Thanks again for the thoughts on my Ayre AX-5-20 with 3.6’s. The lure of 3.6’s is strong in me.
And a very Merry Christmas and excellent new year to you all!
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@duramax747 , I agree, the proportions are nonpareil. |
@duramax747 , It would seem that you’re in a unique position to have the resources to get this right. I do hope you can post photos when completed. |
unsound,
I completely agree with that statement. I'm in the professional motorsports business so I was speaking from my experience. This industry has more than a few highly skilled craftsmen up to the task. You also validated my point with pair of 3.7 for sale. Who and what method to paint the cabinets were used as Thiel had/has very high standards. Preparing the cabinets takes the most time to achieve the best paint finish. Most fall short here. I'm leaning towards a Bentley Snowy Quatrz for my CS6. However, that Bentayga Bronze is calling me also. |
On the black CS 3.7 I didn't see in ad disclosure the paint was not original nor they were painted by the seller. If that is true then I would ask for paperwork of what company who did the work and what process was followed to finish the CS 3.7.
I'm going to restore some CS6. The process will be documented with paint/clear coat used. If done correctly a pair would cost between $1500-$2000 depending on material chosen and labor. If you were painting multiple sets of speaker the price would drop significantly. A few quarts of high quality automotive paint will cost $250-$400. Add all the other necessary materials and you will be at $750-$900 very quickly. Preparing cabinets and sanding will cost $300-$400 then you have the painting. My point is if the painting process is done professionally with high quality paint this would increase the value. If done by some obscured person with no paper trail then I would proceed with caution. In this example if the CS 3.7 are purchased for the asking 4K then I would have them professionally restored around the $1500-$1700 price point which would put you in the $5500-$5700 price point. Well below the market average and for a mark free cabinet to enjoy and if you sell you have all the paperwork.
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In my (limited) experience switching between low power class A, 100 watt tubes, high power class d and now higher power class a/b with my Thiel 2.4, power requirements seem to depend a bit on what you want to get out of the Thiels. I found the sound pleasant with all levels of power and definitely preferred the tube sound for things like solo acoustic guitar or small ensemble jazz, and maybe also with minimal house and ambient. However, with both the high power class d and the high power class a/b, the speakers seemed more capable of sorting through things like complex orchestral music. With lower powered amps, it was noticeably harder to distinguish between individual instruments with that kind of music. Now if I wouldn’t listen to orchestral music often, I might have stuck with the tube amp as this made the speakers more forgiving of bad recordings, and I really enjoyed the warmer sound for pop/folk. These speakers really take on the sonic character of whatever you attach to them in terms of sources and amplification I feel. I guess budget would be a confounding variable in this little theory though: perhaps a top-of-the-line lower powered amp will produce better results than a not so well made higher powered amp, as the former will probably be able to handle complex music better regardless of power rating. 77jovian, if I were in your position I would go for the speakers, and then see if you feel Iike you are missing something with your current amp. Chances are you might not, depending on sonic preferences and music tastes. |
I often bring earplugs to shows that I think will be loud. Makes my ears actually hurt and my great preference is to relax into the beauty and flow of music. Musical communication, for me, doesn’t happen at high volume. I find there is a sweet spot of volume wherein I’m fully immersed in the music.
@jafant By “stock”, do you mean the original version? There are reports of people swapping fuses but I’m otherwise unaware of non-stock Ayre gear.
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@jafant, Honestly I use the Adcom ACE’s mostly to offer more outlets. Years ago when I lived in a NYC apartment I used an earlier though highly regarded older Adcom ACE version for the same reason. At that time I thought it might have helped with video noise. Those older models only accommodated two prong plugs. The newer models can accommodate three prongs. The more recent models use a different “ils” ( if lightening strikes ) circuitry which claims to offer more protection. Where I currently live we have overhead power lines unlike the underground one in NYC. Theses overhead power lines are subject to more frequent brown and blackouts. So far (22 years) with these Adcom ACE’s in place, none of my gear has had any ill effects from them. I’m not sure if the Adcom ACE’s are helping with that, but as I already need the extra outlets, I don’t want to tempt fate without them. I’m not sure that any of these kind of products really clean up the power in any meaningful way. |
@jafant, Actually the CS 3.5’s even with the up to 12 dB draw from the eq, thanks to its 4 Ohm nominal / 4 Ohm minimum load (actual 5 Ohm measured) in smaller rooms with less volume demands can get by with as little as 100 Watts into 4 Ohms. That’s a standard 50 Watt rated amp truly capable of doubling down to the load at hand. Though I generally suggest as a rule of thumb / general guideline that most users double a speaker manufacturer’s minimum suggested power. It’s the lower impedance’s that reduce the efficiency of some of the other Thiels. 400 Watts into 2 Ohms is like 100 Watts into 8 Ohms. I don’t think many would think 100 Watts is excessive.
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beetlemania Good to see you again. I hope that you are well and had a prosperous 2023. While I cannot attest to stock AYRE components, I can and will attest to the Twenty Series being up to the task of driving Thiel loudspeakers. This fact has been confirmed by many Audiophiles. Is AYRE a Krell or Levinson? No. Can this brand hold its own? Yes. Equally impressive that you matched an AYRE AX-7 with CS 1.6 speakers. Stepping up to an Ax-5 (20) with CS 2.4 is a sweet upgrade all-around. Reading back from the beginning, my 1st CS 2.4 demo featured a Creek integrated in the 60-80w neighborhood. That Amp rocked, without the slightest hint of clipping.! Older Krell and Mark Levinson (particularly the 383 integrated) are sonic matches indeed. Those amps can provide >100 dB peaks for Classical music buffs. Great discussion. Season's Greetings and Happy Listening! |
Beetlemania is not incorrect. How ever 105 dB peaks (and quite a bit louder as well) are not all that uncommon during live performances (and I think that’s what we’re trying to replicate here). MS tone burst measurements at low impedances might suggest adequacy for speakers that briefly dip into such impedances, but the speakers under consideration here spend the vast majority of their time below 4 Ohms. I think RMS measurements are a better consideration for the applications at hand. The amplifiers I usually suggest are the same or have the same parameters as Jim Thiel would use (including Jim’s minimum recommendations). |
It’s super useful to know that unsound demands peaks of around 105 dB (think table saw volume). If you want to play many Thiel models that loudly, yes, you do need a moonrocket amp. You can also get there by using something like JBLs rather than Thiel.
My Ayre AX-5 Twenty, paired with my particular digital source, will begin to clip at an indicated 40 on the volume with typical digital files. My speakers are CS2.4, heavily modified under the guidance of Tom Thiel. I don’t have a good SPL meter but estimate the volume at clipping would be 95-97 dB. I mostly listen at an indicated 20-24, maybe low 30s if I have the house to myself and want to play loudly (peaks probably around 90).
If you have several days to read through this thread you will see many reports of happy Thiel owners using all kinds of amps that unsound would consider unfit. Off the top of my head, a couple of CS2.4 owners report great results with ARC tube amps. Wes Phillips glowing review of the CS2.4 included use with multiple amps, some of them quite low-powered and probably none of them meeting unsound’s criteria. When I first heard a pair of CS2.4 they were driven by an Ayre AX-7 (60 W into 8 Ohms). Sounded excellent to me. And I drove a pair of CS1.6 with an Ayre AX-7 for many years, never detected clipping.
The need for a super high-powered amp will depend on many factors including personal listening preference and room size. But the measurements should only be a guide. You will never, ever know what a combo sounds like until you actually listen to it.
Here are the measurements for the AX-5 Twenty. Looking at these, I would not be afraid to mate an AX-5 even to a pair of CS-5s. Obviously, that amp will not get anywhere near 105 dB but I suspect it would sound excellent within its volume limitations.
https://www.hifinews.com/content/ayre-ax-5-twenty-integrated-amplifier-lab-report |
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@77jovian, Much of the recent amp discusion here has previously been disucssed here. Suffice to say that I doubt that the Ayre AX-5 twenty is up to driving the CS 3.6's or 2.7's to their potential. The steady impedance levels of these speakers are beyond the specs of this amplfier. Your old Krell KSA 200 would seem to be a much better match. |
I still daydream about my Thiel 3.6's, which I sold some years ago, and sometimes I think I should get another pair. But, when I had my 3.6's, I powered them with a Krell KSA 200, and the sound was glorious. Nowadays, though, my amplification is an Ayre AX 5-20. I would appreciate anyone's comments on how the Ayre would pair with 3.6's, in case I get the opportunity to move back to Thiels. |
Jafant
Thanks for the welcoming reply. Actually, the NAD is my first “step up” in gear. Aside from that my collection is pretty much all vintage every day components. I have several receivers like a Sansui 8080, Kenwood KR7400 and Sherwood SEL200 to name a few. Turntables include an AR XA, Concept 2QD, Technics SL 1500 and few more. I have several pairs of speakers like Bozak B313’s, KEF Reference 103.2, ADS L810, Dynaco A25 and stacked OLA’s. All these get rotated into various systems in the house. My “main” which gets most use would currently be the Sansui, Concept and ADS combo in my office. I have been looking to, again, step things up and came upon the Thiel 1.6’s for a good price. Then I started looking for an amp that was good and with sufficient power for the Thiels and found the NAD C375BEE. So here I am. My budget is somewhat limited so I am doing the best I can with the money I have to spend on “stuff like this” along with what is available in the local market…..pretty happy so far….😎. Currently the Thiels/NAD are in the garage as I needed to test everything to be sure it all worked/sounded as it should. Next for them is the family room….. |
@roxy54 A powerhouse lol |
Hi guys, a friend mine asked me if i wanted to demo his monster Pilium Leonidas integrated on my 3.7s. This is the typical integrated that loves difficult load speakers and can easily drive 2ohms. Its is also very smooth like Pass Labs so will keep you guys posted when we can do this Pilium demo at my place, should be fun. |
Greetings everyone and happy holidays. I wanted to weigh in with some comments about my new amp and preamp. I recently sold my PS Audio BHK mono blocks and got a Coda 16 amp. The sonic differences were subtle and someone else may prefer the PS amps, but i did like the Coda a bit better. The main reason for the change was I was no longer interested in messing with tubes. However the big sonic improvement was when i moved from a Pass XP22 to the Coda 07X preamp. The Coda pre really seems to bring out the best in my Thiel 3.7’s. It is a much more musical unit and I think a much better sonic match to the speakers. The Pass would very likely be better with speakers that are softer and more rounded on the top. |
@theaudiotweak, Perhaps I was being too generous / forgiving of the Adcom’s as I do seem to remember reports of those 565 mono’s failing and sometimes tsking out speakers in the process, |
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I had a pair of the Adcom 565s and they were terrible sounding and lacked dynamic scale and punch. Up and left my crib soon after..Saw several pairs of Thiels unwound by the use or misuse of Adcom amps. Sonically not much of an improvement over Denon receivers they could play louder but sounded similar. TomD |
Re: the Adcoms; While there may have been been better vintages, I'm not sure there were really "bad" ones, as these were really built to a price point. Though it must be said that the original 565 monos were know to be failure prone due to a reputed design flaw. An after market board was made avialble as a fix. Nelson Pass tended to shy away from protection circuitry as he thought such things compromised sound quality. With higher end, overbuilt products like the Thresholds for example that only used 20% of their output devices capabilities, such practices probably made more sense than with targeted price point products like the Adcoms. It should be noted that the Adcom 555 could not ideally double down to 4 Ohms, and when tested blew fuses when pushed hard into 2 Ohms. The 555 is probably better suited for some ot the older >4 Ohm load Thiels. Adcom GFA-555 power amplifier 1989 Measurements | Stereophile.com
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