Ct sooner, what does this have to do with Music Direct? |
Dill, very well stated. Even mail order retailers can't and won't give carte blanche full refunds, and even when a full refund is given, the shipping and handling fee is deducted, plus you have to take care of return shipping, which many consider a hassle.
There is a lot to be said for auditioning a product before purchase, especially in one's system. |
Taters,I was wondering about the same thing. What does that have to do with your MD post? |
Business models are constantly changing with the times, entrepeneurs change with it or become extinct. A good example, I live in the UK, where there is a big shift from out of town superstore groceries, to buying online and small shopping trips on the high street. Tesco, the UK Walmart, much beloved by Warren Buffett, the Sage of Omaha, is in freefall and even under investigation for possible fraud, trying to hide declining sales.
The HiFi market has changed irrevocably, live with it.
1) We are no longer a mass market, as in the 80's but a niche market, which can not easily support a B and M store.
2) The customers left are by and large pretty canny. They won't pay retail, but buy second hand, look for a good deal, a discount.
3) HiFi is not an impulse buy, if it ever was. Nowone walks past a store and says "that reminds me, I need a new $20000 amplifier", so why have an expensive store, to attract the passing trade. We all research a purchase, go to shows, read reviews, chat on line and then look for a cheap option.
4) I am not the first to say, the explosion in shows, large and small, has partly removed the need for stores, though shows are'nt the best environment to audition new kit. I look at it this way, if a system sounds good to you in a show, it must be very good indeed.
5) the rise of small manufacturers selling direct, reduces the cost and puts you in touch with the man who should know about the product. I am looking at a Music First Audio Baby reference pre. I phoned the manufacturer who said, when do you want me to come to you and bring one to audition in your system. That is easier in the UK, with smaller distances to travel.
All that being said, there is a role for B and M stores, or rather the new model that has arisen in the UK. The knowledgeable dealer working alone, from home, not a store, to reduce costs. There are many of those in the UK and I have had great service from a number of them. They rend to deliver and set up, advise on tweaks etc. In fact, give some value to the extra cost entailed in using a B and M store.
There are real advantages as well as losses to us customers, in cutting out the dealer. A small manufacturer in the US, who is a friend, but I won't name, talked to me about cost breakdowns in the High end. He said an $80000 speaker, sold through distributors and retailers, would have a material, labour and factory fixed costs, of $20000 at most. A lot of that excess costs is in dealer and distributor margins, but a massive amount in advertising and marketing. The small guy has none of these costs, relying on word of mouth.
So we all lose in the demise of the Band M stores, but there are real gains too, particularly in price. |
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Well said David12 except I don't feel much lose with B&M demised. Positives definitely outweighs the negatives to ME. |
Knghifi said: "Well said David12 except I don't feel much lose with B&M demised. Positives definitely outweighs the negatives to ME."
Look at it this way, if all the B&M stores evaporate, you would be left only with two options to audition & buy new audio gear.
1) Buy the item from an online dealer and have it shipped to you.
2) Listen & buy the item from an audio show.
Both 1 & 2 will cost you money if you want to return it.
Only option 2 allows you to listen to it before you buy.
Most B&M stores in this country will let you listen for free, some will let you take the item home for audition for free.
Now, if you do not want the item option 1 & 2 will cost you money, while your local B&M store might not.
Bottom line, without B&M stores it will cost you to audition gear in your home system.
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Taters and Yogi, thanks for calling me out on that post. I have MS and deal with cognitive issues at times. I thought I was posting on another thread where many of us were discussing meeting up on Saturday.
On topic, I don't understand why some of you come across as hoping that B&M stores go away. Why can't there be all options? In the end, that's the best thing for everyone. It gives those of us the ability to go listen before we purchase and it keeps many of us who can afford nice components a place to purchase them. That still leaves plenty of room for the rest of you who want to play hit or miss purchasing online. I realize times change, but I've lived through the demise of vinyl, which has never gone away for many of us. There have been some bold statements made in this thread as if it's an absolute that B&M are going away. It makes no sense and neither does it make sense that the MD guy is the best analog guy in the country. I think when you make statements like that, it takes away from some of your other points that are interesting (at least for me). Like I posted earlier (I think it was in this thread), I like MD and have dealt with them since they started, so it's not like I don't like the guy or his business. Just think that your original post is wrong and that just because he offers a return policy that REQUIRES an explanation (it's written on their site so it's irrelevant what they tell you on the phone unless you can prove it in court, which would never happen), plus you are also out the shipping costs. I just can't see how this type of policy would ever do anything to hurt a store.
In addition, based on the brand they carry, I haven't found anything that I'd have in my system other than some digital stuff as I went cheap until things work themselves out. When you deal with higher end audio, many folks want the whole experience of sitting and listening to their own music and hearing how things work together as a system. Even my kids like audio stores and the oldest is 18.
Again, I wasn't trying to hijack your thread. |
I actually meant to say Bess is one of the best analog guys in the country. I used to deal with the best analog guy in the country but he passed away 3 years ago. The one and only Mr. Brooks Berdan. |
Ct could you give me the link of the thread you mention? |
11-20-14: Ctsooner
On topic, I don't understand why some of you come across as hoping that B&M stores go away.
Why can't there be all options? In the end, that's the best thing for everyone. 11-20-14: Dill
Look at it this way, if all the B&M stores evaporate, you would be left only with two options to audition & buy new audio gear.
1) Buy the item from an online dealer and have it shipped to you.
2) Listen & buy the item from an audio show.
Both 1 & 2 will cost you money if you want to return it.
Only option 2 allows you to listen to it before you buy.
Most B&M stores in this country will let you listen for free, some will let you take the item home for audition for free.
Now, if you do not want the item option 1 & 2 will cost you money, while your local B&M store might not.
Bottom line, without B&M stores it will cost you to audition gear in your home system. I don't wish for B&M demise but their business model cannot compete with more efficient models. It's a new economy and just taking advantage of all the positives. There are reasons malls are food courts, haven't use ATM to withdraw $$ for 10+ years, all bills are paid online ... World keeps on evolving and I'm trying to evolve and adapt to it. I'm not the commander and chief and with a stroke of a pen, sign an executive order to save B&M. With the internet and technology, there are more efficient ways to sell products. Commander and chief is working on an internet sales tax. When gov picks the winners and losers, we ALL lose. I digress ... With technology, home based businesses are popping up in my area. They drop components off my house to demo or demo in their homes. With lower overhead, I get a better deal so both parties win. One owner grossed $1,000,000+ last year working part time while keeping his full time job. |
I certainly wasn't suggesting I am happy to see the end of B and M stores, just that their day may be over. I think we will all lose without them. There simply aren't enough Audiophiles around to make them viable and those who are left have adopted a new model for making purchases. Many of us are looking for buy direct or second hand bargains and won't pay the premium for personal service in a store.
Store owners need to wake up and smell the Roses, and do that soon. Giving up the Main St store and working from home or a cheaper lock up small industrial unit, open by appointment. There are many ways to develop interest, small shows run by a single store in a local hotel, having open evenings with wine and canapes demonstrating how good music and film can be with the right kit. Business's in the UK are doing that now and I am sure they are in the US. You can't just sit there in an empty store waiting for the odd customer to come in. They also have to be welcoming. All of us have experienced the assessment as you walk in a store, mentally weighing your wallet, before they even deign to acknowledge your presence. If you are welcoming, maybe you won't make a sale the first time, but the 3rd or 4th time they come back |
Chrshanl37 I was going to email you so as not to hijack this thread but I didn't see anyway to do that. Sorry. It's on Matt's DAC shootout thread that is very very long right now. He lives near Audio Connection and we have a few posts over there about Richard Vandersteen's visit and meeting up.
IRT this thread, I think there are pros on both sides. Just like any business, we will continue to see all B&M stores needing to 'keep up' with what the customer's want. They will do this or they will go out of business. For years now, all I've heard is that online is putting the stores out of business.
I've been around this business since 1970 and have gotten to know many in the industry as I'm a networker type of person. One of my closest friends closed his doors around 2002 or so because he thought home theater was going to put him out of business as his prices were so much higher. The irony is that in speaking with Richard Vandersteen last year when he did his yearly AC visit, he spoke about going to the very high end speakers as THEY were the ones selling the best. For whatever reason there is a huge rift right now in audio....I'll use the $300pr speakers to say 3k a pr (just to give an idea of what he was saying) and 6k-unlimited a pr. There are big markets still for both. We can and will all live in harmony for a while still regardless of a return policy that the OP has said is one thing, but on the MD site it says something totally different.
There have been many points brought up in this thread and so far I don't think we've seen any absolutes, do any of you? I do have one other question that's been talked about a few times in this thread and that's how anyone can audition anything in a show environment. When I'm spending over 20k on something I just can't justify buying anything that I haven't heard properly vs at least a couple of other products. I'm lucky as I'm in CT and there are still at least 4 or 5 stores in my state alone and then I have Boston, NH, NYC, NJ and even DE ..... I'm lucky as I recently upgrades my whole system. That is the biggest reason I've heard soooooo many products that are out there and that includes the very small companies products that are sold via 'home stores'.....Some I've liked, however there are some well known 'direct' type of companies who sell via mail order, but have a few 'home stores' that carry their products and none of them impressed me. I've heard a few others that impressed me greatly, but I was still concerned about the future and getting parts etc. if something went wrong. I'm older and older school than many of you who will only buy used on the net or via the direct route. I fully understand both sides and my personal opinion is that there is still room for both sides and will be for a fairly long time. JMHO |
That's fine guys, however high end audio is still and will continue for the near future to be about emotion...The music and not the product of the month. That's the difference that some of you don't understand. I'll put my system up against any other system put together for what I paid for it all. most of the B&M guys are doing it for love still and there will always be some room for that. I've always taught my kids that it's only a good deal if you get something that you love for less....I'm happy for you KNG as well as the rest of you who only deal online. You can point out why YOU like online better than B&M and established brands, but that doesn't make you right or wrong, just like my opinion is just that....That said, I've lived long enough to hear the demise of so many things because of computers, then online etc...and for most things I'm still waiting..... |
Why does everyone think that if you buy from a company that sells product's directly to consumers, avoiding the middleman/retail store, that you save money? Isn't it possible that they are charging the same price that a dealer would sell the same product for in their B&M store, and just keeping the extra profit for themselves? |
Isn't it possible that they are charging the same price that a dealer would sell the same product for in their B&M store, and just keeping the extra profit for themselves? I don't think that there is any question that B&M stores have the potential to add value. If the internet direct price is the same as it was w a B&M dealer, why would a manufacturer go internet direct? There would be no motivation for the manufacturer to continue that arrangement. I would very surprised to find that manufacturers do not deal with an on-line dealer the same way they would w B&M stores, setting minimum selling prices. |
"I don't think that there is any question that B&M stores have the potential to add value. If the internet direct price is the same as it was w a B&M dealer, why would a manufacturer go internet direct?"
They would go direct to sell in areas where they don't have dealers. As far as pricing goes, the companys that do sell both direct and through dealers, usually only sell at full list price. If they sell for less than list, they would be competing with their B&M dealers. |
Zd- my point is that I have to assume that the motivation to go to a direct or internet sales model is to be able to lower the price to be able to be more competitive. If you did that and then allowed the internet dealer to set the price at or close to what a more traditional sales model would require, then you'd be shooting yourself in the foot. |
"11-23-14: Swampwalker
Zd- my point is that I have to assume that the motivation to go to a direct or internet sales model is to be able to lower the price to be able to be more competitive. If you did that and then allowed the internet dealer to set the price at or close to what a more traditional sales model would require, then you'd be shooting yourself in the foot."
That's not the case, though. For the most part, a company that has both type of retailers makes the internet seller charge the same price. They do it to just reach places that have no local dealers. Also, internet sellers are not supposed to sell in zip codes that are reserved for B&M stores. A good example is Music Direct because most people here know them. They sell brands like BAT and Rega. I know they're not supposed to sell them in areas that have local dealers. There may be exceptions, but this is generally how its done. |
They will keep on trucking forever. |
I was at a dealer yesterday with a bunch of audiophiles (many who do buy online). Most felt that if a boutique manufacturer was able to get their wares into a B&M, that most would do it in a heartbeat as their advertising costs can actually be higher than you think. They must do shows which cost a lot and they have to have their internet presence along with getting their products reviewed etc... There are two business models here that will co exist for the foreseeable future and that benefits all of us in the long run. |
If you look at most of the big, well established brands in high end audio, they only sell through B&M stores. And they are very selective about who they let become dealers. I don't see any other way they can do business. |
Well done Ctsooner-
I like having B&M stores. We cannot listen to gear over the net. Furthermore, it is a wonderful thing to establish a relationship w/ an owner of a B&M operation. This cannot be accomplished over the net. Happy Listening! |
Zd- I think we are talking past each other. I was referring to distribution through internet sales instead of B&M, not both modes for the same lines, and thought that you were, too. I see that you were not. I would note, however, that in the case where internet sales reach a market where B&M is not available, then they would not compete w each other. So IF that were true, then MD's 60 day policy would not be the death of B&M. I know that's a big IF, but we are talking hypothetical. |
"11-23-14: Swampwalker
Zd- I think we are talking past each other. I was referring to distribution through internet sales instead of B&M, not both modes for the same lines, and thought that you were, too. I see that you were not."
Yes. I should have been more clear. I was referring to companies that really can't do business any other way than a B&M store.
"I would note, however, that in the case where internet sales reach a market where B&M is not available, then they would not compete w each other. So IF that were true, then MD's 60 day policy would not be the death of B&M. I know that's a big IF, but we are talking hypothetical."
I agree with that, as well. The only thing I would add is that when a company distributes both ways, they usually force the internet type company to sell at list price. Otherwise, it will be direct competition. |
