious about proper setup full stop! Their recommended anti skating was not right and it was obvious so other aspects probably need tracking also. After all, how much time are they taking at the facility for a 1500.00 tt. Maybe a trial run on  my old Rega p1 to start with and see how it goes with that.

Funk has a download on their website named “Isolation Bubble”, which I’ve read. Funk claims that the sound waves from your speakers will cause your tonearm to vibrate. The Houdini isolates the vibrating tonearm from the cart/stylus. Meanwhile the Acromamat mat on the platter isolates the style from vibrations created by the motor, plinth, etc. As result, the cartridge is in an isolation bubble, allowing the stylus to vibrate while tracking the groove and nothing else. Is this accurate? I Have no idea.

Tried removing the lid completely instead of just leaving it up during play and background improves somewhat but doesn't solve the the whole problem. Motor is separate from the the plynth. Good quality stand on carpet over concrete so that shouldn't pose an issue. Interested in the Funk article jwr159 spoke of and will take a minute to check that out. 

@johnnybwood I was thinking that this sounds like something is not gelling. So I checked out the Stereophile review (I’m not a reviewer fanboy) just to get an idea of their opinion. Long story short, the reviewer hated the Ortofon 2M Bronze on this table and requested a different cartridge. You might start there. Good luck.

Furshur not a lot of fans of the bronze but still a step up from what I had. I believe also an Ortophon OM2. Was considering a Hana EL. Just bought a pair of Rel s510 subs and one of my amps lost a channel right after so I’m a bit spent out for the moment. As soon as I get my wind back from that I will be diving into turntable issues whole hog! Will need a laundry list of alignment tools for that venture. Cheers 

Okay.  Do yourself a favor and lose that table. If you've the means to buy those subs, you can step it up from that MMF. 

HAD money for subs! I love vinyl but it’s not the only source I listen to. Certainly tweaking what I have is a worth while effort and a means to leapfrog to something better down the road. Any thing I do now could be applied there including cartridge, isolation (like the Funk) and alignment tools.Yes, a VPI or Linn is a worthwhile upgrade but for now I have to work with what I’ve got. All part of the joy!  
 I will be playing with isolation techniques in the meantime and reporting back to this thread with any noteworthy findings in the future.

Cheers

where is @mijostyn when you need him?

@sokogear  Right here scratching my head.

@johnnybwood The only thing you will here with a tonearm cartridge mismatch is feedback (if the arm is too light) and only under some circumstances. What you are looking for is a quieter tracking cartridge and the Hana is not it. Other sources of noise include your phono stage which should be obvious when you turn the volume up. You NEVER put anything between cartridge and the tonearm except maybe a solid shim. The cartridge has to be rigidly oriented to the turntable.  If the resonance frequency is too high you add weight in the form of heavier screws or longer screws with washers. Soundsmith makes a nice set of graded cartridge screws. 

If you are looking for a quieter cartridge you need a more advanced stylus profile, but these are usually in more expensive cartridges. Ortofon's Replicant 100 stylus is a very quiet tracker if set up carefully. Grado cartridges have been said to be quiet. The Soundsmith OLC in the Voice is almost as quiet as the Replicant 100. The Gyger S is as quiet as the Soundsmith OLC. The Grado 1042 is a very reasonably priced cartridge with the Gyger S. Clearaudio uses the Gyger in the Charisma and some of it's moving coils. Van den Hul probably uses the Gyger in some of it's cartridges as Van den Hul designed it. 

Lastly, if your records have been played with a bad stylus or not kept clean and static free the result will be increased background noise. You may want to take some of your records to a store with a decent turntable set up and see how they sound.