Good lad. I have owned something like 20 to 25 BMW bikes, from a '74 R90S through an '02 K1200LT. Four spine surgeries and a hip replacement put riding off limits in these, my golden years.
Just re-read your initial commentary and see that you're not burdened by having a small listening room. So, our discussion is a tad less critical in your case. My primary listening room is 24' X 26' and I am able to place my Apogee Slant 6s well into the room and away from all walls. Likewise my listening position is very nearly in the center of the room. There is no noticeable reflective sound and it's easy to experience much of the feeling of being in the recording environment. Still, as with my smaller listening room, I prefer the main speakers to be close to "on axis" with the listening position. |
Yes, Beemerrider. It makes sense and sounds pretty good. Btw, I just parted with my 8th BMW. |
Broadstone, it appears to me that you have your speakers just about where they need to be given the room anomalies you describe, i. e. - you are minimizing surface reflections and preserving the frequency response designed into them vis a vis your listening position. In smaller rooms like ours it isn't a bad thing to have speakers that beam so that reflections can be minimized. |
Beemerrider, Thank you. My situation with this partial wall to my right seems (I think) to dictate consideration in toeing requirements and I'm assuming that some toe in is necessary to reduce the influence of that surface. I found also that moving my seating position 2 feet closer to the speakers and further in front of that wall also helps. In either position, I've had the speakers pointed directly at me. |
I subscribe most nearly with Timlub's recommendation. Keep in mind that the vast majority of speakers are designed to produce a flat frequency response when measured on axis. This means that the more the speaker is turned off axis the less flat the frequency response will be. In most cases there will appear a dip in response at the crossover point between the drivers. I get my best results with my speakers very nearly pointing right at me but with slight toe-out as this provides a little more sense of spaciousness. If pressed to give an absolute recommendation I would suggest setting them up so you are on the verge of seeing the the inward sides of the cabinets. This is my experience in my smallish room with stand-mounted Usher BE-718s. |
Thanks, Tim. That's almost exactly the toe-in I used for the transducers and what you say makes sense. I do have a difficult room with an additional issue re a partial wall near, behind and to the right of my listening position. The effect that this has is dramatic when listening to out of phase test tones; as I move from the front wall back toward my spot, the sound migrates to the right. I assumed that the wall was at least a contributor to this phenomenon and more exaggerated toeing did help. |
I've seen a few inaccuracies posted. If a speaker has a perfectly flat response and reasonable time & phase alignment a full tow in works well, especially in room with a lot of problems, the full tow in helps keep the frequencies from rebounding off sidewalls by aiming directly at your ears... often you can look at graphs of a speaker and see frequency peaks, in this case, almost always, you will find a soother frequency response off axis and a slight tow or straight frontal view helps a bunch.. So unfortunately, there is not absolute. Not knowing your speakers, I always suggest a full tow in, pointing at your ears... left speaker pointed at left ear, right at right ear, not crossing. If there are any peaks or maybe your soundstage is not wide enough, from there, start turning them outward, just a few degrees at a time. I would put something on the sofa back behind your head and measure outward marking the points at which your speakers should point... you will very quickly zone in on your preference.
I hope this helps, Tim |
Ok and thanks. I ordered the recommended items and have temporarily settled on 15 ft speaker separation with very slight toe-in. It sounds good and I imagine that there will be an acclimation curve having left the world of electrostats. The Ethos and MMC Serie are both great speakers just different. Besides, in many ways I think the monitors are going to be easier to deal with in several ways including having more latitude in amplification choices. BTW, I temporarily connected the Serie's directly the 80W Peachtree Nova which I normally use as a preamp to the Peachtree 220 and could could tell very little difference; trying the same with the ML Odysseys or Ethos' produced a not so acceptable result. |
In a perfect world, along the lines of an anechoic chamber, one would discover that the best toe in is no toe in. Toe in preferences are the result of all the room anomalies. |
If you're not using the speaker set up track on the XLO Test CD or something similar you're not even close. All other methods at the very best find local maximums, as opposed to, you know, the real maximum. Think of it like looking for a needle in a haystack. |
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"Get Better Sound" by Jim Smith would be the book to get in order to go about things best systematically if not sure. its a small investment to make to help get the best sound possible faster. |
it should be an easy and easily reversible tweak to try it different ways and see what sounds best. There is no golden rule that always works. Everyone's rooms and personal preferences regarding what sounds best are different. What you hear matters. What people say should works best really doesn't. |
For a very long time I've used the Martin Logan curved panels which are quite dependent on positioning so have possibly become a little over attentive to those requirements. I've had 5 pairs of these over the years and never had any of them in the forward facing mode. On the other hand, when using conventional speakers I don't think I used any but a slight toe-in. With these Serie Reference monitors, that's where I started, with zero toeing.
I'm trying not to become fixated on the equilateral triangle positioning of speakers relative to the listener but there are enough discussions supporting that setup theory that I think it's worth considering as, at least, a starting point. Right now the speakers are positioned 12 feet apart with my listening spot 16 feet from them in a room about 18 feet wide and 25 feet long. I can make some minor adjustments to the furnishings to put the speakers 14 feet apart with the listening position 15 feet from them. With the speakers this far apart I'm thinking that some toe in would be called for and I'll begin experimenting. I'm still impressed with these 20 year old speakers and am sure they'll be in my home permanently. |
Sometimes it's helpful if you can have someone toe in the speakers as you are listening to them. It will become apparent where a good spot is as for a starter as they are moved around. I haven't tried the radical toe in as discussed above, but have usually settled for toe in that aims at my shoulders and crosses behind me about 4 feet or so. |
I say overdo it! Yes indeed. Have the drivers cross 1-3 feet in front of your head meaning your speakers will have extreme toe in when nearfield listening. Try this as many use it and report stellar results. This works best with two way speakers!
I love it and have tried most every method touted on the net. This is the best in my room with my gear. |
I would start all over with placement. I only use the Sumiko Master Set method. You set up the speakers to play the room. Once they are properly placed you can set the toe in for the proper imaging. That's trial and error. Good luck. |
My experience with toe in, it can help, but do not overdone it, just a little bit, try not too triangle shape, if the speakers is fatigue less, you don't need toe in will wonderful sound, having said that if the speakers sound harsh or too bright, toe in or whatever room treatments won't work effectively, fatigue will come eventually, recently I got to compare a pairs of Wharfedale Denton & Wharfedale Jade 3, end up I love the Denton so much more, relaxing, detailed, musical fatigue less sound that let you enjoy more |
Yes extreme toe in can work wonderfully. I have my speakers set up as Chayro states. I listen nearfield also. Astounding results with a two way speaker! |
I would start with them facing straight ahead and listen for a week or so until you get used to them. Then, if you want to fool around, toe them in just a little and experiment from there. There is one school of thought, Spendor in particular, that recommends extreme toe in with the high frequency axis actually crossing in front of your head. I don't recall ever trying it, but I hate the way it looks! Don't get hung up on this. Really. |
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