Thinking about upgrading, but wondering about diminishing returns
I have mostly Conrad Johnson Gear-- LP260M SE mono blocks, with 8 kt120 tubes each. These are SET amps that put out 270 wpc. I have the Conrad Johnson ET5 preamp, with a Telefunken 6922 tube, and a pair of EgglestonWorks Viginti speakers (their new take on the Andra's). Phono stage is the Pass Labs XP-15. For source material I have a Rega RP10 with the Apheta2 cartridge, and the Oppo BDP105 (Modwright upgrades) CD player. I have Audioquest Colorado interconnects (go easy here :) ) and Audioquest Oaks for speaker cable. My listening room is 13 x 19, carpeted floor, drywall walls and ceiling (well insulated). I set up with the equipment on the long wall, with me listening from the 13' side (with speakers in about 2 feet and about 8.5 feet apart).
I listen to a mix of vinyl and cd's; vinyl when I have several hours to listen quietly (and clean the records on the Clear Audio Matrix Pro Record Cleaning Machine). I listen to CD's when I have less than an hour, and for when I work out.
I am thinking about upgrading a single component, probably my preamplifier, to a Conrad Johnson GAT2 or a Pass Labs XS preamp (solid state). My thought was that this will likely make the most improvement in soundstage, imaging and overall musicality. A used GAT2 will be at least $14K and the Pass XS used is about $19K. I am interested in hearing from those who have had experience with upgrades like this. I am also wondering (as a middle class guy) how close does this come to the law of diminishing returns? Finally, is this the component you would upgrade, and if so, if you had a wide range of musical tastes-- mostly classical/full orchestra in vinyl and rock on CD's, which preamp would you select?
Please feel free to take a swipe at these questions, and also feel free to point out if you feel I should be asking different questions that will help increase my knowledge and advance the cause for others.
I am likely to go to an audio show sometime, but please don't suggest that I go and listen to the gear, as that's at least 200 - 400 miles, and I don't feel right about going to a brick and mortar store knowing that I will almost surely buy used.
Thanks in advance for whatever assistance you can provide.
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Going to a really good brick and mortar store might be even better than going to a show because you can swap equipment in and out; that way you can hear what each piece is adding, not adding, or even detracting from the whole. There is so much you can hear and learn at a good brick and mortar store because of the professional service; that in the long run is worth every penny that it costs. I really miss them. |
You have a nice setup already! I would take a walk down the path of upgrading your power without ANY doubt first dedicated line/lines! You may want to look into one of the audiophile inwall cables available and receptacles. Then move on to power cords. There are many brands available, where to start? Find a dealer near you if available and ask for in home demo. If no close (60 miles) , find an on line dealer with years of experience give them a call and discuss your situation. I recommend David at Weinhart Design. A vary knowledgeable owner/ operator , who takes his business seriously! Try one or two used power cords (source first, then preamp). In the system you have I would say $1000.00 to $1300.00 each budget. Audition them for a couple of weeks and decide if you like the results, and then call David again. If you do not like them David will likely allow you to return them for better new or refund/credit towards a component which the two of you agree upon. He as helped me a lot over a several year period!! This will help you find out what your next weakest link is! Take your time an enjoy your music as you go. |
Before you spend any more money on gear, buy Jim Smith's book Get Better Sound. Arrange your system per his recommendations, then do acoustic treatment per his recommendations. You will be amazed how much better your system will sound. The setup and the room will contribute at least 50% to the sound you will hear. Get the basics right first. Tom |
Three comments: 1. You don't say what makes you unhappy with your current set-up, but you mention that "soundstaging" could be improved. This usually means there's something wrong with the speaker-room interface. Look there first. Most speakers sound better firing into the length of the room., but there are many exceptions. They may be great speakers, but maybe not in your room? I've found that once the room/speaker interface is solved, the rest is icing on the cake. 2. The Apheta2 is ideal for the RP10. The turntable, cartridge suspension and motor were designed as a system.You won't find a better match. 3. Your power amps are not single-ended, except in the first stage. They are ultralinear, balanced. |
This past fall I spent trying to get the most from what i considered decent gear. Speaker placement is still o going and i find changes in one area were compounded by tweeking speaker / sitting position. Changes were 20A dedicated on 10 gage wire. Didn't her much P15 regenerator, night and day change. Like a new system . Biggest bang for the buck. 0 regret Power cables. Still working on this. Wall to regenerator big improvement, 2nd best improvement. same cable to DAC , not as much GIK treatments, not as much as I expected. Good place to start would be bass traps in the corners |
Your biggest bang for the buck? It ain't no $15k component! The biggest (no soldering required) audio bangs for the buck, in no particular order: BDR Cones under everything. BDR Pucks, Those Things, Shelf under everything. Synergistic Research HFT, ECT, PHT throughout your room and system. Cable elevators to get your speaker cables and all other wires up off the floor. Anti-static spray. Pay through the nose audio prices or whatever you find at Safeway, either way just spray it. XLO Calibration and Burn-In CD: play the demagnetizing tracks at least monthly. Radio Shack bulk tape eraser. Works on things you'd never expect or be able to explain, like CD's. Felt pen, Sharpie, or paint pen edges of CDs. Scotch tape, dress interconnects. Tape measure, framing square, laser level. Only takes a tiny speaker misalignment to undo even many thousands of dollars worth of components. Radio Shack SPL meter. The cheaper analog one. Best of all, unlike the mega-buck component you've been conditioned to want so bad now yet which will in no time be found wanting and traded off just like you're doing right now, pretty much all the above tweaks will work just as well with anything and everything, forever. |
You have such an amazing system, so I imagine you could easily feel underwhelmed with the difference that a component upgrade might make. You mentioned you play a mix of CDs and vinyl but you did not mention streaming. Instead of replacing a component, have you thought about adding Roon and streaming from Tidal to the DAC in your Oppo...... if you don’t already do so? Roon is a fantastic user interface that encourages you to discover more new music and play wider selections of music in each listening session, therefore it could add another dimension to your listening experience. The sound quality I achieve with my Roon Nucleus streaming Tidal via a PS Audio Directstream DAC is as good I ever achieved with CDs or vinyl. I hope you like my suggestion. Good luck with whatever you decide to do! |
My recommendation may well be ignored. I know I certainly ignored this recommendation for many years unfortunately. But after 40+ years into this hobby, or I should say lifestyle and at age 71, I finally acquiesced when my dealer brought me some used Transparent Audio Opus power cords and power conditioner from another of his customers who was upgrading to the next level of Transparent cords. (Transparent Audio has a very liberal upgrade program.) Of all of the equipment changes, upgrades, acoustic treatments, I have made over the years changing out stock power cords for high end power cords and a high end power conditioner has made the biggest difference. If I were starting over, it would be one of the first upgrades if not the first I would start with. You may not need to make the upgrades you think you do when you hear the clarity, the soundstage, the separation of instruments in the soundstage this will bring. It also reveals more easily the upgrade you might want to make later. I have a high end system but not a super high end. Dynaudio C4 speakers,2 Rel G1 subwoofers, Simaudio Evolution 860 power amp and 740 preamp, T+A 8 DAC, NAD M50.2 Digital Music Player, Exposure 13 phono stage, Clearaudio Performance DC turntable with Satisfy tonearm and Dynavector XX2 cartridge, Transparent Audio speaker cables and interconnects, GIK absorbers and diffusors for acoustic treatments, IsoAcoustics GAIA III speaker feet and GAIA I feet for the turntable will soon be added. |
I agree with those who suggest that you look into up grading your cabling. AS an overall guide towards an investment strategy to achieving your goals of improving your soundstage, imaging and overall musicality - Text Book - one should invest about 25-30% of the total budget into cabling/power delivery. Power is the most important foundation of your system. I would say that the MRSP of what you have is upwards of $70K, which means that an investment of about $20k MRSP should have gone to towards that end of the budget. By using the used market, you can definitely shave that $20K down substantially and probably fall into the budget you have for investing in an upgraded preamp. Ultimately getting a much better return on your investment. As far as Diminishing Returns - I believe that is purely based upon your personal goals. If your goal is purely financial then this is the wrong hobby for you. If you enjoy music and are looking to enrich your life with the artistry associated with audiophilia the better the return. As a fellow middle class guy I would say take your time, educate yourself on the products that are out there. Stay true to your goals and remember there is no one way to achieve them. Most of all be patience especially in dealing with a used market. AND ENJOY!!! Check out: Thales Cables - best signal/speaker cables for the $$$ period. Also great Turntables. http://www.tonarm.ch/en/products/accessoires http://www.aaudioimports.com/ShowBrand.asp?hBrand=30 https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649309042-thales-precision-interconnect-cables-rca-to-rca-15-met... HB Cable Design http://www.hb-cable-design.com/1_english/ps_2.html High Fidelity Cables http://www.highfidelitycables.com/products/power/ct1u/ https://www.audiogon.com/brands/high-fidelity-cables Stage 3 Concepts - Power Chords are their strong suit. http://www.stage3concepts.com/PRODUCTS_main_page.htm Analysis Plus https://www.analysis-plus.com/ Oyaide MTB 4 or 6 R1 Power Distributor http://www.oyaide.com/ENGLISH/index.html Audience http://audience-av.com/conditioners/ar6/ https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649484119-audience-ar6t-power-conditioner-wo-power-cord/ |
There are lots of ideas here. Maybe, buried in all these suggestions, is the one that will transform your system as if by magic. But how will you know? Not mentioned is how your room is treated. The room is the most important component. If you haven't treated it, then start there before you change the gear at all. I promise you will hear the difference. |
+1 for going to an audio show. I've only been to one - RMAF, but it was so worth it, and for several reasons. First - you get to check out a ton of systems, starting from $1,500 all the way to high six digits. Second, you get to find out where you are at (in non-absolute and somewhat subjective terms, but still - unless you have access to unlimited amounts of cash you will never be able to setup all these systems in your house!). I was pleasantly surprised to find out how good my system sounds vs. quite a few others with twice the money. I was also caught off guard how some systems under $10K really pulled me in. I look for a good value (best price/performance ratio) when it comes to a system setup rather than having a "Star component A" that makes it all worth while. Third, you get to meet a lot of cool people and tap the vast pool of knowledge and experience. All sorts of cool giveaways and raffles are held throughout the show, I saw a guy win a pair of $5K Nordost interconnects! Go, have fun! |
Lots of good responses here. I agree with most of these and wouldn’t really add much. i too have an all CJ system that lives in my living room. I do not have the luxury of having a dedicated sound room. I recently removed all the furniture from the room and was shocked by how amazing the system sounded. Made me realize that room treatment was holding me back. Now what to do.... |
I am a novice entering the audiophile world. This said, I don't know how upgrading and spending so much money on speaker cables can make that much of a difference in sound. I wonder if someone could explain this to me, as I have read several articles where the author said expensive speaker cables are a waste of money. However, before considering expensive speaker cable, I would be more inclined to purchase more expensive speakers. I agree with some of you. Going to an audio show to listen to various systems will certainly help you to make your decision. However, many of the vendors who are demonstrating their gear are doing so in inferior listening rooms. |
@lous I'm sorry to hear that your Sota/Souther/Benz analog front end caused LPs to sound less than good overall. My VPI TNTVI/SME IV modified/Benz Ruby3 on a Townsend Sink sounds fantastic. Most LPs are quiet to as quiet as a CD. Used LPs sound great despite the imperfections. Record noise is in the background while the music is dynamic (I resell poor sounding/inferior performance recordings-to date 18,000 records have visited and left my music room). I have great cabling and equipment which minimize extraneous noise relative to the music. 78s often sound very dynamic with great performances. The Sugarcube digital pop and crackle remover works on any recording that has such and is easy and very effective as heard on many internet demos. I found that a dozen well placed PP Omega E-Mats to be a fantastic enhancer of music enjoyment; however, the new Gate appears to kill the need for a dozen's cost by providing 100X the effectiveness at $5K. I was hoping that the E-Mats placement at equipment locations are substantial enhancements on their own and would add more than their cost to the Gate. PPs manufacturer could better address this issue. |
I’m in a similar gear setup as yours and one thing I’ve done that has vastly improved my enjoyment is getting a Tidal subscription and listening to the MQA titles there: wow. I wasn’t a big believer in MQA but hearing it has changed my mind. One great thing about Tidal is they have the standard CD-quality version as well, giving you the ability to A-B all the titles. Anyway, just a thought; sometimes it’s nice to have your focus shift back to the music, instead of that “new gear” trap we all fall into. Good luck! |
Ill second GIK room treatments. I’m in the middle of treating my room. I just added GIK absorbers at first and second reflection points. WOW. Sounds as if I upgraded my system instantly. My next move is corner bass traps then ceiling absorbers. Cable differences are much more apparent with my treatments. I just purchased new ZU Event power cables for my amp and pre. Background seems a little darker ( just a tad). Im not certain if I would notice without the treatments. |
