@jon_5912
,What amps are you using in bridged mono? I'm thinking of adding another Classe CA-300 and doing the same thing with my 3.7s.
Thiel Owners
Guys-
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
13,807 responses Add your response
I'm using a pair of Cambridge 840s. They're a lot smaller than the CA-300. Their combined power is probably comparable to a single CA-300. I have my doubts about whether a pair of CA-300s would be significantly better than one. That's 1,700 watts/channel into 4 ohms, a lot more than you can get out of the wall. I used to use a pair of Classe CA-200s but they both developed some intermittent crackling that the shop couldn't fix so they've sat unused for about the last 8 years. They are very good and powerful amps but they definitely have a bit of a warm sound. I prefer the sound of the Cambridge amps as I find them a bit more neutral. The build quality isn't as good as it's a Chinese made, more budget conscious brand. They've operated flawlessly for about the last eight years so I can't complain. |
AudioJan "Basically, what would you recommend that is similar to the Thiel, but has more dynamics and a bit less sterile." First I would read the 76 pages of this post , since it is was started by a post about the CS2.4SE , you might find what others think is the perfect amp or you might want to upgrade the crossovers to the SE version . I would suggest trying either a Tube pre-amp or a Tube buffer , Rob |
vair69robert- Thank You for the kind remarks. There is a plethora of information in this thread that is built-by-design to help Thiel owners. Reading all of the various Audio forums on a regular basis, like I do, audiophiles are enjoying both integrated and separate pre/power amps in their respective systems.When I heard one of the first outboard DAC model(s), I remarked, why would anyone want this (circa 1990's)? Fast forward to 2018 and look at all of the DAC manufacturers. The same argument is made of the Integrated Amp from Anthem, Ayre, Bryston, Classe' Creek, Krell, Mark Levinson and Pass Labs, just to name a few. Technology has traveled a long way. Designers and engineers have advanced right along side the trends as well. Happy Listening! |
I have a question on the difference from the CS 2.4 and the CS 2.4 SE model. I have a PX05 that lists the channels as CS3.7 for the front which I have and the surrounds as the CS2.4’s which I have a option to buy for surrounds. Does anybody know if the SE is that different for use of my PX05 crossover. If so I’ll get The S1 Integrator. |
vair68robert60 posts08-26-2018 4:55pmSilvanik I've been meaning to write and welcome a fellow McCormack amp owner and a passive pre-amp user . You had me daydreaming about the DNA-2 , great specs , there was a Deluxe edition for sale on E-bay starting at $2,000 , buy then I saw the weight of the unit ! Ironically the Thiel thread was discussing the weight of equipment and the aging of the owners , daydream over ......... ................. Hi Rob, thank you, I'm very glad that you like my solution. I come from twenty years of use of a loved McCormack DNA-0.5 but four months ago, when finally I found a very good pair of Thiel CS 3.6, I realized that more good power was need to really let this amazing speaker sing, so magically after few weeks of search I found my DNA-2 for sale on a italian specialized website in second hand sale. The owner was asking 4000€......I got it for 2100€, it's in like new condition, even the capacitors that I inspected seem to be in very good shape and the sound performance confirm this. You're right, it's insanely heavy but to me it worth the effort to bring it in your room. I'm used to McCormack sound and this to me is not off of Steve signature, that speaking of this level of power is a very big compliment. My system is very basic, SONY HAP Z1-ES (wonderful media player) , handmade passive pre based on TKD2511 pot (due to I currently use only one source want keep the signal pat the shorter as possible, anyway own even a very good McCormack TLC-1), McCormack DNA-2 amp, Audioquest Lapis interconnect and Thiel CS 3.6. What to say, I'm very pleased with this system, dynamic, clear sound with a believable wide and deep soudstage. Hope all can last for long time....... |
I'm going to try to find a Thiel subwoofer, but here's the question... is it worth it to spend a bit more money and get two SS-1? Commonly I've found that stereo subs work much better for music, but Thiel is always different, so I figured I ask. The room is not that large so I don't think I need two subs for that reason, but I also want to make sure that if I do it, I do it right. |
Jan - I hope I am not dominating this forum, but I enjoy sharing what I've learned. I have compared single and stereo SS1 and SS2 subwoofers in my studio with PowerPoint 1.2s as room mastering monitors. The stereo pair presents a decidedly more believable image. Note that the PPs cross over at 80Hz, which includes more upper information than many applications. John Schwenker - I am intrigued by your second-order experience. Soon I will have my Metric Halo ADA rig back up and will devise a second order XO at 80Hz for low and high pass. It has a high probability of better transient performance than the PXO solution of 4th order high and low. I will be able to measure the net output to ascertain that the subwoofer can produce that 12dB roll out. The PPs produce a textbook 12dB roll out. BTW: second order slopes share some prestigeous company. |
Hi tomthiel, Yes, quite a few well regarded speakers over the years/decades have used/still use second order crossovers to the woofer. Given the nominal 180 degree phase delay, the most satisfactory results are generally gotten by inverting the relative phase of the wires to the woofer. This works well for some frequencies away from the fc but not so good for time alignment in the vicinity of fc. Here (with time shifts available) I’ve stood that on its head a bit by not inverting and delaying to seek best phase blending at fc. I may be telling you a bit more than I know for sure, partly as discussion stimulation. (smile) It has been a few years since I looked more carefully at it. I just reviewed some old modeling spreadsheet work where I was showing myself that if I differently pro-rated or scaled the importance of the time alignment at frequencies stepping away from fc in half octave jumps, some of those schemes would start to suggest I might be better off with something headed toward an additional 35 degrees or so of phase shift. I thought that result was pretty small for how highly speculative I was being… and decided not to pursue it even as a listening experiment. The overview message is still that, if one is willing to go there, DSP devices give us some greater freedoms to customize that integration than we’ve had in the world of analog crossovers. Yours, John |
I currently have two Classe Audio DR-8 amps running in mono mode. They have 280 watts into 8ohms and 560 watts into 4 ohms. In addition, they are high current amps. Currently have a pair of Thiel CS2 speakers, but I am adding a pair of Thiel CS 3.6 speakers I just purchased. Will my DR-8 amps have enough power to properly power the Thiel 3.6 speakers? On occasion I do like to play the music load so I want to make sure I have enough power. |
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I bought Thiel 22 about 3 years ago for a 1000 dollars. the pith was damaged in shipping so i sent them to Thiel to be repaired n/c by seller. they came back in mint condition. My front end is Levinson 39 CD player, 380S pre, 332 amp. Cabling is tricky, right now my best sound is with Audioquest Clear speaker cable, CZ gel pre to amp, Signal cable CD player to preamp. I bought Cardas Golden Cross hoping for audio nervana , but its not for my system. I have to sell them one day. I also owned Audioquest Sterling, which i tried with the Thiels and B&W 801 but they never sounded right. I sold them to someone using tubes and they said they were excellent in there system. Recently i have added a Mirage small sub ,,a sealed box 2 6inch drivers opposed, I like them with the sub as my previous speakers were B&W 801 S3 which were nice speakers but leaned a bit too much in the studio sound direction, B&W always had some high end glare , they seemed to lack rhythm and pace also, and when i compared, because I owned both speakers at the same time, the Thiel outperformed the B&W. |
Welcome! ontario1 Very nice Thiel/Mark Levinson system you own. Agreed, cabling is tricky and requires trial-and-error for best outcome. Audioquest is a sonic match for Thiel loudspeakers. Interesting that you are using Signal Cable. Good to read that brand is a sonic match as well. I look forward in reading more about your Audio journey. Happy Listening! |
Hello Forum Members. I’m new to this forum but have had the “audio-bug” for most of my life. I’m very impressed with the experience and knowledge of the folks posting to this forum. My system is mostly composed of Naim electronics and Thiel CS 3.6 speakers. I’ve found the #NaimNAP300 amp a very good match for these speakers. I recently got the DR upgrade for my Naim amp however, and there’s now an upper midrange harshness that wasn’t there previously. Maybe it just needs time to burn-in. I’ve just added my system info to Audiogon’s Virtual systems postings and I’d appreciate any feedback. Thanks. Rosami |
Good Sunday to everyone, maybe some of you have the schematics of Thiel CS 3.6's crossovers? I want to check and eventually to upgrade the capacitors and resistors on my pair, hence my request even if I could pull out the crossovers, take the measurement over each components and compare the results with the specification I should find written over them. In case, suggestion for the brand you would like to use taking into the account mainly the sound quality?.... I know I must be prepared to spend some mony. I have the skill and the tools to do it professionally. Thanks in advance for yours widely appreciate contribute. |
I have a SS2.2 in the center between a pair of 2.7s It's fed via a PX05, as the Integrator was no longer being made. It adds about another perceptible octave to the lower frequencies and to what my grandchildren call the "air" to classical music. A larger one might be better, but I believe an SS1 might not be sufficient to provide the desired LF extension. YMMV |
@tomthiel: Thanks for your replies to my questions back on 8-24. Sorry for this delayed follow-up, life is keeping my busy these days. I’m by no means an expert on analog delay, having only read an article you can find by searching for ‘boss talk: I love analog delay’. The article describes the history and workings of analog guitar delay pedals based on bucket brigade device (BBD) integrated circuits. One currently available example is the Boss DM-2W which can manage adjustable delays up to 800 ms and can be had for a not overly-dear price of $150. However, analog delay pedals are prized for the distortion they add to the delayed signal, even after filtering mostly high-frequency noise, and that might seem to disqualify them for high-end audio applications. But clean filtering might be easier to attain for SBIR compensation because that involves isolating and delaying narrow-band, low-frequency signals –– not wide-band guitar tones. Maybe Jim worked out a design along these lines. Worth repeating: This is unsupported speculation from a true non-expert. |
ish - I would be speculating as well. I have heard that the SSs stay out of the digital domain, therefore accomplishing their requirements in analog, and probably doing it such as you suggest. I can offer no real insight. However, I am still looking to develop a qualified repair station for SmartSubs. I welcome any input from all of you. Silvanik - Rob at Coherent Source Service does have a CS3.6 XO schematic which I developed from layouts. Rob determines how he shares that proprietary information. We are developing upgrades to address issues such as you mention. Electrolytic caps do drift and fail over time, and there are more sophisticated solutions available today, especially capacitors. I have bought a pair of 3.6s to put in queue behind the PP, 2 2 and 2.4 presently under development. We have determined to replace all resistors with Mills MRA-12s at unity value for a stand-alone, cost-effective upgrade. However, further changes to layouts, foil coils and lower ESR caps may require tweaking those resistances at the time of further upgrade. The 3.6 work is scheduled in 2019. |
Guys I need a bit of unbiased advice. That may be a stretch here;) Im considering upgrading my caps to SE spec on my CS2.4's. im sure the SE guys will jump in and say do it but before I do I'd like to hear your thoughts since there is a bit of risk doing this myself and I'm not sure what the benefits will be. First off I've never listened and thought - I need more clarity. I have thought need more mid bass. My understanding is frequency response doesn't change but clarity does. Ive never heard the SE's either. I can can get the parts for $400 bucks, assuming I do the work myself is this upgrade worth it? Mind you I'm no expert with soldering and will need to YouTube how to solder to bring my skills up to speed. I can solder two cables together or to a binding post, but I've never soldered to a board. |
@last_lemming Soundstage/ultra audio and feel the music both reviewed the SE version albeit they did not directly compare to the standard version. The only difference related to SQ was two capacitors in the coax feed. These are Clarity Cap SAs which Rob Gillum has at Coherent Source Service. I think you will find this a worthwhile upgrade. But these have now been surpassed by two generations of Clarity Caps. This is a *really* long thread to slog thru but maybe start January 2018 when Tom Thiel started posting. Mr. Thiel is working on crossover upgrades for legacy Thiels and the CS2.4 is among the first models getting his attention. He is planning Clarity CSAs in the coax feeds, probably with 1% Multicap bypasses. Other caps are also likely to be CSAs including a custom low voltage cap in the shunt positions. Resistors will be Mills MRA 12s. I replaced my OEM resistors with Mills. Here are my comments copied from elsewhere in this thread: “the Mills has a fuller, richer sound although my perception of this varied from song to song. I heard little, if any, difference on solo trumpet but a pronounced difference on the well-recorded 2L Mozart violin concerto. Guitars and voices were more "full-bodied" on folk-rock, blues, and bluegrass. More “tonally-rich” might be another way to describe it. On a Chesky test recording, percussions were more emotionally engaging, toe-tapping. The Mills also seems to have a bit more texture or, at least, it was easier to hear into the microdynamics. I think this is related to my initial impression of a "lower noise floor”.” "I hear more bass impact, a more spacious soundstage, and, especially, an ease of presentation. The MRAs even seem to have mitigated a somewhat “glassy” quality in the midrange." If you are itching to upgrade, get the SAs from CSS and Mills resistors from Sonic Craft. Otherwise, wait a few more months and get the full kit from Tom Thiel/CSS after the upgrade is finalized. |
tomthiel, thank you so much providing such informations, already found a supplier here in Italy selling the Mills MRA12 resistors that I'd couple with Clarity Caps CSA series capacitors (waht do you think about my choice?...even this available in my country), so in short time I'll take out the crossovers to check it and to make all the possible improvements, I'm not in hurry to finalize the job, I want really get the best sound is possible from my CS 3.6, in meanwhile I can continue to enjoy the music from my second system based on a pair of Diapason Adamantes speaker (first series) driven by an old but great class A integrated amp, the Sudgen A21A. I'm already in touch with Rob Gillum at CS because I'm in the process to buy a full set of spare drivers (....just in case!) thus I'll try to get from him the specs of the CS 3.6 XO. Tomthiel, say me how we can stay in touch because I'm seriously interested on your next 3.6 XO improved design, I don't know, have'u a mailing list or some other way that can let us to know when it's the time? Again, many thanks and have a nice day to all fellows here. |
last_lemming Good to see you. Beetlemania and tomthiel are working on the latest and greatest cross-over upgrades that will release later this year. To my ears, I liked the CS 2.4SE by a very slight margin over the stock CS 2.4 loudspeaker. Several differences both internally and externally (cosmetic) exist on the 2.4SE. There are (2) caps on the co-ax feed vis Clarity Cap SAs. SQ is a little more sublime and sweeter on the 2.4SE. I could have lived very easily w the stock CS 2.4 model (it is that good). Keep me posted. Happy Listening! |