Thiel Owners

Considering a Classe CAV-150 for my CS 2.3s.  Can't find a pro/definitive review with measurements, but based on everything I have read, this should be a good match, esp with my goal of cleaner treble and a bit more body in the mids.  Not thrilled about buying a ~20 year old amp tho, y'all got any advice for me?

One Thiel-related thought. That amp is rated for 4 ohm minimum impedance. Your CS2.3 rides around 4 ohms over much of its range, but drops to 3 over a broad area from 100 to 1K Hz, and touches 2 ohms at 400-500 Hz where there is lots of musical content. See the Stereophile review. If I were throwing that load at that amp, I would seek real hard-core knowledge and experience. More to the point, I would default to believing Classé, and not burden that amp with that load.

thosb --I used a Classe ca-100 for years with my old 2.2s. Then I bought a Classe ca-300. BIG difference: dynamics, stage, you name it. Couldn't believe I had lived with such low power for all those years! I still have the 2.2s (which I plan to sell), but now run my 3.7s with the Classe ca-300. It sounds terrific, but a teeny congested on orchestral climaxes, stuff like that. So I'm on the lookout for an amp upgrade at some point.

Is anybody else using or have used a Parasound aA21 on the cA2.4’s. I use a one for years.  I’d be interested in what others thought. Specifically about how the amp and bass response were handled. 

tmsrdg - for what it's worth, you might offer those 2.2s to this group first. I know it's all vaporware until we have real upgraded speakers for comparison and review, but I anticipate significantly better sound from the new hot-rodded 2.2s.

Tom,
Sure. Of course I want my old speakers to find a knowing and happy home. I am thinking currently that I will hang on to them and get the upgrades done, and then sell (unless they turn out to be better than the 3.7, hard to imagine, though...). I’m very curious as to what changes will transpire!
Todd

Tomthiel,
My experience is exactly as you say; Thiels need high current power. My 2.4’s woke up when I hooked up an fpb 300 Krell. I had 2.2’s for years, then 2.3’s and finally 2.4’s. I am convinced that I under powered them all, even with the PM 2000 EAD, which was not a high current amp. I used Krell 250 monos with CS6’s which worked well, 
I think I just talked myself out of a pair of 3.5’s, as I realized I need to get a high current amp, despite the good price for the 3.5’s.

michaeljbrown

Good to see you. Thank You for sharing your story w the Krell power amp.  Hope you are enjoying the CS 2.4 loudspeaker. It is very fine indeed.  Happy Listening!

Todd - Hard to imagine, indeed. The x.7 drivers are really something special, plus all the accumulated knowledge / growth in the functionality of the enclosure.

michael - very true. The power hunger is, in my opinion, the primary limiting factor to musical performance for Thiel speakers. I was very surprised how much better the Krell FPB-600 performed than the 300. If a new entity emerges to take Thiel designs into the future, I would explore replacing the voice coils for 4-ohm minimum impedance in the extant motor structures and crossover topologies. I believe the trade-offs would be solidly net-gain. Presently, only a few very expensive amps do a good job. All the complaints like "wimpy mid-bass, unauthoritative deep bass, congested crescendos", etc. are symptoms of inadequate current delivery. Buy the high-current amp. What are you considering? I am considering the PSaudio BHK-300 pair to contrast my Class´DR-9 pair. 

Continued thanks for all the help, here’s another possibility, Sunfire 300, recently serviced and recapped.  Not thrilled about build quality or age but based on specs and reviews this should do well?  Not looking for an end state by any means, just a low cost improvement over what I have (Krell kav 350iL) and something that will keep me happily listening for a year or two.  

thosb

I originally heard this power amp when new back in 1995, 1996 on Vandersteen 2 series speakers of the same time period. An AMC cd player was connected to it and Audioquest cabling rounded out this system.  The Sunfire had plenty of power to drive the Vandy speakers on Rock music playing as loud as I could tolerate without an degradation in presentation.   It would be interesting to re-visit this beast from Bob Carver to determine if it still holds up well.

Happy Listening!

Thiel's first stable of amps included the Phase Linear 400, designed by Bob Carver. I am interested in how the Sunfire 300 holds up. The design orientation and specs certainly fit Thiel speakers' demands.

Next amp was Nelson Pass' Stasis 500 with world-first (to my knowledge) dynamic bias. Those amps do the trick.

Tom,
You wrote,"I was very surprised how much better the Krell FPB-600 performed than the 300." But you are considering the PSaudio BHK-300 pair. Isn't that pretty much in the same, or even slightly less league, as the FPB 300 in terms of power? How about one of the bigger Classemonoblock pairs?
Todd

As an aside:
 I'm driving a pair of CS 2.7s with a Bryston 4BSST2. I have a 14x22x12' living room, and the 4B can drive the 2.7s to very loud volumes without discernible distress or  apparent loss of SQ. (Classical and organ music only - - no jazz, rock or heavy metal)

Tom
Jim Thiel steered me to Bryston with my 3.5s, and I've stayed with the 4B series since. 

Todd - you are correct. My needs are somewhat different than "best sound I can get". I hope to assemble a small stable of amps that would be paired with Thiel speakers and are different from each other in sound and topology. And I have to find them at bargain prices.

My old Classe DR-6 x DR-9 pair are known entities to me, heard on lots of speakers over many years. And I've recently added bypass caps and better internal fuses. Their power is moderate and I can use them as monoblocks or in stereo, single or bi-wire to check speaker performance various ways. They function as my humble reference.

The BHKs would provide considerable "tubey" detail and delicacy for comparing the bypass caps, x-checking tonal balance, transient decay, etc. The ear-brain sometimes isolates better with differing signals.

Thiel is often paired with Bryston and I will be shopping for a mid-priced Bryston setup to round out the bipolar landscape. Additionally, I'll be able to cross-check with Rob's Krell FPB-600, MLs, etc. Again, my intent for my working rig is to find amps in the middle price, Thiel-league range which strive for neutrality, but express different strengths than each other. 

General riff for weekend fun:
In speaker design, there is a trap whereby one might think one has a particular problem, but by changing amps, cables, etc. the problem goes away. To the extent the speaker can perform well, the problem actually must exist elsewhere . . . or the speaker is exacerbating some problem in the drive-train. I am looking very closely at those exacerbations, looking for ways to mitigate their deleterious effects without sacrificing any of the clarity or incision inherent in Thiel speakers.

I know this is a very tall order, and I am proceeding cautiously. So far, we have gotten worthwhile results from Mills MRA resistors for short cost increase. Foil feed coils also decrease dynamic distortion. They are quite expensive and will probably be used in an upper level upgrade in conjunction with original Thiel 4-9s wire coils, or to replace more recent Chinese coils. Stay tuned.

Caps are a very big deal. Lots of potential for lots of cost. I believe that the so-called parallel-shunt circuits are practically indistinguishable from series-feed circuits, since the circuit is AC and the driver is fed alternatively from each pole. The big electrolytic banks in the shunts are very expensive to replace, but I want these upgrades to result in "permanent" solutions, which electrolytics are definitionally not.

brayeagle - Yes, the Bryston amps have been part of Thiel's history since early-on. We had 4Bs in the day. I hope to find the right model at the right price.

I need to comment that the 3.5 are so easily included with all the other models in the 2 and 3 series even though the design and specs are considerably different. The min. Impedance of the 3.5 is 5 ohm, not the 2 or 3 ohm range. All the need for high current is only relevant when the loudness increases above 100 dB near field. As I rarely listen at levels above 75 dB, I can power my 3.5 in a medium room of 14 by 16 with a 4 watt amplifier with deep extended bass.

brayeagle

very nice system. Bryston and Thiel have excellent synergy together.
All musical genres sound excellent to outstanding. I have heard the 4B-SST2 on several occasions, in different systems. No slouch at all.

Happy Listening!

tomthiel

Staying tuned my Friend. Looking forward to your power amp discovery.
It is a fun journey.  Happy Listening!

thielrules

Good to see you.  The 3.5 model is very popular here. Thank You for sharing your point of view.  Happy Listening!

rules - I love the 3.5. My decision to not include it in my upgrade program is based on lack of availability of drivers or a solution for modernizing the equalizer and the inherent bass-response limit for "modern" recordings. 

The product history and back-story is beyond the scope of this post. But the 2.2 in 1990 tested the adequacy of the passive radiator to extend bass response (depth and quantity.) The 2.2 succeeded and Thiel took that path. 

Just wanted to make the point that the 3.5 is much easier to drive then all the other thiel speakers if not too loud.

thielrules

That's correct; however, I could crank up the volume on the 3.5s without distortion. 

I've found my 3.7s to be power hungry but not so power hungry that I thought I needed a huge, super-expensive amplifier.  I have a pair of Cambridge 840s that I think drive the 3.7 great.  You can get a pair of the current model 851w for 3-4k.  These are, if anything, bordering on too punchy.  The transients are very sharp, bass doesn't lack definition at all.  I've been using these for 8-10 years now with no problems so I can't complain about reliability.  I was listening to a mid nineties hard rock album the other day, it was an excessively punchy, in your face recording and it was hard to listen to because of how jarring the bass was.  The Bryston BP26 preamp contributes to this quality as well, it had me thinking about digging my Musical Fidelity tube buffer up to soften up recordings that are like this.

I'd hate for people to think that you need to spend a mountain of money to get a good setup.  My 2 2s are hooked up to a $900 Yamaha home theater receiver and this is, in my opinion, a great little system that I could enjoy immensely.  That is, if it weren't hooked up to the TV and used mostly for kids' shows.  It just finished cranking out the Moana soundtrack and the bass was not lacking.  I'm sure a bigger amp would be better but it's still very good the way it is.  

https://www.dagogo.com/cambridge-audio-azur-840e-preamplifier-840w-monoblock-amplifiers-review/4/

jon_5912

agreed- the BP26 is a very fine pre-amp. Interesting combination Bryston and Cambridge.  Happy Listening!

I have found the Parasound A21 does an admirable job for my 2.4’s. I wish someone with my same amp and speakers would speak up. I’d love to hear their thoughts. 

If you guys are looking for a very reasonably priced amp to drive Thiels i would recommend the Sugden SPA-4.Sugden paires really well with Thiel speakers.
https://www.sugdenaudio.com/spa-4-stereo-power-amplifier

last_lemming

over on Audio Asylum, seek out, John Elison. For many years he uses an A21 driving his CS 3.7 loudspeakers. He listens to all formats (CD, downloads and Vinyl).  This gentleman has been an Audiophile for 50 years and counting.  Hope this information is helpful.

Happy Listening!

Good to see you- thieliste.

Happy Listening!

Time for decisions to be made - currently on the secondary market these three ss amps are for sale: BAT VK-500 w/ BAT PAC; Classe CA 301; and Sunfire 300.  All seem capable of driving my CS 2.3s.  Cost of the Sunfire is about half as much as the others.  Reviews of the BAT make it sound like it could be the last amp I will ever need (LOL, right!) and unless I am mistaken these don't come up for sale very often.  I love the sound of tubes, which do you think is my best choice?

Wow, this is a long silence, did I say something wrong?

thosb

Good to see you. I have not had an audition with the B.A.T. nor Classe'
CA301.  Maybe those experts will chime in for you soon.


Happy Listening!

Happy Friday -All.

I also eagerly await first-hand commentary.

The answer is B. A. T. 

I had a 300 Watt model (4ohm load) - very close to the sonics of a Pass Labs only just a smidgen less “bright.”   When I played my 3.6’s louder than usual - which made them show extraordinarily well - the B. A. T.  was up to the task.  More money but worth it. 

oblgny

Good to see you my Brother. I was hoping that you would shed a little B.A.T, light on this subject.  Happy Listening!

Good to see you- tomthiel

Hope you are well and enjoying the soon to be Fall season.

Happy Listening!

All - I just picked up a pair of 3.6s from a lurker on this forum. Come winter I plan to be in full XO mode. PP> 2 2> 2.4> 3.6. Plenty of parts on hand. Slow start, other projects.

@tomthiel looking forward to pressing my Multicap bypasses into service :)

@thosb only on reputation, i would rank them BAT>Classe>>>Sunfire. Good luck

beetlemania
Much Thanks! for chiming in and providing us w/ an update.
Happy Listening!

tomthiel-
Thank You for the update. Keep working your  magic my Audiophile friend.
Happy Listening!

Tech question about the SS2.2.........
 I have the sub with the P05X crossover for my CS3.7’s.  Thinking of buying another SS2/3 sub . Do I need another calibrated crossover for the second sub or is the daisy chain XLR the correct connection.  I know R/L won’t be perfect, but does that chain work.

sandy - I went through this exercise as I acquired a single sub and added another. In order to get true stereo bass information, you need 2 crossovers, since each is receiving signal from its prospective channel and outputting to its respective subwoofer. There are other ways to get summed mono bass with 1 XO which I have not investigated. Stereo bass through the SS2s is quite believable / satisfying.

I’m setting up my 2.4’s with a SS2 and an Integrator. Ill post my impressions once it’s up and running

I’m looking at a pair of  Thiel 1.5‘s vs. a pair of 3.5’s for the same money.. I can pick up the 3.5’s in Houston, which ain’t close, as this is Texas. the smaller guys have to be shipped. 
Room is Trapezoid shaped with speakers at 8’ wall facing a 20’ back wall, 15’ wide, about 12 ‘ to the listening position, room is 20’ long. Have not heard either one, but have owned a number of Thiels.
Which one should I get? Haven’t heard either one. I know the 1.5’s are smaller. I’ve had all the 2’s and the 5 & 6.

Thank You - audiojan
Happy Listening!

michaeljbrown
Good to see you.  There are several 3.5 experts here, hopefully they will chime-in to answer your query.  One or two still may own the 1.5 as well.
Happy Listening!

If you choose the 3.5s, be sure to get the equalizer

If you like deep bass, can be happy with moderate loudness, and don't want to worry about having a high power amp, the 3.5 Will Serve you well. Replacing the thiel equalizer  with a 31 1/3 Oct. With a dbx 1231 or a Rane mx60 is a good option.