Thinking INSIDE the Box.


The quality of the cabling INSIDE our “high end” components is a crap shoot.  It shouldn’t be.

 

I’m going to go out on a limb and make the bold statement that if you’re a regular visitor/contributor to the A’Gon forums you’ve probably drank the Kool-Aide on high performance cabling.  If you’re anything like this OP, you may have chugged the entire pitcher.

 

We use speaker cables and interconnects to sling music signals to and from those boxes we own, and we take that task very seriously.  My guess is that you’re not using the same speaker cables or interconnects you used on your first “real” system. To say you’ve been “persnickety” about your lifetime selection process is probably an understatement.  You’ve arrived where you are today thru experimentation, research and, most likely, an appreciable financial investment in cabling.  Remember the time when you were outraged when you discovered you couldn’t live without those $1/ft speaker cables to upgrade to your system?  Hundreds, or even thousands of dollars per foot is, quite often, the price of admission to a competent, high-resolution system.  You’ve also learned, over time, a bit about cable materials, geometry, dielectrics, termination materials and methods, etc.  In other words, you know a decent cable when you see one.  Or, at the very least, recognize it when a cable aligns with your world view of what “real” cables should look like.  We were a Focal dealer. When we took on the Utopia Series we were sent a very nice flight case with Focal “internals” proudly displayed.  Included were “meaty” speaker cables that looked impressive.  But, after a few moments, it became clear that these were not “audiophile” cables.  Just something more substantial than production grade wiring – in speakers in the high 5-figure price range (at the time).

 

So, we take home that new amp, DAC, source component, or speaker, and we have no idea whatsoever what’s inside. Okay, you’re a prominent audiophile and you call up your speaker manufacturer and say: “Hey, cut me length of bulk speaker cable (same length as your speaker cables) with the exact same cabling you used inside my speakers and let me A/B them with the cables (that I carefully selected) connecting the amplifier to YOUR speakers.”  You may find that those internal cables actually sound better than yours.  Not likely.  But, thought I’d throw that in just to be somewhat objective.  Or you may find that the signal has been bent, folded and mutilated – completely unrecognizable compared to your reference cables.  Regardless how stellar, or awful, they are, it is a certainty that they will sound DIFFERENT than your speaker cables.  My bet is that after all the time, energy, stress, and anxiety you expended finding the “right” cables for you, this one just isn’t going to cut it.  Try the same experiment with interconnects?  I’m predicting the same result.  Power cables?  Okay, I have to acknowledge that some in this group are not sold on power cables. But the point here is that what’s inside the chassis is significantly different than what you purchased to go from the wall->power conditioner to your equipment.

 

So, our hundreds/thousands of dollars per foot cables are carrying the signal, for example, to a speaker.  When it reaches the input terminals, it’s commonly pushed through the crossover and on to the raw drivers via the “gravel road” of production grade cables costing pennies per foot instead of the taking hundreds/thousands of dollars per foot expressway that got it there.

 

I think might be helpful to give you a little background before a submit a summary and call to action.

 

In the late 80’s I was developing a speaker system (that I later received a patent for).  For prototyping purposes, I outboarded the crossovers so I could have easy access to them.  I put lugs and spade connectors on the components to make rapid substitutions of a seemingly infinite number of component substitutions required for A/B testing.  After I finally got the voicing where I wanted it (okay, with the least number of sonic warts) I clipped off the spades and lugs and soldered it all together.  I was completely blown away with the improvements in detail, focus, and imaging!!  This is the moment I became a strong believer in signal path integrity. 

 

In our “retail” business we sold a little $350 Yamaha shelf system.  It “was what it was” but held its ground as a good example of a “consumer” compact music system at under $500. We were pretty “hip” on premium cables at the time and our best-seller was a $1/ft cable from Audioquest.  One day, I decided to substitute the cables in the box with 12” of AQ cables.  For a mere $4 upgrade, the sound quality of the little shelf system improved at least 20%.  Then, we tried some “better stuff” and the upgrades were quite substantial.  This is the moment I learned that even short lengths of cables mattered.  So, yes, internal wiring, regardless of the length can be improved.

 

We’ve been involved in performance upgrades for a couple of decades.  The purpose of this thread is not to attempt to give a seminar on internal improvements.  We had the opportunity to snag a couple of identical mid-priced power amps a few years back.  (Power cable doubters look away.  You’re probably not going to like this).  We did a complete power delivery upgrade from what plugs into the wall, to replacing all the internal high voltage cabling (and, yes, fuse upgrade).  The mod’d amp just didn’t sound better.  These amps didn’t sound like they were made in the same factory.  They were THAT different!

 

Admittedly, our experience is limited to equipment in the low 5-figure category.   I can’t speak to components above that range.  They may use BETTER stuff that what we are using externally.  Our part time business has one prerequisite:  the equipment must have an emotional connection to the customer.  For this reason, we don’t place a “you’ve got to be this tall to ride the ride” sign on our front door.  We’ve done Sonos mods with surprising results. We’ve performed Bose 901 speaker AND equalizer mods, and I found myself sitting in front of them enjoying the music.  We’ve improved the power delivery to vintage receivers and amps with an amazing improvement in musicality.   Don’t laugh.  It’s going to take plastic surgery to get the smiles off their faces.  And, yes, we’ve hand built custom speaker crossovers for out of state customers (with pigtails attached).  We’ve ripped the factory wiring out of good electronics and replaced it with “audiophile quality” cables (same material, or better than the customers aftermarket interconnect or power cord), clip of spades and lugs and secure it all with silver solder connections. 

 

Summary:

 

It's worth pulling the top off those electronics and looking inside.  Or yank a woofer out of those speakers and point a flashlight at the crossover.  Crappy cabling, spades and lugs, and high-level signals running thru traces in a PC board are pretty good (bad?) indicators that major sonic improvements are an absolute certainty.  I understand warrantees are void when you “mess around inside” and some of you aren’t going to be comfortable tearing into you high-dollar investment.  I also understand that some cables are very difficult to impossible to work with.  A “dumbed down” version will still perform heads and tails above what the factory provided.  I’ve taken old cars apart and reassembled them producing results that were better than the original.  On the contrary, I took delivery of a Rivian R1T in March.  I have no desire to start pulling off panels and poking around inside.  Rivian wouldn’t appreciate that either.

 

I’m not looking for more work.  I am retired and this hobby is a (VERY) part time business.  But, if you have a competent tech in your area (or, have good-to-excellent skills with your Radio Shack soldering station), it might be worth an evaluation.  If you get a thumbs up, you can check into obtaining a bulk quantity of your favorite cables.  Or, if you’re fortunate enough to own hand-crafted components, it might be worth visiting with your manufacturer to see if they’ll entertain a cabling upgrade – AND, keep your warranty intact.  They’ll tell you that your full of crap.  That’s okay.  Do it anyway.

 

It doesn’t matter if It’s a humble piece of gear you’ve held on to from your college days, of something modern and exceptional, a little can go a long way in your pursuit of a more satisfying musical experience.

128x128waytoomuchstuff

@dekay I am very familiar with the piano black Yamaha compact systems.  I agree they sounded very good for their price point and had a quality look and feel.

It sounds like you've been adventurous in your audio pursuits and have been rewarded for your efforts.  Yes, getting things out of the way of the signal and/or power path can produce stunning results and allow components at any price to punch well above their weight class.  

I also want to thank you for engaging in a meaningful dialog and preserving a little dignity and respect for this otherwise disasterous thread.

I was thinking of the Yamaha Piano Black series, but I didn't run across them until the early 2000's and by then they were $500-$600 retail.

Amazing sound, for the price, in a small room.

I've upgraded internal wiring in various budget gear (TDS Passive Audiophile/Pilot 240 amplifier/Radio Shack Li'l Rat phone preamps, and used 2 in mono form to boost the power from the AA batteries).

I run my speaker cable (47 Labs OTA) directly to my vintage single drivers and the male RCA connectors on my interconnects have zero metal mass - just the copper wire of the OTA wire makes contact to the female RCA.

Initially screwed up on the Pilot 240 by using lighter (26) gauge solid core copper for the bus/grounding and had to replace it with 18 gauge in order to reduce noise.

One of the EE's (Jon Risch/John Curl) helped/corrected me on the grounding wire gauge - either here or @ AA (it was a long time ago).

I've also hardwired speaker cable to a few power amps, but convenience eventually won out.

My mantra is the less globs of metal in the signal path the better it sounds.

The scariest thing I've tried was running "naked" solid core silver interconnects mated to the 47 Labs RCA connectors (great sonics/super high stress level;-).

 

DeKay

 

 

Post removed 

@ spenav Thanks for the input.  Seriously.  I'll try to be more concise next time.

@ mapman I can't think of an instance where upgrading the internal signal path didn't produce clearly audible improvements.  Budget components become more "listenable" with reductions in strain and grit, while revealing layers of detail and imaging that were simply not there before.  Mid-fi gear begins to take on "audiophile" qualities: warmth, detail, improvements in tonality, chord structure, and space between the notes.  The "good stuff" is even more revealing while producing a more dynamic, yet more relaxed, and less fatiguing presentation.  We don't often use the terms: "improved dynamic range" and "higher resolution" in the same sentence.  But, it does apply in this case.

@tablejockey Skip to the summary?

@jjss49 I probably "earned" some of that.  Got right to the point.  I can learn from that.

There is something very special about the cables we painstakingly selected to connect our "boxes" together.  What's "inside the box" deserves the same consideration.

Thanks for the replies.

Was the $350 Yamaha shelf system your cost ($350) or the retail/selling price?

 

DeKay

I think you are using circular logic, which to me proves you should not spend a lot of money on cables.   I spent a lot of money on cables, so therefore it must be worthwhile and therefore the cabling inside my equipment may need to be upgraded.

What good is it to spend a lot of money on cables when the equipment cabling is cheap sounds like a much better argument to me. 

Yeah, a lot of words to say internal wiring within components can be improved. I became curious about this at the very beginning of incorporating better IC, speaker and power cords in my systems. Couldn't understand the sense of using  this cable when I discovered generic crap wire within components, from that  point on I began swapping out internal cables wherever possible.

 

I now research wire, and all parts within components in consideration of purchases.

 I didn't get past the opening sentence.

Hoping to read what the thread is about from the responses.