Update on my A-S3000 that went into protection mode: After going through everything the manual suggested the next step was to call customer service per the manual recommendation. I was completely blown away with Yamaha's customer service!!! After discussing what happened, they told me they were sending me a new box and shipping label. My wife threw out my box while I was away on a business trip several months before I noticed it was missing. The repair shop performed a factory reset and tested the unit for 10 days! They were unable to find anything wrong with it after testing all functions. They were great as well, emailing me every couple of days to ask questions and apprise me of their testing. The unit came back to me without a single scratch or mark on it! It has been working flawlessly during the past week. All it needed was a factory reset. It would have been nice to have the instructions on how to perform that in the manual.
The only thing I can think of that might have caused the problem was that I had taken the amp to a high end store a week before the problem occurred. I took it there to compare hearing it with a Prima Luna preamp versus Prima Luna pre/power amp and Audio Research tube power amp. During one of the connection changes the sales person forgot to turn the system off and there was a loud pop. My amp shut off but he reset the power switch and it turned back on and continued to perform.
The Yamaha/Prima Luna preamp combo sounded amazing! Sonically it was close between the PL pre/power but I'd give the nod to the Prima Luna combo, mainly due to triode mode. However the Yamaha had greater power. The Yamaha/PL pre sounded much better than the PL pre/Audio Research tube power amp, it wasn't even close. I forget the model ARC but he said the price of it was 12k. I didn't purchase anything that day. I bought a reconditioned DYNA PAS-3X tube preamp a couple of weeks prior to going to the high end store. After returning home and having the system on for a couple of hours the amp turned off during two separate listening sessions. I reset the power switch and it continued to perform until turning it off several hours later both times. The next time I used the system, the amp turned on and immediately turned off and was in protection mode.
The PAS-3X/Yamaha combo sounds awesome! It is quiet but not as quiet as the Prima Luna. The PAS-3X is a nice interim component as well as extremely affordable. It has two phono inputs which is perfect for my stereo and mono tables. I'm running vintage Great Britain Mullard tubes in the phono stage, German Telefunken in the line stage and a vintage Holland Amperex Bugle Boy for the rectifier tube.
I can't say enough positive things about my experience with Yamaha's customer service, United Radio's service and UPS shipping!
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OMG- this thing was $7k!?!?!?!!! For that you could buy a Raven and a Decware and be set for life! Beautiful to look at too! Instead of this monster of an ugly box - that doesn't even work! And yet people bought them! Who says advertising doesn't pay?
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My A-S3000 started shutting down a couple of weeks ago. It went into protection mode a week ago and has remained there. I called Yamaha and they are sending me a box so I can ship it to a repair center in NY. Hopefully it will function properly again. I'd just started using a pre amp with the unit, not sure what caused the problem. |
I owned an A S2100 and had the same issue occur twice within a week so I sold it.. I now have an R N803 and have had zero problems.
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Dear members, the application of microcontrollers in stereo amplifiers has introduced a lot of problems. The microcontrollers sense and register all kind of paramters such as DC-offset at the speaker output, output current, heatsink temperature ultra high frequency input/output etc.
This technique was first introduced in surround sound receivers. Some even have several types of protection mode. Depending on the maximum current drawn from the power transistors, the period and slew rate of the maximum current decides whether the consumer can return to the normal mode by recycling power or that the unit shuts down forever. That is, until a service technician bypasses this mode by means of a secret (published in the service manual though) key-combination while powering on the unit.
The point is that most of the error-messages are of no use to the consumer because most of the times it is a fault caused by the amplifier itself! You would have to drive your speakers with lots of power for a long time until the protection mode kicks in. If it kicks in at moderate levels, your amplifier is at fault!
Often the DC-offset is exceeding a certain threshold and this is often due to the application of el cheapo Chinese made transistors at the input stage of each channel's power amp. A consumer can not solve this problem!
A-S3000 was delivered to my workshop today with the amp going into protection mode regularly. I already checked the service manual and the Japanese are crazy. They have more than 10 morse code like sequences of the flashing power LED in protection mode.
To run the diagnostic mode and to browse through the items one has to set rotary switches in certain positions....
One important thing to mention: In the service mode one can override the protection mode. This can cause additional damage, especially if the trouble cause is a high current running through the power amps. If this high current runs for a long period (it even runs when no speakers are connected) the power transistors wil be destroyed!!
Since this amp also seems to have bias-issues (heatsinks get too hot to touch), it may very well be that the bias is set so high that the amp will shut down immediately after it is switched on!!!
Bias circuits should be designed to be fail-safe. That means that if the bias trimmer's contacts get poor the bias should go to zero. Unfortunately some designers do not follow this scheme thus causing the bias to go to maximum current. This may destroy the power transistors.
The Japanese have the bad habbit to use bias trimmers that adjust very coarsly!! One just have to move the scredriver a little bit and the current goes through the roof!!
However, I do not believe that the adjustment is changed by vibrations during transport. I think it is just a matter of quality control. Also, bias adjustment takes time. The heatsinks have to warm up until one can set the right current and this may have to be repeated because if the heatsink's temperature drops, the bias current drops as well when we are talking about bipolar power transistors (it is different for power MOSFETs).
I will keep you informed about my reapir experience with the A-S3000 but I am aware the Yamaha uses plenty of SMD-componets. SMD-components, especially the complicated chips increase the failure rate of electronic equipment! |
^ I think it's the result of shipping. The bias is adjusted by simple trim pots on the top of each amp channel, near the heatsinks. Yamaha should be using some sort of tamper putty on them, unfortunately they don't and I wouldn't be surprised if repeated transport vibrations is what throws them off.
These amps are great but the packaging is absolutely ridiculous for an item that weighs over 50 lbs. Something that heavy and expensive should be shipped in a wooden crate. |
Hi guys,
long time between visits, so an update.
The first amp went back as warranty claim and I received a second amp which ran very hot so back to the dealer.
He arranged for the first amp to be checked by Yamaha Australia and it was discovered the biasing was out. So the second amp was checked locally by technicians and yep biasing was out. Biasing redone and now the amp runs cool to warm . And sounds great.
annoying that you have to mess around abit after spending this sort of money, happy because it’s running sweet now |
sounds like a good dealer. Good luck, I was worried when mine had issues as I didn't want to go a different direction. My new one is flawless and emits beautiful sound. |
Hi guys,
dealer came over this afternoon ,agreed that amp is too hot and is going to get another one in asap.
Fingers crossed
cheers dave |
@helomech @arch2
thanks guys, my dynaudio are I think 86db and I think a 4 ohm. But heat seems about the same , if the amp got warm under load unstanderable, but twice now I’ve let it sit and not play any music. And still gets very hot.
Regards dave |
Dave, The top plate of my AS300 will be warm but never really beyond that. All the speakers I have used with it have been fairly easy loads in the 6 to 8 ohm range and 88 to 91 db efficient. Don
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Dave,
That’s what occurred with the first example (A-S1100) I had in my system, however, it sounded and functioned just fine. I only returned it to try another amp. Ultimately, the Yamaha sound beckoned and I bought another. This one runs warm above the capacitor bank, but only after a good hour or more.
Maybe the 3000 is biased into class A some, even though it’s not advertised as such. That wouldn’t surprise me either and might account for the heat.
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@helomech thank you for your response, my speakers are dynaudio confidence 5, listen so far has been done with volume at 9 to 10 o'clock. .
with music it got dry hot, yesterday I just turned it on . No music same result very hot .
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Dave,
Unless you're using very demanding speakers, I wouldn't be surprised if your amp's bias has drifted, possibly due to shipping. The first A-S1100 I had in my possession ran very hot, my current one barely gets warm after a couple hours. My room remains around 65°F this time of year.
When I asked the local Yamaha tech about the difference, he said all Yamahas should run warm, not hot. However, I can't say whether he has experience with the 3000, that may be a different beast. |
@arch2 @dhpeck
and any other as3000 - how hot does your amp get? I've just bought a brand new one on Friday , sounds great but after 4 hrs the top plate is that hot I can't rest my hand. It not instant pull hand away but the heat is such I can't leave my hand there.
Being a a reasobable size powered amp, I would expect it to get warm and indeed speaking on line to a couple of other owners here in Australia, they say theirs gets warm, mine is way beyond warm.
Thanks dave |
I have dealt with HiFi Heaven before and bought a Yamaha CD S2100 from them, which I'm currently not using because I have a Audio Research CD player. They are great to deal with and I'm glad your unit is now working properly. |
Good news, I have dealt with HiFi Heaven.... good guys
Enjoy |
Thank You- dhpeck. Happy Listening!
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@jafant I'm in Green Bay, WI working with HiFi Heaven. They are outstanding to deal with. There was no hesitation from them to take care of me on this defective unit by getting another new unit to me. I have been upgrading over time via their trade up program. Being in Green Bay WI they do most of their business online. HiFiheaven.net
So far so good with this new unit! |
Thanks! for the update- dhpeck whom is your dealer/retailer? Happy Listening!
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Good news dhpek. Enjoy! BTW silver or black?
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Good news, even if I am not surprised. Enjoy the music.
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Ok boys and girls, new A-S3000 unit came in and it's been playing all night without glitches. Thank God as I didn't want to go to any other integrated. I really enjoy what I hear as smooth, liquid, but detailed without being fatiguing. |
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@gkr7007,
Check your facts. Yamaha does provide ratings for lower impedances. The A-S3000 is rated at 150 watts/Ch RMS into 4 ohms. It's maximum dynamic power into 2 ohms is 300 watts/Ch. Even their budget-end, bipolar output integrateds are 2 ohm stable. For future reference, it's quite easy to access owner's manuals online. It's called Google. |
If the specs don't give an ohm rating with watt output then chances are it's going to have trouble. Yamaha rates only at 8 ohms. And remember that speakers are rated at NOMINAL or AVERAGE ohms. Those speakers may dip as low as 2 ohms at times and there aren't very many integrateds that are going to handle that. I remember a friend having this exact same issue with a Denon integrated a couple years back trying to drive Maggie 1.7's. The thing just kept going into protection mode....sometimes an hour, sometimes 15 minutes. You could fry an egg on it. He swapped out for another one a same thing happened. He went to another set of drivers at 8 ohms and never had an issue.
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@almarg Thanks for following up Al. I will contact Martin Logan next week. From reviewing the owner's manual on line it appears the Montis includes a 3 prong IEC connector. Thanks again and happy New Year. Don
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@arch2 Your question is a good one. And as I indicate below a follow-up question with Martin-Logan will probably be necessary to be confident in their answer. But first I’ll mention that there are two things which make this situation different from connecting a powered sub to the outputs of the amp:
1)Connecting a single powered sub which provides + and - speaker level inputs for two channels to both output channels of the amp would most likely connect the amp’s negative output terminals for the two channels to the sub’s internal circuit ground, and therefore short the two negative output terminals together, potentially causing damage. That will not be an issue in the situation you are asking about, since the amp’s two channels would be connected to different speakers.
2)The suggestion I had made of connecting a sub’s negative input terminal to a chassis screw or the ground shell of an RCA input connector on the amp will not be suitable for this application because it would greatly reduce the amount of power the amp could deliver to the speaker’s electrostatic panel, which of course is not powered by the speaker’s internal amplifier.
3)The remaining concern, assuming that the speaker has a 3-prong IEC receptacle for its AC input, is whether or how it connects the negative input from the amp to AC safety ground. What I suggest that you ask Martin-Logan is as follows:
(a)Does the speaker have a 2-prong IEC connector (AC "hot" and AC neutral) or a 3-prong IEC connector (AC "hot," AC neutral, and AC safety ground)? If the answer is 2-prong, you are good to go.
(b)If the IEC connector has 3-prongs, is the speaker’s negative input terminal completely isolated from AC safety ground? If the answer is yes, you are good to go.
(c)If the answer is no, what is the impedance between the speaker’s negative input terminal and AC safety ground? If they are connected directly together, or are connected together through a low impedance (for example, 10 ohms) I don’t think it would be safe to use the Montis in conjunction with your amp. But if that impedance is high (for example, a few hundred ohms) it should be ok.
Good luck. Regards, --Al
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almarg - Your comment really got me thinking about subwoofers connected to the as3000. I knew not to connect a sub via speaker level inputs simply because of what was stated in the owners manual, but I have been considering upgrading to Martin Logan Montis speakers which have an active woofer in each speaker. I'm not 100% sure that will work after thinking through all of this. And I won't even pretend to understand much about electrical engineering. I emailed Yamaha but haven't heard back. Emailed Martin Logan and they suggested the connection will be fine with the as3000.
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I had the same problem on my a-s2100. on the back there is a little switch to turn on/off the auto standby. turn auto standby to OFF that worked for me. I never had another shut down. let us know if this helped out. happy new year!
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dhpeck - If you don't mind let us know how your replacement as3000 works out for you. Happy New Years
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ha ha wolf, right? Well it sounds amazing to my ears so hopefully new unit will work out. If not, I'll replace with the Yamaha model that comes with two wheels.... |
That sucks man, especially since Yamaha makes decent motorcycles and pianos. |
Can you run a connection from the terminals on the speaker to the sub? No, absolutely not. That would result in the same issues that would occur if you connected to the amp’s speaker terminals. However what would probably work ok, depending on the specific design of the amp, would be to connect the + inputs of the sub to the + outputs of the amp, and connect either or both of the - inputs of the sub to a chassis screw on the amp. (I’m assuming here and in what follows that one sub is being used, rather than two, and that the sub provides inputs for two channels). That is what REL recommends for their subs when connecting at speaker level to an amp having balanced or bridged outputs. I can’t envision a design for which that approach would cause damage. The worst thing that might happen, depending on the designs of the amp and the sub, would be a loud hum. But chances are it would work ok. An even better approach would be to solder one or both negative wires from the sub to the ground shell of an RCA plug (or optionally two plugs, using one for each negative wire), leaving the center pin unconnected, and plugging it or them into an unused RCA input connector (or connectors) on the amp. In the case of the A-S3000 and other integrated amps providing "main in" connectors, it would probably be preferable to plug in there, rather than to an input intended for a source component, since that figures to provide a more direct path to the ground of the amplifier section. In cases where the sub provides speaker level inputs for two channels I suspect it wouldn’t make any difference whether one or both negative input terminals of the sub are connected, as the two negative input terminals of subs which provide two input channels are most likely connected directly together within the sub. Regards, -- Al |
honeybee2012, I would error on the side of caution and NOT hook an active sub to the terminals of the speaker if that speaker is connected to the AS3000. From the Yamaha AS3000 Manual: CAUTION
Because the power amplifier of A-S3000 is of the floating balanced type, the
following types of connections are not possible. Connecting with the left channel “–” terminal and the right channel “–” terminal as well as “+” terminals (Fig. 1). Connecting with the left channel “–” terminal and the right channel “–” terminal inverted (cross connection, Fig. 2). Deliberately connecting with the left/right channel “–” terminals and metal part on the rear panel of this unit, as well as accidentally touching them. Do not connect your active subwoofer to the SPEAKERS L/R CH terminal. Connect it to the PRE OUT jacks of this unit. Do not connect a component with no volume control, such as a CD player, to the MAIN IN jacks, as the volume level of the signals input to the MAIN IN jacks is
fixed. If such equipment is connected, a sound may burst, and the unit and/or
speaker may be damaged.
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My sub only has 2 RCA connectors in which I connect to the pre-out right/left on the amp |
Regarding Sub connections:
"connecting a sub to the speaker terminals of this amp is a no no"
Can you run a connection from the terminals on the speaker to the sub? |
Thanks Al got it. I know I didn't do that. Will wait on new unit and go from there |
Were you thinking perhaps the sub was plugged into the speaker connections? I was asking if you had ever done that to make sure it wasn’t the case, because if you had ever done so it could easily account for the symptoms you described. And I suspect that the Martin Logan sub you mentioned in another thread provides both speaker level and line level inputs. Also, perhaps pointing out that connecting a sub to the speaker terminals of this amp is a no no will prevent someone else who may read this thread and has the same amp from damaging it. Good luck. Regards, -- Al |
@almarg - I've had the sub plugged into the pre-out connection as recommended. Were you thinking perhaps the sub was plugged into the speaker connections? |
Dhpeck 12-24-2017
6. I just unplugged my Sub now as the rca cables are a bit bent up;
however it didn't affect play for 2 hours yesterday without shutting
off.
By any chance have you at any time had the sub connected at speaker level? If so, the speaker level connection could easily account for the intermittent protective shutdowns, and possibly even damage. As you've probably seen stated in the manual the amp has balanced outputs, meaning that there is a full amplitude signal on the negative as well as the positive output terminals. If only one sub is being used, connecting most subs at speaker level would cause the signals on the two negative output terminals of the amp to be shorted together, and would also probably connect them to AC safety ground via some low impedance. As you may have seen, the manual specifically cautions against doing that. Good luck. Regards, -- Al |
My friend has the exact same problem which is very annoying as in all other areas it is a superb amp. He uses large Zingalli speakers which are very efficient and an easy load. It goes off for no apparent reason even when not playing music at all. If it wern't for the fact that it is the best amp he has had he would dump it tomorrow. He even has the partnering CD player and it is a killer combination , very dynamic and superbly detailled but no good if you cannot tust it. I do hope Yamaha can overcome this problem.
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Legacy speakers LOVE tube amps :-)
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I listened to that amp while I was auditioning speakers and it sounded really good. There is a value to dealing with a local dealer... it's good to hear they are stepping up to the plate .. Good luck with the replacement ... |
The dealer is getting me a brand new one, as this one was also. I running Legacy Classic HDs, 4 Ohms I believe. I should mention my Yamaha a-s2000 ran the same speakers no problem with a bit less power. I pray the new one works as I can't fathom the thought of finding something else I'd be happy with. |
@elevick
That's complete bull. It's not his speakers, he simply received a defective unit. Yamaha integrateds are 2 ohm stable.
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gdnrbob, LOL / This forum certainly has a way of thinning out ones wallet. |
Sorry to hear about your experience with the AS3000. I have owned this integrated for the last few years and love it but I haven't had the issue you mention (knock on wood). Good luck with the repair/replacement. It's a wonderful sounding integrated.
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What speakers are you using? I'll bet that with an easier load the amp won't have issues. Many Yamaha's don't like driving less than 8 ohms, even if they are rated at 6. I'd never use them with 4. |
Your only only problem with 5k to spend would be the bewildering array of choices and opinions you would be presented with! 😱 |