Thoughts on Speakers for a Small Audio/Video Room

@captouch  From the pic you sent above w/ the Sonus Faber's (?) it appears to me that you need to play with moving further away from side walls--just a guess--but when you do that your listening position does change-closer to speakers. 

Have you tried using a room mode calculator?  This one came to my attention a few years back on A'Gon and it's a free app from an Austrian guy, that was immensely helpful in locating the modes in my room--and keeping my speakers and turntable away from bass nodes. It's fun to play with a wealth of information on room modes: https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc

Lastly, someone above mentioned that if you liked the Aerial Acoustic sound and wanted smaller speakers the Aerial 5T might work--they are well-reviewed and maybe you can demo them--but are standmounts.  FWIW

I’m listening to my Sonus Faber Concerto Domus as I type. Larger room and full of acoustic issues as are many. I’ve had many speakers in here over the years. Finally got it tuned in using DSP baked into Roon. I apply a room correction convolution filter created using Room EQ Wizard software plus various parametric eq tweaks to personal preference. Not easy but problem finally solved fully and cost effectively.

I find the Concerto Domus open up best at least a couple feet out from rear wall. Currently using a Cambridge Audio Evo 150 with the CDs.  Have also used  older Bel Canto C5i with the CDs.   Lots of good options there. 

@perazzi28 With the new Concerto Domus speakers, I did try a lot more positions to minimize the effect of room nodes.  I was able to hear that in certain forward/back spots, the bass was bloated and in other spots, it was much better controlled and tighter.  I have yet to go back and try that with the Aerials.  With the Aerials being rear ported, I’m sure the best spot will be different, but it’s worth a try.

What I am able to say is that, at least with a speaker the size of the Concerto Domus, it doesn’t overwhelm the room.  I’ll have to see how the Aerials fare.  
 

As you see in my pics, there’s not much room on the back wall for diffusers, unless I put them on the cabinet doors.  As far as near-field, I need to look more into that.  I tend to like a large soundstage, and I’ve found that toe-ing in speakers compresses the soundstage.  So my perception was that near field might compress it even more.  But I could be misunderstanding how near field affects things.

@deecee Yes, I think we’ve been in the same Aerial thread on AK.  I’ll take a look at those bass traps you mentioned.

@turkster3 For me, there’s a level of bass that’s enough.  I don’t necessarily need subterranean bass, just not to feel like there’s something meaningful there that I’m missing out on.  I think at least now, with all the room contents, additional subs would be a challenge.  But what I’m getting with these smaller speakers seems enough so far.

https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/2760263
i

my ceilings are only about 7’ high. I don’t have a lot of room treatments, I just realized the full range floor standing speakers were just too much. I don’t miss bass as the B&W’s pack a good punch when needed. But I also have two B&W 8” powered subs, one on each channel, fed by the speaker terminals of each speaker. Have them set to come in where the 805’s drop off. The sound is amazing to me.

Hi Capt.

I do electronically tune my system to the room. I chose that path, rather than tuning the room to the system for primarily economic reasons. I felt that for an approximate $450.00 investment I could get 80% to 90% to where I wanted the room/system interaction to be. That’s not to say that someday I won’t also invest in room treatments, because there are pluses and minuses to everything and I firmly believe that a hybrid approach will yield the best results, but total WAG here, room treatments done correctly for my room will come in somewhere around 2k to 5k and at this time I have other expenses that are more important.

I own Aerial 7s (the original) and my room is 12’-2” by 11’ after downsizing; I ended up using GIK Impressionist Corner Bass Traps which helped.

Unfortunately, your room constraints doesn’t appear to be workable for that option (as well as bringing the speakers closer together).

Every so often, I toy with the idea of getting more suitable speakers but then there is that glorious mid range…

if you’re into open baffle and want to address the node issues, that may be helpful (or DSP).

Good Luck!

I believe that it would be well worth your time to work out the acoustics of your room before giving up on your Aerial loudspeakers.  I am not convinced that stuffing the ports are a valid approach. The overwhelming bass is due to speaker placement exciting a room node.  

Have you tried moving them forward - closer to your listening position & possibly a bit closer together?  I am getting at a "near-field" arrangement which many times helps ameliorate room anomalies.  Check-out the "Cardas Audio" Near Field room set up: https://www.cardas.com/system-setup

Diffusers on the back wall could pay large dividends as well.

You may find yourself enjoying what you have without giving up your Aerials.

Best of luck

@audiorusty No separate isolation, but there is a TT shelf attached to the wall, so isolated from my bouncy wood floors, but that’s it.

Besides the four subs and DSP, did you take a lot of other actions (room treatments for example) to make your room workable?

Hi Captouch,

Are you using any type of isolation under your turntable?

If not, I use the Townshend Seismic Vibration Isolation platform, and it works quite well.

https://www.townshendaudio.com/hi-fi-home-cinema-equipment-vibration-isolation/hi-fi-home-cinema-equipment-vibration-isolation-platform/

As a point of reference my room is 14’ 4” x 10’ 6” x 9’. My system, consists of 8 speakers, 4) 12” subs. 2) 8” mid bass cabinets and 2) mid/hi cabinets. It’s a four way system, three way active. I have been known to hit peaks as high as 119 db. The four subs help smooth out a lot of the nodes, though I still had an approximate 80 Hz standing wave issue that I have been able to eliminate by adjusting the the crossover point and using a parametric e.q. band in my DSP unit. The bass in my room has all the slam/impact that the music calls for and I have no issue with overloading the room or any bass boom at all.

You can get there with out giving up the slam/impact, you just have to keep plugging away. You might want to contact someplace like GIK Acoustics and see if they have some thoughts.

Pic of speakers in space.

I double checked the problematic track and it was 90% better playing a CD.  The Amazon Music version of Girl from Ipanema is very bad to my ears (loud and compressed and those unpleasant resonances seem to be baked into the track itself).

I acquired a new-to-me set of speakers to try out: Sonus Faber Concerto Domus speakers from 2005-6 timeframe.  Previous generations of the Concerto were stand mounts, the Domus is a smaller floor stander, but still two-way with similar sized drivers as the previous generations.  Front port.  7” midwoofer, 1” tweeter, 88dB, 4 ohms.  39” tall, 8” wide, 12” deep.

This was inspired by the fact that I enjoyed my friend’s Electa Amator II’s, which granted are a different vintage and several price classes above.

With the room armed with just the 12” wide generic acoustic panels (not dedicated bass traps) in the rear corners and the acoustic foam within all the canvas pictures in my room, but none of the large beige panels against the wall, I started to try and position them in my room.

I started out locating them forward back in the room by trying to play a bass heavy track (Morph the Cat) and position for tightness/contol and no bloat or overpowering feeling.  I was ended up 34.5/47” from back wall (back of speaker/front of speaker).  Since I have front cabinets, I measured distance of 17-18”/28.5-29.5” from front cabinet (back of speaker/front of speaker).  Again, it’s a front ported speaker.

The bass on this quite bass heavy track was low, well controlled, tight - no bloated, resonant sounding over/undertones, which I did hear at some other forward/back positioning.

I didn’t play with distance from side walls as a variable yet, but did my listening at 28.5” from sidewalls (between side wall and center of front of soeaker and 79” between speakers.  The speakers were 110” from listening position.

I was pleased with the soundstage, imaging, tonality.  There were a couple of songs that at higher volumes were a bit aggressive sounding.  Putting the large beige acoustic panels at the first reflection points on the side walls tamed those more aggressive vocals, but those songs that sounded fine without them were a little more polite with the panels in place.

I didn’t play with rake/lean yet, just screwed the spikes in all the way which results in a rearward lean.

There was one song I couldn’t do anything with (Girl from Ipanema).  When Joao Gilberto is singing at the beginning of the song, I get ugly sounding resonance, which no matter front back placement or adding more sound panels could I get rid of.  This was using the streaming version, I’ll try the CD or vinyl as a sanity check.  Even tried plugging the front ports, which helped some but didn’t solve it.  Made me wonder if whatever frequencies he was singing at was resonating with the speaker cabinet itself!  (I know most probably not, but it was a weird thing to not be able to do anything at all with that).

I’m play more songs, adjust rake/lean, fine tune from here, but it’s promising so far.

My friends has identical room size like yours. He is using diffusers, foam treatment , it works. If I were you I will audition monitors like Kef meta LS 50, Alnico Omega speakers. He also toe in about 2 inches .Your room is ok just used the right size speakers. And if you have audiophile friend let Him help you to listen to your system, sorry to say Mc Intosth and Aerial speakers for me are not good match. My  guess the Kef and omega Alnico will.

@wyoboy I do think addressing the room and optimizing speaker placement can definitely help and perhaps make my 7B’s workable.  But I guess the question in my mind is whether it’s still a matter of degree.  Meaning if you start with a smaller speaker, maybe sealed, you have fewer/smaller issues, relatively speaking, to address versus starting with a much larger ported speaker.  
 

@desktopguy Along the lines of the above, would you say that a sealed speaker would be easier, but still requires addressing the room and optimizing placement?  Intuitively, it seems to me that rear ported speakers (if limited in how far you can pull them away from the front wall) would be most difficult, followed by front ported, followed by sealed.  And size is another factor that plays into it as well in some way.

@elliottbnewcombjr I’m in the South Bay near 17/85.

Here’s one methodology I read about regarding speaker setup.  What do you all think of this?

“Start with one speaker by playing bass heavy music and dragging one speaker out from the rear wall until the bass locks with the room. As you drag the speaker from the wall you will hear the bass change in character as the speaker moves through null points in the room. Next you play vocal music and drag the second speaker out from the rear wall until you have a tight center image. In is important to note that (unless you are in a perfectly symmetrical room) the speakers may not be the same distance from the rear wall (mine are not). Next play with toein to get the right balance between sound stage. Lastly you adjust the rake angle until you hear the right balance between the tweeter woofer from the listening spot.”

If you treat the room as much as you’re willing/able, use speakers that make your treatment and placement tasks as manageable as possible, and follow an organized and logical setup methodology like the one above, perhaps that will allow one to find a reasonably satisfying result?

JSE Model 1, use UPS pack and ship

you give size and weight to UPS, they give you accurate estimate, seller simply drops them off unpackaged, in your name. You get exact price, you pay UPS, they are responsible to avoid damage. I’ve used it 3 times successfully

http://JSE Model 1 specs and review

when you paste an image ADDRESS in (top bar, 6th icon from left) enter 555 in the ’width’ box, that avoids distortions

replacement tweeters, mid, woofers all are known, I wish I had a space for them

JSE, never saw this model, seller says tweeter and 2 8" drivers

Where are you?

I’d love to hear my restored AR-2ax speakers in that space. zero ports.

because they have 10" woofers, I suspect you would not need a sub.

level controls for the tweeters and mid drivers, a tripod mounted SPL mic, a CD with test tones

combined with the OEM or built-like stands designed to lift them up, tilt them back, aim them up would do a world of good by properly aimed dispersion and various angles of reflections off floor, clg, and side walls.

................................

next, I would like to hear speakers with Richard Modafferi’s ’infinite slope’ 100db/octave crossover in your space. Joseph Audio uses the crossover in his designs, pricey, and there are vintage JSE Speakers to find, the model 2 is too large, a smaller model perhaps. There is a conversation now about JSE .5 speakers, the OP knows a lot about the other models.

OP, I"m a broken record (jittery digital bitstream?) on this topic, but here I go again--for a problematic room like this, where no matter what you do the speakers will be near one boundary or another, you should stick to sealed/acoustic 2-ways. Same for a subwoofer, though obviously using any sub in this room will take lots of trial and error.

• My home office is a similarly problematic 13' x 13' space, filled to the brim with audio and furnishings. So my recommendation is based on experience (I had ported speakers here and no matter how good they sound tonally, the interact more with the room, particularly at moderately loud volumes)

Sealed designs will generally interact less with your room, in particular allowing you to put the speakers closer to the rear wall. And at least to my ears, sealed designs sound more natural in the lower bass than ported designs to begin with.

I can recommend the smallest of ATC's "Professional" speaker line for your application, the SCM12 Pro passive speakers. These take real power to get going, but sound amazing at all volumes.

@captouch  I agree with @soix to first work with speaker placement in your new room--i too run Aerial Acoustic speakers (7T) in a room 1' smaller than yours in the long dimension but 2' wider side to side--i do have a nearfield setup which i like as this is purely a music room but if you're opposed to that you may need to go with different (smaller) speakers and many excellent ones have been recommended.  Fact is there are always lots of speaker options for any size room but there's nothing wrong with your 7B's and i don't think they are too powerful for the room--perhaps some REW measurements to ensure they are not located in bass node areas would help but in your place i would work with them first...

Another vote for Audio Note Type K or J….nonoise… Bass NOT base… Base is for Baseball or a cabinet base…. BASS like in Double BASS or BASS guitar…..jeezz

@turkster3 Thanks for sharing that.  How far did you go with room treatments before deciding you wanted to go with smaller speakers?  How high are your ceilings?  And final question: Do you miss the bass since I assume the smaller B&W’s don’t go as low?

I had the same issue, 11.5 x 18 and had full range floor standing Revels. Ended up going with B&W 805 D4’s and instead of my two ModWright KWA-150s Stereo amps biamping the speakers, went to mono and biwired. b&W’s need the amp/power. Have the speakers on stands sitting about 27” from back wall, and 17” from side walls and toes in toward my center sitting position. Speakers ended up about 83” apart and so out my listening chair about the roar away and the sound is amazing! I also have room treatments in the back wall to keep the sounds waves from bouncing back towards the front and some just behind each speaker. I have a wonderful sound stage! Hope that helps!

captouch

No I don't own the BMRs. I had just purchased a pair of Buchardt Audio S400 MKII stand mounts when I got a chance to listen to them. But I do remember how much I liked the BMRs

I was using a pair of Chameleon Towers.  Pretty much entry level.

@vthokie83 Are you using the BMR’s yourself?  They’re very pretty looking indeed.  In this case, I wonder whether they’re still too big for my room.  Don’t want to overcompensate, but I am trying to right-size the speakers for my room.

@rjinaz86323 What Sonus speakers were you using before switching to the Linns?

my room is also very small (10' x 11').  I am using Linn m109 stand mount speakers, powered by a. Linn 100 Class D amp.  Very happy.  I previously use a low-end pair of Sonus Faber speakers and was equally happy with them.  I only changed for aesthetics.

captouch

Good recommendations with Fritz and Revival, and I'd also throw in the Philharmonic BMR stand mounts.....beautiful speakers to look at, $2,200 per pair, and shoot WAY above their price point......check out some reviews

@markmn Thanks, I’ll search for that video.  I agree that it’s good to be educated and make decisions from there.

@nkeler Nice speakers!  Must sound great!  Wnat kind of bass traps are you using?  Is it the rule of thumb that you put bass traps behind the speakers if they’re rear ported and in the opposite corners if they’re front ported or sealed?

@captouch 

I downsized recently and moved my big dedicated audio room to one of aprox the  size of yours. I was thinking of selling my beloved B&W 802D3 speakers, which are pretty big and have substantial bass. After talking to several experts, I decided to keep them and work with the room.

I've got  two massive bass traps behind the speakers, plus additional acoustic treatments for first reflections on the walls. The room may not be ideal for the size of the speakers, but the bass never overpowers the room and it sounds much better than expected.

I hope this helps. 

I would suggest a YouTube search for small room acoustics. Darko audio has a pretty decent video. If this room is going to be your listening room for any length of time, having an idea of what is actually going on and possible solutions seems almost mandatory. Knowledge is power. (I think!) Doesn’t have to cost much.

@gkelly Yes, point taken and you’re not wrong.  The Aerials are 95lbs each and incredibly solidly built.  They were my main speakers longer than any others since my first set of real speakers back in the early 90’s.  They worked really well in my previous larger room and I thought I’d keep using them for the foreseeable future.
 

But the more I think about it, there are limits to how much I’m willing to treat the room to accommodate whatever speakers end up here.  I have 10ft between the front cabinets and my listening position (LP).  I’ve already tried to plug the Aerial’s ports, move them closer to the LP to get the port further from the front cabinets, put some panels in the corners, etc.

I don’t really want to end up with a near field setup just to get the ports far away from the front wall/cabinets, and as I’m thinking about this, I also don’t want to end up with acoustic panels all over my the ceiling, intersection points, etc.  

I chose the front and wall cabinets, pictures on the walls and cabinet doors, etc because I want some of my preferred aesthetics in this room even though I’ll be the only one in here.  I can live with some panels or traps in the corners and a couple of strategically placed panels on the ceiling or wall, but there’s a limit to what’s tolerable aesthetically to me.

In the end, if I can end up with some smaller speakers that sound really good to me and allow me to maintain reasonable aesthetics without making the room look like a recording booth or recording studio, I’m okay with giving up what are very probably better built speakers that require a lot more accommodations to make them sound good in this room.

In the $3K budget range, including the possibility of buying used speakers that may also be fairly “old” like my Aerials and have sold for a high retail price when new, I feel like I should be able to land in an acceptable place.

But I completely understand where you’re coming from in making your point and appreciate your bringing that up.

Re-posting pics so people don’t have to click the links to a 3rd party site:

Not to throw a wrench in the mix, understanding that your speakers are 25 years old. In today’s dollars you would have to spend close to $7500 for equal build quality. I’m sure that there are plenty of really good $3000 speakers out there, but to me you’re taking a step backwards in the journey. 

I’ll take a look at the Revivals. I think the challenge with any recommendations that can’t be demoed is you just have to take your chances.

Agreed, but these speakers are quite popular right now so you’d probably have little downside risk buying used as if they don’t work out you could likely sell them for little/no loss. Given the superlative reviews and feedback from people who’ve heard them the odds would seem in favor that you’d keep them so seems like a worthwhile risk to take. I’d say the same thing for Fritz speakers BTW. Here’s another excellent pair of monitors worth researching as they also get consistently excellent reviews, and I believe the seller offers a return policy as well…

https://tmraudio.com/speakers/bookshelf-speakers-monitors/reference-3a-mm-de-capo-be-bookshelf-speakers-gray-pair/

@captouch I believe he is in Marin. You could ask him if you could demo your equipment at his place, or better yet borrow a pair and demo at your home.

@yogiboy Looking at the Harbeth specs, my concern is that the bass only goes down to 75Hz.  I’d definitely need a sub in that case, whereas a monitor that went down to 38-44Hz I may be able to go without.

@soix I’ll take a look at the Revivals.  I think the challenge with any recommendations that can’t be demoed is you just have to take your chances.

@everyone I am getting the message about importance of treating the room.  So whether I do it before pursuing a smaller speaker or after as the final finishing optimization, I hear that message loud and clear.

@ristretto Do you remember where in NorCal?  That might work out great if I can drive there and demo different models and drive a demo pair home.

The thing that, at least initially, attracts me to Fritz is that it would likely allow me to bring all this lower powered tube gear into rotation.  The fact that it uses the series crossover making it an easy load usable with low powered tube gear is something that’s tangibly different and differentiates it from other monitors that are similarly sized and priced.

I also like the idea that if I do end up spending ~$3K for a pair of Fritz speakers, I’d have the option to pick my veneer and can pick something fairly distinctive and unique.  It’s a pretty conventional looking box, so a distinctive veneer is a nice option to have.

Just another quick thought ever go into a guitar center and see one of their recording rooms? Notice how it’s floor ceiling in absorption. That’s that small room factor coming into play

703 Owens Corning rigid fiberglass panels come in 2’ x 4’ x 2” thick panels. 
using the supplies I mentioned before, Including mounting hardware was less than $500 Plus my time and labor. 
The only Thing I would’ve done different is I would’ve gotten two cases of Owens Corning fiberglass panels and made some of the panel panels 4 inches thick for better base absorption. Alas, that is another project for me in the future. 
Even if you were to consult a professional, he’s gonna have you start with some form of this set up. I looked up GIK acoustic panels and they start out at $120 each for a 2 x 4 x 2“ panel. Sure the first one you make isn’t gonna be as nice as theirs, but the learning curve is really low and by your third one you ain’t gonna be able to tell the difference between who made it. Just put your first couple ones kinda out of sight. The rest will impress your friends, people Have often commented to me how nice they look.👀 

if you’re lacking in the DIY gene, I would still use a local upholster and or cabinet maker would probably still come under GIK asking price, a lot of their cost comes in shipping. I could be wrong on this, but then I’m one of those let’s support the local economy. 

Good luck in your journey, but I can’t stress enough doing this simple step Is the path you need to follow!! 

Hey @captouch , I posted a couple of months ago seeking speaker recs for my 10x12’ spare bedroom. I got a lot of great responses including the Fritzes. I had a nice talk with him and found out he was located in Norcal. I’m inSocal so unfortunately I couldn’t demo them in person. He has a trial policy where you can ship them back (at your expense) if you’re not satisfied.

I was planning to go that route until I found some Quad floorstanders on clearance at my local salon and decided to get them instead.

@OP - the volume of your room does not indicate whether it will or will not benefit from acoustic treatment. Your room is bigger than a lot of the control rooms in small studios, which, if they are commercial, will be treated. Sound on Sound magazine used to run a feature where they helped out readers with project studios and the first thing Paul White always did was address the acoustics of the space.

Since your budget is in the 3 thousand dollar range the Harbeth P3esr ( sealed woofer ) would be a good fit for that size room. I have owned them and I doubt you would go wrong . You can find them used for under 2 grand!

Here is one of the many positive revues!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqFIaiPT_kY&t=3s

If you want to buy new this dealer is in your neck of the woods!

https://www.audiovisionsf.com/collections/harbeth-audio

Here’s a nice used pair of Revival Atalante 3 monitors at a good discount that’d be well worth a look.  Best of luck. 

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650169357-revival-audio-atalante-3/

measure the room, act on data… respectable tools are inexpensive now….

@tubeguy80 I'd like to stay at $3K or below, which I think gives me plenty of options.  All things being equal, I generally like to buy gently used as there's some good value to be had in gear that's not brand new, but that's not a necessity as whatever I get next I hope will be a long term speaker.  I used my Aerials in the previous larger space for 7+ years, so I'm not a constant rotator of gear once I find something I really like.

I agree that demoing in my home/room with my gear is the best option.  Unless I'm demoing a couple of pairs at once, I think my reference point (what has to be bettered) will be the Monitor Audios I currently have, because at least they sound better than the Aerials with this room size.

Based on multiple recommendations above, I did send an email to Fritz Speakers with my situation and plan to speak to him on the phone about his product line.

I will say the hardest thing for me at this point is the temptation to buy something used that originally sold in the $3K range now selling for $1.2-1.4K vs buying something new for close to that $3K budget.  But buying used means you pay your $ and take your chances, vs finding a shop or company that allows demos like you suggested.

@captouch Not sure what your budget might be for smaller monitors, but there are many good options to choose from. If I were you I might try for a local hifi shop (if one exists nearby) that would allow an in home trial. That will probably be very illuminating, and the easy returns very worthwhile.

The next best thing after that would be some of the big online sellers that offer easy returns. Even somewhat mainstream places like Crutchfield now have lots of quality speakers. You probably have to cover the cost of return shipping if they don't work out, but that shouldn't be too terrible on a pair of smallish monitors. 

If you like the Monitor Audio sound, I hear good things about the newest Gold 50 6G which are quite small. Or, maybe a front ported design would be advantageous in your space? I recently heard the Triangle Theta Signature and was very impressed. 

@captouch  

Your welcome. Your room can definitely sound awesome ! 

@ronboco Thanks for the further info, I appreciate it.  It’s a 8’ ceiling unfortunately.  But I’ll keep an open mind on this and won’t eliminate any options without at least weighing against other options.

@captouch 

I understand your thinking but if you tell Jeff what type of sound you are looking for and send him some pics of the room he will let you know if it possible without charging you anything.I believe this is how he does it. You can ask. So you are out nothing.  If you go with him then you will pay for the design. I don’t know how tall your ceiling is but if it’s 9-10 ft it is about the same volume as my room. I am extremely happy with the sound of my system. Jeff is a no pressure person and I thoroughly enjoyed working with him. 

@ronboco My thought is that my room isn't ideal to start with, because it's smaller than the minimum volume I've read is required for a dedicated audio room.  Some people's stance is "if you can't meet that minimum volume, don't bother, it's never going to sound great".  But it's all I have, so I'm trying to make the best out of it, knowing I'm dual purposing the room (TV/Atmos and audio), loading all my media and spare gear in it, etc, so I'm consuming more room volume by having everything in there.  So it aggravates an already problematic starting point.

If I had a large enough room with the potential to be made great, I could see myself investing $ into some professional acoustic consulting.  But as it stands, I'm not sure what would likely be high hundreds to low thousands in investment with a professional acoustics company (consulting time, purchasing their custom solutions, etc) is really the right thing for a space that isn't ideal to begin with.  

It's possible that a professional company could do significant things to make my current speakers sound great, but if I invest big $ into analysis and custom treatments and it sounds better (but still not great) and it still drives me towards smaller speakers, then I'll honestly feel like I wasted my money.  Because as others have said, the optimal room treatments may be affected by characteristics of the speakers that you're optimizing for.  So I might need to do the analysis again with the new speakers.  I may be wrong, but that's my line of thought.

@gkelly How big are your panels?  Just curious.  

My current feeling is that I should do some basic room treatment (corners, first reflection points if needed, etc) and then try to find speakers that work well in the small space to minimize the remaining issues that need to be addressed and optimized for.

Then the remaining acoustic treatments can be fine tuning to optimize already good sound vs stamping out major issues.

While I suppose it's true that some combination of room optimization via treatments, EQ, etc, can make any given speaker sound pretty good in the room, if the starting point is a speaker that presents fewer fundamental challenges for the space in the first place, the sledding won't be as tough to improve things from there.