A guy in Rochester NY is selling a CS3.7 for $4K but it is local pickup.
Status update on my CS3.7 refurb.
1) I was able to contact Rob Gillum today and we discussed the resistance measurements on my crossover. One speaker, the good one, had 0 resistance on the tweeter, What the heck happened there. I was thinking I would need to disconnect the crossover and send to Rob. Not something I wanted to do.
However, after opening up the crossover module I see the white positive tweeter wire disconnected from the crossover. Maybe it got disconnected when I moved the speaker to the garage for painting. I did use kid gloves with the transport but maybe not careful enough. This speaker was the one that was measuring stronger on the high frequencies on the SPL measurement. So the wire must have got disconnected after the measurements. The re-soldering of that tweeter wire was tricky but got done. I measured the resistance again and everything was good on both speakers.
I added the 2 new COAXs that I got from Rob. They are the black ones from 2014. I packed up the old COAXs to send to Rob for analysis. If they are good they will be my backup drivers.
2) I finished the paint job. It was a 9/10 until I became more ambitious and decided to touchup a smudge on the aluminum shell of one speaker. I added some of the great 3M painting plastic to cover the wood in a small section. Painted it and came back the next day to remove plastic. Unfortunately, the tape on the plastic stuck too tightly on the new paint on the wood and took some paint off. Awww!. I fixed that with some sanding and touchup but now that side is a 7/10. I can fix it perfectly with some sanding and a full coat on that side but you can only see the touchup if you look closely from an angle. Maybe I will fix that but for now I have the speaker placed so that I never see it.
3) I added the new outriggers I got from Rob,. I like the way that looks and functionally useful so that my son does not topple the speaker. I managed to do all of this work without my son seeing what the drivers look like. Which is a good thing.
As I listen to some John Lennon, the sound now seems correct. I was told that the new COAX needs about 200 hours to settle. However, given the massively messed up nature of the speaker when I brought it home, it sounds the best I have ever heard right now. The COAX is not as smooth as it will get but it sounds so much more coherent across all the frequencies. A bit like the Yamaha NS5000.
All of this cost me about $2000 extra. With paint, 2 new COAX, outriggers, solder kit (and self training), multimeter, and the Recoil kit to fix the COAX thread. What a nightmare but a great learning experience on speaker builds.
I will measure the speakers next week and hope the results are perfect. If so, I can continue with my DRC implementation. |
3.5' mids replaced with Madisound's '13M replacement' scan-speak 10f with adapter ring.
My experience to date (and a little advice):
Loosening the tweeters needs to be done with just the right screwdriver and much care. I had a ratcheting screwdiver with a perfect bit. The screws area deep and tight. Leave the top screw in and remove bottom two then loosen to be able to remove the mids.
The mids themselves come out easily. White wire is positive. There is a red paper washer under the terminal on the speaker which I did not notice at first. Black one on neg. side (duh)
The waveform rings will come off with with a strong sharp folding knife to pry it apart from the driver. It is perhaps hot glue that holds them together. It is not epoxy as I had feared.
The waveform rings have a ridge that fit the original M13 but do not work on the replacement. You will have to hacksaw it off if you want to use it on the 10f or put the new ones in without them.
Measurements and impressions: I took some less then laboratory spec measurements and recordings with a condenser mic into Logic Pro.
email me noams@rum comcast.net if you want pics of spectrum.
At 10" lined up on the mid centers*:
From 200 to 4khz the graphs looked fairly similar. Above 4khz. The 13m's drop off on an even slope The 10f's fall off less evenly, drop off a bit at around 7K then bump up around 11k
* (yes I'm picking up some tweeter too)
Measurements done just after driver install - no burn-in
Listening:
I did not do any burn in but have about 10 hours on them now. Mostly a variety of well recorded Jazz and alt-country.
They are very transparent and detailed but to my ear (at this point) the upper mids through lower hi's sound more pronounced and tad exaggerated. I hear it on vocals through snares and hi-hats. Come to think of it even upper bass is affected. I did not carefully compare sensitivity and was not super careful running pink noice at the exact same level each go round. I am suspecting they are bit more sensitive and are boosting everything in their range (which is a lot with these crossovers) in their own very detailed way. **
I am hoping further break-in will reduce this. Imaging is as good as ever. On some material they sound great, and overall the sound is still very impressive - but to my ear the originals seemed more balanced. They sounded 'just right' on almost everything I threw at them. Some of this impression may just be what I'm used to.
One of my original 13m's is still good and the other has a bad surround but is otherwise good. I found a rubber surround that seems to fit perfectly and will at some point replace the foam on one or both of them.
For now I will keep these in and play the 'SH' out of them for a while. I'll report further impressions after they've had more hours on them.
Thanks to those here who helped with this endeavor.
** I do a bit of my own DIY on tube guitar amps and guitar controls but haven't tweaked crossovers at all. If further break-in doesn't land me where I want to go I'm wondering if a simple voltage divider or dropping resistor right at the driver terminal could in effect reduce their relative sensitivity to the other drivers without mucking up the overall sound or screwing anything else up.
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I see all sorts of cs 3.6 for sale online. Should I tag one or should I keep the funds for a pair of 3.7? I just like the looks of the 3.7 better. |
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There’s a thiel audio group up on Facebook. |
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I used to own the A23 with Thiel SCS4 (also Bryston 7B-SST) and it was a very warm sounding amp. I think I prefer the more neutral sounding amps with the CS3.7. https://www.parasound.com/a23.php |
Anything on the a21? The article there they used it on the thiel 3.7 |
NAD M33 - I may have a listen to this tomorrow at the local shop. https://nadelectronics.com/product/m33-bluos-streaming-dac-amplifier/NAD has 2 more Purifi products a 7 channel and a pure 2 channel. They are working in close collaboration with Purifi. I spoke with the owner of March Audio in Australia and they are given high marks on ASR web site for quality products. I was thinking of getting this but went with the Benchmark AHB2 before I bought my CS3.7. https://www.marchaudio.net.au/p451There are other Purifi based amp builders, The ASR web site has good discussion on these other manufacturers. I was discussing amps for the CS3.7 with a guy from Brazil who has the CS3.7 and has tried a few amps with them. He is also waiting on Bruno to release the next iteration of the more powerful Purifi modules. For me, after the AHB2, any future amp has to be silent. I started a thread on A’gon earlier in the year titled, "Removing a zero from the price amps". A lot of info posted on that thread about Purifi. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/removing-a-zero-from-the-price-of-amps?highlight=removing%2Ba... |
Purifi modules? What current amps have this? |
I had a Bryston 3B-ST and a 4B-ST and they were a little hard on top. I would not like it paired with my current 3.7. I also had a 7B-SST and even that was a little strong on top and I would not pair it with the 3.7. I did pair the 7B-SST with the SCS4 and it was a little too bright on top. I believe the SCS4 and the 3.7 has similar COAX drivers (maybe not the same). I get fatigued easily so others may not have a problem with the ST or SST.
If you wait a few more months the Purifi modules with 1000 watts into 2 Ohm should be released by Bruno et al. The goal of these Class D amps is to remove a 0 from the price of amps. It should be a great match with the 3.7. The NAD M33, which was Stereophile's 2020 product of the year, has the first iteration of the Purifi module.
Other manufacturers are pumping out quality Purifi amps for $3K and under price. I am waiting on the next more powerful Purifi amp for my 3.7's. They are supposed to sound like my great Benchmark AHB2 amp. |
Nice to see that CS 3.7 manufacturing video again. Been a while since I'd watched it.
BTW, I finally got around to trying my borrowed Bryston 4B3 amp on my Thiel 2.7s. Have only gone through a few tracks back and forth with my CJ amps. Short version: I prefer the tubes :-)
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Parasound a21 what do y’all think for Thiel 3.7/7.2 also considering Bryston 7bst. Selling my whole entire second system cause this thiel system is too good |
Tom,
I strongly recommend you writing that book, you are Thiel, your stories told here make us dream of a still living Thiel, it's like I was there among the workers, I can smell wooden flavour, see Jim developing new ideas, people in the lab taking measurements. In this moment I feel I'm no sitting in front a pair loudspekers, they are undoubtedly part of music history. Please Tom, consider writing such book.
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Tom thanks for the response! I’m glad they filmed it I wish there was more. No doubt alot of care and expertise went in to building them. David
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Fitter - that’s a very good question; and it deserves a bigger answer than we can provide here. Let’s start at the end. No, an assembly-line wouldn’t help. Let’s also start with some apology in the philosophical sense - on what do I base my summary assessment. Short answer is experience, longer answer includes lots of work through lots of details, and I suppose we might include that I presented these conclusions at International Woodworking Fairs, a manufacturing convention that alternated between locations in Germany and the USA.
The problem of mass-assembly goes back to the industrial revolution and revolves around the nature of human enterprise and labor. Modern production methods try to simplify and comodify labor with a hope to replace it with a machine operation for lower cost. Such a strategy assumes many things including the wish to treat labor that way, and also the large quantities required or desired to pay back the investments.
Thiel Audio wasn’t made that way. We were a company who sought to provide good livelihoods for good people making good products for good customers. You can substitute the word right for good and land close to the Buddhist concept of right livelihood. Big discussion, little time.
But on to some practicals. Part of your question might include how little seemed to be accomplished in the video. I can assure you that video was made in an empty factory in slo-mo for the sake of clarity. I like the video; I had not seen it before. Rob Gillum made a sneak entry in the finishing room, and I hired him and one of the other guys in the 1980s; they’ve been part of the story for a long time. What a trip. Let’s visualize those production spaces with 20 to 35 busy, skilled people populating them, moving like they know and care about their work. Our productivity factors were world-class.
Now let’s touch on some history of small-unit manufacturing at Thiel. In the beginning Walter Kling and I created a medium batch manufacturing process, limited by physical shop space. The 01 and 02 were made in batches of 40 and the 03 in batches of 20 because the first shop wouldn’t hold any more than that. It looked like a small, crude but effective line in that each person tended to do the same operation to whatever speaker was coming past him. With four standard wood finishes plus a half-dozen optionals, those runs were always a blend of back-orders and speculation for who might want to buy what. You might see a problem brewing here. If we had Walnut available, someone would want Rosewood, etc., and everything unsold had to be stored. When we moved to Nandino Boulevard in 1981, that batch number increased to 100 and then to 200 as space increased. Now add more products and more finishes and dealers who sold to the taste of the customer and there are, let’s underestimate, more than a dozen finishes x 5 or more products. Do the math. So the work of the early nineties became developing an effective and efficient production method with a batch size of one unit or pair. That story is deep, wide and long, and includes Vifa as well as worker skill sets and longevity, and labor and customer payment schemes. It’s a good story for the book. Remember the book?
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Bonedog, I would be curious about your measurements before and after you installed your new midrange. Did you use rew? |
Also anyone know of any floor outriggers I can get for my thiel 3.5? |
brskie
Nice system! Happy Listening! |
Do you guys think nakamichi pa-7 amp will be sufficient for 3.6/3.7/7.2? |
Yyz. Great video thanks for posting the link ! I never thought about all the handling and changes to make the cabinets!! Tom thiel do you think “an auto assembly line style “ would have been feasible and more productive building speakers ?? Or does space and costs out weigh the advantages?? David |
Tomthiel and the Thiel Owners Thread
I bought my CS 2.3s in 2000 while owning a Linn source and electronics.
LP12 > Karin pre > LK280 > CS 2.3 using Linn standard interconnects and K20 speaker wire.
In 2017 I upgraded my system after my Karin and LK280 finally died. I bought a new TT, a slightly used Linn pre and an old Linn recapped amp. My system then was:
Klimax LP12 > KK/1 > Klout > CS 2.3 using Chord Sarum T interconnects and Chord Epic speaker wire.
This major $$ upgrade was a revelation as to what I was hearing coming out of the speakers. Between the TT and pre I was hearing so much detail that I never knew existed within the groves of my vinyl. The klout also allowed quite a bit more bass to come through. However, the system was too bright and fatiguing. The Linn pre was very detailed but way too sparkly. I sold the pre and bought a Pass headphone amp. I did this because it was cheaper that buying a "true" Pass pre and it had a very good preamp section in it. Now I was running:
Klimax LP 12 > HPA1 > Klout > CS 2.3
What a difference the preamp section in that little HPA1 made. The Thiel's started to come alive. I mostly noticed the vast improvement in the bass control. I was on a roll now. I sold the Klout and bought a Pass X 250.8.
WOW. That amp had such grip on those Thiel's. The speakers opened up so much that I was really able to appreciate my front end. I was now running:
LP 12 > HP1A > x 250.8 > CS 2.3
Th next obvious upgrade was to a true Pass pre. I decided on a Pass pre for the synergy. This upgrade brought me to my present system:
LP 12 > XP 22 > X 250.8 > CS2.3
With this new pre the soundstage completely opened up with wonderful imaging and such tight bass. When I put on an AAA acoustic record, I turn down the lights, close my eyes, and swear that I am attending a house concert.
It has taken me 20 years and all these upgrades to make my 2.3s the weakest link in my system. And that is really saying something for the quality of my "little CS 2.3". |
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Beetle - thanks for the link.Tmsrdg - I'll speak to the geriatric speaker problem. Yes, there are concerns, but not very centered on ageing of materials in Thiels. We paid lots of attention to longevity, our finishes have ultraviolet screening agents, driver surrounds are rubber for very long life, etc. If someone places the speakers in direct sun without the grilles, there may be some hardening/stiffening of the surrounds to raise resonance frequencies. I suggest keeping them out of direct sun and with their grilles on.
The main concern is fatigue of the tinsel leads in the drivers. We spec'd really good braided leads, but they eventually fail, especially if overheated. The CS5 drivers are presently serviceable via CoherentSource Service and/or their manufacturers. Work is being done to stabilize that service into the indefinite future. The other potential vulnerability is crossover capacitors. The CS5 is pretty bulletproof. Almost all of the caps are film, primarily film and foil, which have extremely long lives (indeterminate.) There are only 6 electrolytic caps, all in parallel shaping circuits, so their failure would be quite benign. Thiel used ultra high quality electrolytic caps with a rated service life of 40 years - but speakers generally are used far less than service ratings assume. As mentioned in the bulletin Beetle attached, storage is an electrolytic cap's worst enemy. Another hazard of old electronics is solder joints. The CS5 was when we chose Alpha's SAC305 solder which is used by NASA for space duty gear. I've never seen one fail, but retouching those hundreds of solder joints would increase peace of mind.
In short, I think that age is a problem in old speakers, but much less of a problem in old Thiels because we considered longevity in our mission.
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For those of you with electrolytics in your Thiel crossover (is that all of you except me?), you might watch this new “pints with Ayre” episode: https://youtu.be/gr9u6-ifUXkAround the 22 minute mark, their engineer describes EL lifespan as affected by heat, current, and age. And, apparently, bad things can happen to ELs if stored in your basement for years. |
Brskie - it would be good information for all of us to tell us what your previous system was, what you changed to, and what specifically you hear. Just a request to help calibrate us on our journey. Thanks.
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Brskie - good to meet you. Your point person is Rob Gillum at CoherentSource Service who worked at Thiel from 1988 through the present. It seems to me that there was a coax driver upgrade that people considered substantial and a couple of XO mods to accommodate it. Rob would know.
Beyond that, I am not working on the 2.3, but we could apply the general solutions we've found which include Mills MRA-12 resistors and ClarityCap CSA caps, especially in the coax feed position. Others here have done it and we recommend it for a DIY project.
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Tomthiel
Hi Tom, happy to meet you on the forum. Do you have any solutions worked out for upgrading the CS 2.3? I have read in the past that something was done to improve the Xovers, but that was years ago and I don't remember what it was. Any info would be great. With my new electronics I feel like I have a new speaker. I am finally realizing how much this little 2.3 has to offer after 20 yrs.
Thanks,
Bruce |
A friend has revealed he has a pair of very rough thiel cs 3.6. Tweeters and a midrange driver is out iirc. What are the services available regarding the drivers on the 3.6? |
beetlemania
I enjoyed the recent review on the AX-5 Twenty via HiFi News & Record Review as well. Pretty remarkable that they chose 2020 to review/test this Integrated amp.
Happy Listening! |
beetlemania
Thank You for the follow up to my Fuse query. I concur, the stock fuse is plenty good enough for my ears. Across the other Audio forums, there is not much information about fuse exchanges in AYRE gear.
Happy Listening! |
tomthiel
Thank You for the CS4/CS5 Thiel Audio history lesson.
I hope that you are well this Holiday season.
Happy Listening! |
3090
Welcome! Good to see you here. Tell us more about your musical taste and system around those 3.6 and 7.2 speakers.
Happy Listening! |
brskie
Welcome! CSS is operated by Mr. Rob Gillum in Lexington, KY.
Phone: 859.554.9790 Keep us posted on the upgrade path for your CS 2.3 loudspeakers.
Happy Listening! |
Hi everyone.
I am looking to bring my 2.3s up to date with any updated crossovers, driver surrounds etc. Where is this Coherent Source? Is it a shop that one can drop their speakers off to be upgraded? I would love to bring these speakers that I have owned for 20 yrs to a new level of performance. Thanks for any info you can help me with.
Bruce
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bonedog -
I feel your pain, waiting for that once (maybe) in a lifetime combination of lust and price. But if you run across a used ST85, don't turn up your nose. With luck you may find one around $1k. After all, you can ride the bus when the car breaks down, can't you?
:-) :-O
Harry |
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Not sure I would completely agree with the dark side of sounding neutral. But I will agree proper gear will award with superbly clear neutral sound. |
Tomthiel,
All due respect, Thiels aren't bright at all. In fact, properly amplified, Thiels are a little on the dark side of neutral. I have 7.2's and 3.6's, and whenever people come over expecting to hear bright, harsh sound they are floored. And I tell them all the time, forget what you've ever heard about Thiel, 90% of the battle is getting the amplification right. Everything after that is season to taste. Thiels need pure muscle. Some amps have it and you just need to find one that sounds the way you want.
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My luxman just came in and had made the setup so much more musical, cleaner too! Midrange and high end is much more smoother. Bass is much more hearty and full. |
Thank You Tom. I'll do a battery check just in case. |
Mdiaz - you are not alone. "Brightness" seems to be Thiel’s Achilles Heel. And saying it isn’t so can bring ire from non-believers. Critical consensus places Thiel as quite flat in response, without the common high-frequency droop, and Jim was adamant to not fudge the response to make them easier to take. But there is real stuff going on there, and that real stuff is central to my present work with rehabilitating classic Thiel designs.
I have developed a long list of upgrades that serve to tame that perceived brightness, and that work will see the light of day someday. But I must say that my first and largest recommendation is to work on your room. People say it, they say it here, and elsewhere, but it is hard to believe how big a deal it is. The reflections and chaos are often full-range, but the most obvious and irritating band is in the lower treble brightness range. About a year ago I spent a couple of weeks chasing weirdness in my playback studio, and when the dust settled the sound was so much more articulate, relaxed and alluring that I barely believed I was listening to the same system. This mitigation work is tedious and lacks the glamor of buying new equipment, but man is it cost-effective and satisfying.
But, even if your room is nearly perfect and you’ve chosen mellow gear, and you avoid over or poorly produced recordings, Thiel may still be too close to bright and forward for your tastes. I am certain that I am identifying causes and crafting solutions. I’ve mentioned some of them in this thread over the past couple of years. There are more. For example, right now I am working with wire. Thiel used an aerospace-grade top notch wire, and that was as far as we took it. Jim would settle an issue to his satisfaction considering hardcore science with listening verification, and then put that inquiry behind him. There is only so much bandwidth available if a one man design house wants to keep breaking new ground. But, I know that he did not consider the transmission line propagation anomalies in the wire runs, nor some of the subtleties of EMF interactions. Indeed those models and science were not very accessible then, and even today remain obscure and fringey. But they are real and sonically consequential, even if not thoroughly understood or modeled. A new wiring harness will be quite different than stock Thiel 18/2 solid in teflon. And there is always more. And as I've mentioned before, I believe the ear-brain is qualitatively more critical of such problems when presented with a phase coherent signal which it accepts and scrutinizes as 'real music'. A book could be written about that.
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Rob - yes I have and yes I would like to. I believe Thiel Audio represents a brief place in time when small-scale upstart enterprises were possible and appreciated. I have been collecting material and hope someday to have the time to pursue it. I've been forthcoming here, but that just scratches the surface. It was a very wild ride.
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bonedog - in speakers white is plus. The other may be tan, which is minus. I recommend you test with a battery: D cell or 6v lantern. Momentary contact only. Plus makes the driver move forward. You can see the woofer and feel the tweeter.
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Pulling the mids and I thought the phase would be obvious. It's not.
There is one wire with kind of subtle red or rust coloring. The other white. No + - on the driver. I aim guessing the colored wire is positive but wanted to check with those who know.
Hope you all had great Thanksgivings. |
I owned a pair of CS7's several years ago. The dynamic "slam" I got from them in some pieces of music was absolutely amazing. An upgrade from Thiel at the time was supposed to improve the high end but it never happened, IMHO. I sold them because they sounded too bright for me, even with good tube amps. |
