@glennewdick Yes, no idea why the pics are distorted - I tried multiple times and sometimes one pic would be okay and the second distorted and sometimes both. In the end, I hoped it was an artifact of the posting editor and it would look normal when actually posted, but nope!
I did trying plugging the rear port with some rollers up socks and added one big acoustic panel seen in the front of the room to each back corner. I think blocking the port is definitely needed if I stick with the Aerials. I also purchased right sized 12” wide acoustic panels that would fit more properly in the rear corners - those will arrive today.
I’ve heard great things about Audio Note. Will see what shows up on the local used market.
@soix I will definitely try your suggestions, thank you. At what point is a listening setup near-field? I thought the ideal was close to an equilateral triangle. If I end up say 7ft from each speaker at the LP, I guess that’s still not near field.
@yogiboy I’ll keep an eye out. My 7B’s are over 20yrs old, so no idea if the sonic character of the newer Aerial models matches what I have now, but it’s a good thought to guide me.
Thanks for all the comments so far!
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I will find a way to post unsquished pics.
The complications with a sub:
a) C35 preamp doesn’t have a sub out. So I’d need to find some sort of line level combine two channels into one device and let the sub high pass filter out what it doesn’t need
b) A sub in the rear of the room behind the listening chair is the most “ideal” place space-wise for a sub. In fact, I have a large SVS sub already there for Atmos duty. I could stack a new smaller sub for music on top, but hard to place it elsewhere unless front of room is possible, but front cabinets span entire front wall, so it would have to likely be front right side as there are no record racks there.
I could try and double duty the SVS for music, but it’s more of a HT sub than music sub
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@erik_squires Fritz definitely looks interesting. I like the idea of supporting an independent speaker maker who uses high quality components. Will keep a look out.
@nonoise I did try plugging the Aerial ports, as well as moving them further into the room, and it’s still too much. I think they’re just too much speaker for the small volume in the room here.
@gkelly I really can’t store the records elsewhere as my deal with my wife is if I got my own music room or “mini man-cave”, I’d store all my gear and media here in the room. So the only way they leave the room is if I downsize and get rid of them altogether. The round grey discs are in-ceiling/in-wall speakers for my Atmos setup. I really am trying to do a lot with the room, so there’s a 65” TV up front, but I painted the wall black to make it less obvious. For the Atmos speakers, they had to be in-wall/in-ceilling for space reasons, but it actually sounds pretty good for what it is. I don’t object to placing acoustic panels on the ceiling - it’s just harder to place them temporarily in spaces to hear the effect with gravity and all. And I’m constrained a bit by the 4 Atmos speakers in the ceiling.
@tubeguy80 Yes, it’s been a fun project. I’ve kind of given up on the Aerials as if moving them around, plugging the ports, and treating the corners isn’t enough, it’s probably just too big a speaker for the space.
I just put in the Monitor Audio Gold Reference 20’s and I’m able to get away with just the back corner treatments and haven’t had to plug the rear ports on them yet. They’re placed near the top of the speaker- 35” off the ground vs the much lower port on the Aerials (12” off the ground). Maybe this is providing some breathing room, plus it’s just a smaller speaker to begin with.
I think I’m going to play with placement of the Monitor Golds for now and once I optimize, see what I think I’m lacking sonically. In parallel, keep my eyes open for some opportunistic buying opportunities on standmount monitors, which size wise just seem to be intuitively a better fit for this smaller room.
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@yoyoyaya What do you recommend for bass traps? Is it the shape or material (or both) that differentiate a higher frequency panel from a bass trap? I suppose not surprisingly, vendors advertise flat panels like the ones I have as bass traps, so would be good for me to be educated on this
@erik_squires Am I treating for general reflections or bass in particular when doing ceilings?
@re-lar-kvothe @mesch @scotandholly Yes, more recommendations for Fritz! I should really check him out. I did go to the site, but all the models (current and legacy) are kind of overwhelming. I’m sure he can clear things up in a conversation. I grew up in SoCal and visit there 3-4 times a year. Where in SoCal is he, and does he have a sound room where he can demo different models? Seems ideal to be able to hear different models in the same environment and then go home with the one that I think fits best and demo them at home for awhile.
@mswale Yes, plenty of gear. Some low powered tube gear as well. Eico HF-85 preamp, Dynaco ST-35 and ST-70 amps, 2 x Eico HF-12 mono integrateds. So lower powered gear. I think I could be happy enough with something that went down to the high 30’s/low 40’s, which the Fritz models seem to. And their series crossover is supposed to make the speakers easier to drive, so those may be able to bring my tube gear into rotation too. The Aerials were too power hungry for them.
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@mesch Yes, I removed 3 of those large acoustic panels from the side walls already. Just left two closest to the front of the room. Can remove those if needed.
I also have acoustic foam inside all the canvas pictures on the walls. Since that rug is very thin and floors are wood, along with the IKEA CD cabinets on the walls with glass doors, I thought I could benefit from some reflection taming. But all that foam can be easily removed as well - nothing as far as “room treatments”’ is hard to remove.
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@ronboco My thought is that my room isn't ideal to start with, because it's smaller than the minimum volume I've read is required for a dedicated audio room. Some people's stance is "if you can't meet that minimum volume, don't bother, it's never going to sound great". But it's all I have, so I'm trying to make the best out of it, knowing I'm dual purposing the room (TV/Atmos and audio), loading all my media and spare gear in it, etc, so I'm consuming more room volume by having everything in there. So it aggravates an already problematic starting point.
If I had a large enough room with the potential to be made great, I could see myself investing $ into some professional acoustic consulting. But as it stands, I'm not sure what would likely be high hundreds to low thousands in investment with a professional acoustics company (consulting time, purchasing their custom solutions, etc) is really the right thing for a space that isn't ideal to begin with.
It's possible that a professional company could do significant things to make my current speakers sound great, but if I invest big $ into analysis and custom treatments and it sounds better (but still not great) and it still drives me towards smaller speakers, then I'll honestly feel like I wasted my money. Because as others have said, the optimal room treatments may be affected by characteristics of the speakers that you're optimizing for. So I might need to do the analysis again with the new speakers. I may be wrong, but that's my line of thought.
@gkelly How big are your panels? Just curious.
My current feeling is that I should do some basic room treatment (corners, first reflection points if needed, etc) and then try to find speakers that work well in the small space to minimize the remaining issues that need to be addressed and optimized for.
Then the remaining acoustic treatments can be fine tuning to optimize already good sound vs stamping out major issues.
While I suppose it's true that some combination of room optimization via treatments, EQ, etc, can make any given speaker sound pretty good in the room, if the starting point is a speaker that presents fewer fundamental challenges for the space in the first place, the sledding won't be as tough to improve things from there.
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@ronboco Thanks for the further info, I appreciate it. It’s a 8’ ceiling unfortunately. But I’ll keep an open mind on this and won’t eliminate any options without at least weighing against other options.
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@tubeguy80 I'd like to stay at $3K or below, which I think gives me plenty of options. All things being equal, I generally like to buy gently used as there's some good value to be had in gear that's not brand new, but that's not a necessity as whatever I get next I hope will be a long term speaker. I used my Aerials in the previous larger space for 7+ years, so I'm not a constant rotator of gear once I find something I really like.
I agree that demoing in my home/room with my gear is the best option. Unless I'm demoing a couple of pairs at once, I think my reference point (what has to be bettered) will be the Monitor Audios I currently have, because at least they sound better than the Aerials with this room size.
Based on multiple recommendations above, I did send an email to Fritz Speakers with my situation and plan to speak to him on the phone about his product line.
I will say the hardest thing for me at this point is the temptation to buy something used that originally sold in the $3K range now selling for $1.2-1.4K vs buying something new for close to that $3K budget. But buying used means you pay your $ and take your chances, vs finding a shop or company that allows demos like you suggested.
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@yogiboy Looking at the Harbeth specs, my concern is that the bass only goes down to 75Hz. I’d definitely need a sub in that case, whereas a monitor that went down to 38-44Hz I may be able to go without.
@soix I’ll take a look at the Revivals. I think the challenge with any recommendations that can’t be demoed is you just have to take your chances.
@everyone I am getting the message about importance of treating the room. So whether I do it before pursuing a smaller speaker or after as the final finishing optimization, I hear that message loud and clear.
@ristretto Do you remember where in NorCal? That might work out great if I can drive there and demo different models and drive a demo pair home.
The thing that, at least initially, attracts me to Fritz is that it would likely allow me to bring all this lower powered tube gear into rotation. The fact that it uses the series crossover making it an easy load usable with low powered tube gear is something that’s tangibly different and differentiates it from other monitors that are similarly sized and priced.
I also like the idea that if I do end up spending ~$3K for a pair of Fritz speakers, I’d have the option to pick my veneer and can pick something fairly distinctive and unique. It’s a pretty conventional looking box, so a distinctive veneer is a nice option to have.
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@turkster3 Thanks for sharing that. How far did you go with room treatments before deciding you wanted to go with smaller speakers? How high are your ceilings? And final question: Do you miss the bass since I assume the smaller B&W’s don’t go as low?
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Re-posting pics so people don’t have to click the links to a 3rd party site:
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@gkelly Yes, point taken and you’re not wrong. The Aerials are 95lbs each and incredibly solidly built. They were my main speakers longer than any others since my first set of real speakers back in the early 90’s. They worked really well in my previous larger room and I thought I’d keep using them for the foreseeable future.
But the more I think about it, there are limits to how much I’m willing to treat the room to accommodate whatever speakers end up here. I have 10ft between the front cabinets and my listening position (LP). I’ve already tried to plug the Aerial’s ports, move them closer to the LP to get the port further from the front cabinets, put some panels in the corners, etc.
I don’t really want to end up with a near field setup just to get the ports far away from the front wall/cabinets, and as I’m thinking about this, I also don’t want to end up with acoustic panels all over my the ceiling, intersection points, etc.
I chose the front and wall cabinets, pictures on the walls and cabinet doors, etc because I want some of my preferred aesthetics in this room even though I’ll be the only one in here. I can live with some panels or traps in the corners and a couple of strategically placed panels on the ceiling or wall, but there’s a limit to what’s tolerable aesthetically to me.
In the end, if I can end up with some smaller speakers that sound really good to me and allow me to maintain reasonable aesthetics without making the room look like a recording booth or recording studio, I’m okay with giving up what are very probably better built speakers that require a lot more accommodations to make them sound good in this room.
In the $3K budget range, including the possibility of buying used speakers that may also be fairly “old” like my Aerials and have sold for a high retail price when new, I feel like I should be able to land in an acceptable place.
But I completely understand where you’re coming from in making your point and appreciate your bringing that up.
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@markmn Thanks, I’ll search for that video. I agree that it’s good to be educated and make decisions from there.
@nkeler Nice speakers! Must sound great! Wnat kind of bass traps are you using? Is it the rule of thumb that you put bass traps behind the speakers if they’re rear ported and in the opposite corners if they’re front ported or sealed?
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@vthokie83 Are you using the BMR’s yourself? They’re very pretty looking indeed. In this case, I wonder whether they’re still too big for my room. Don’t want to overcompensate, but I am trying to right-size the speakers for my room.
@rjinaz86323 What Sonus speakers were you using before switching to the Linns?
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@wyoboy I do think addressing the room and optimizing speaker placement can definitely help and perhaps make my 7B’s workable. But I guess the question in my mind is whether it’s still a matter of degree. Meaning if you start with a smaller speaker, maybe sealed, you have fewer/smaller issues, relatively speaking, to address versus starting with a much larger ported speaker.
@desktopguy Along the lines of the above, would you say that a sealed speaker would be easier, but still requires addressing the room and optimizing placement? Intuitively, it seems to me that rear ported speakers (if limited in how far you can pull them away from the front wall) would be most difficult, followed by front ported, followed by sealed. And size is another factor that plays into it as well in some way.
@elliottbnewcombjr I’m in the South Bay near 17/85.
Here’s one methodology I read about regarding speaker setup. What do you all think of this?
“Start with one speaker by playing bass heavy music and dragging one speaker out from the rear wall until the bass locks with the room. As you drag the speaker from the wall you will hear the bass change in character as the speaker moves through null points in the room. Next you play vocal music and drag the second speaker out from the rear wall until you have a tight center image. In is important to note that (unless you are in a perfectly symmetrical room) the speakers may not be the same distance from the rear wall (mine are not). Next play with toein to get the right balance between sound stage. Lastly you adjust the rake angle until you hear the right balance between the tweeter woofer from the listening spot.”
If you treat the room as much as you’re willing/able, use speakers that make your treatment and placement tasks as manageable as possible, and follow an organized and logical setup methodology like the one above, perhaps that will allow one to find a reasonably satisfying result?
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I acquired a new-to-me set of speakers to try out: Sonus Faber Concerto Domus speakers from 2005-6 timeframe. Previous generations of the Concerto were stand mounts, the Domus is a smaller floor stander, but still two-way with similar sized drivers as the previous generations. Front port. 7” midwoofer, 1” tweeter, 88dB, 4 ohms. 39” tall, 8” wide, 12” deep.
This was inspired by the fact that I enjoyed my friend’s Electa Amator II’s, which granted are a different vintage and several price classes above.
With the room armed with just the 12” wide generic acoustic panels (not dedicated bass traps) in the rear corners and the acoustic foam within all the canvas pictures in my room, but none of the large beige panels against the wall, I started to try and position them in my room.
I started out locating them forward back in the room by trying to play a bass heavy track (Morph the Cat) and position for tightness/contol and no bloat or overpowering feeling. I was ended up 34.5/47” from back wall (back of speaker/front of speaker). Since I have front cabinets, I measured distance of 17-18”/28.5-29.5” from front cabinet (back of speaker/front of speaker). Again, it’s a front ported speaker.
The bass on this quite bass heavy track was low, well controlled, tight - no bloated, resonant sounding over/undertones, which I did hear at some other forward/back positioning.
I didn’t play with distance from side walls as a variable yet, but did my listening at 28.5” from sidewalls (between side wall and center of front of soeaker and 79” between speakers. The speakers were 110” from listening position.
I was pleased with the soundstage, imaging, tonality. There were a couple of songs that at higher volumes were a bit aggressive sounding. Putting the large beige acoustic panels at the first reflection points on the side walls tamed those more aggressive vocals, but those songs that sounded fine without them were a little more polite with the panels in place.
I didn’t play with rake/lean yet, just screwed the spikes in all the way which results in a rearward lean.
There was one song I couldn’t do anything with (Girl from Ipanema). When Joao Gilberto is singing at the beginning of the song, I get ugly sounding resonance, which no matter front back placement or adding more sound panels could I get rid of. This was using the streaming version, I’ll try the CD or vinyl as a sanity check. Even tried plugging the front ports, which helped some but didn’t solve it. Made me wonder if whatever frequencies he was singing at was resonating with the speaker cabinet itself! (I know most probably not, but it was a weird thing to not be able to do anything at all with that).
I’m play more songs, adjust rake/lean, fine tune from here, but it’s promising so far.
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Pic of speakers in space.
I double checked the problematic track and it was 90% better playing a CD. The Amazon Music version of Girl from Ipanema is very bad to my ears (loud and compressed and those unpleasant resonances seem to be baked into the track itself).
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@audiorusty No separate isolation, but there is a TT shelf attached to the wall, so isolated from my bouncy wood floors, but that’s it.
Besides the four subs and DSP, did you take a lot of other actions (room treatments for example) to make your room workable?
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@perazzi28 With the new Concerto Domus speakers, I did try a lot more positions to minimize the effect of room nodes. I was able to hear that in certain forward/back spots, the bass was bloated and in other spots, it was much better controlled and tighter. I have yet to go back and try that with the Aerials. With the Aerials being rear ported, I’m sure the best spot will be different, but it’s worth a try.
What I am able to say is that, at least with a speaker the size of the Concerto Domus, it doesn’t overwhelm the room. I’ll have to see how the Aerials fare.
As you see in my pics, there’s not much room on the back wall for diffusers, unless I put them on the cabinet doors. As far as near-field, I need to look more into that. I tend to like a large soundstage, and I’ve found that toe-ing in speakers compresses the soundstage. So my perception was that near field might compress it even more. But I could be misunderstanding how near field affects things.
@deecee Yes, I think we’ve been in the same Aerial thread on AK. I’ll take a look at those bass traps you mentioned.
@turkster3 For me, there’s a level of bass that’s enough. I don’t necessarily need subterranean bass, just not to feel like there’s something meaningful there that I’m missing out on. I think at least now, with all the room contents, additional subs would be a challenge. But what I’m getting with these smaller speakers seems enough so far.
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@perazzi28 Thank you for your PMs. I don’t seem to be able to respond yet (something about validating my email and adding a payment method). Tried to do that, but maybe it takes time to process.
But wanted to let you know I received the info and appreciate it.
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@mapman The speakers are 34.5/47” from front wall (back of speaker/front of speaker). Since I have front cabinets, I measured distance of 17-18”/28.5-29.5” from front cabinet (back of speaker/front of speaker), though with the front port, I’m not sure if the more relevant measurement is from front wall or cabinet. 29” from side walls and 79” between speakers.
@wyoboy I’ll try moving the speakers closer together. This is what the room calculator gives me:
I’m not yet sure how to interpret this, but I’ll do some research.
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@wyoboy I found the 3D graphic that shows mode locations, but aren’t zone locations also dependent on where my speakers are placed vs purely on the dimensions of my room?
My only input to the calculator was my room size.
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@wyoboy Interesting about speaker location not playing into it. I’ll have to download the app you mentioned. Looking at all the nodes, if you superimpose all bad zones on top of each other, seems like I’d be left with very little options for a good listening position.
But I do have minor room treatments now and I’m sure the volume taken up by cabinets and furniture must have a bearing. So if those are just potential/theoretical trouble zones that may be less excited if I put my speakers in a “better” position, an actual measurement tool seems the best way to actually see whether I’m in a suboptimal spot or not.
Will look forward to trying that.
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