@tomthiel , I do this with some apprehension, but as you say "Since this is all water long under the bridge,..." When Thiel Audio was still in business, but suspicions of Jim’s health concerns were begining to be rumoured, a reliable source (who out of respect will remain anonymous) at Thiel swore me to secrecy to share that Jim was indeed considering an all-out Thiel with a price point much beyond Thiel’s previous offerings that would feature an omni-directional design.
Thiel Owners
Guys-
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
13,745 responses Add your response
Tom, I think I’ve mentioned it before, especially since you were originally doing the cabinets for Thiel speakers: the CS6 Speakers that I had in my home for a little while back around 2001 or 2002, Where in I think the Amberwood finish. They remain one of the most beautiful and refined looking speaker finishes I’ve seen. The craftsmanship and fit and finish really put a shame Most other loud speakers of the time. IMO.
|
Prof - I know very little about this topic, only what was 'leaked' by an insider and not denied by another. But, as I said, the approach harkens back to the very beginning, before we settled on dynamic drivers in an enclosure; and it attends to our shared first-principles of point-source, freely radiating energy without close range diffractive interference. And as I recall (from about 1974) our reasons for rejection were based less on technical appeal than on costs to market such a radical approach . . . Sidebar: At our first 1977 CES, we twenty-somethings showed our model 01 and 02 and a static 03 prototype, and offered an unheard-of 10 year warranty - all to much interest. I remember being teased by an industry somebody that being from Kentucky, weren't we supposed to be barefoot and pregnant and sipping moonshine . . . ? Cognitive dissonance. Imagine if we had showed up with seriously radical products beyond our active equalizer. Since this is all water long under the bridge, I invite anyone to comment that might know more than I about this mythical omnidirectional project. |
Thiel Non-Model History – products that never were - Prof – thank you for this question. Indeed we’ve covered a lot of Thiel history here over the years, but little about developments and decisions behind the curtain. This story would fill a memoir, which sadly, has not written itself. So, I’ll shine some light, while limiting the scope and depth for manageability. There’s always more. Context - Perhaps somewhat oddly, I’ll start at the end. I was informed by an insider that at the end Jim was working on an omnidirectional full-range driver. Such an omnidirectional driver would fit nicely into our global orientation of the speaker as mirror-image of the microphone and belief which we shared, that the omnidirectional mic captures sound most similarly to the ear, and far more faithfully than any directional counterpart. Although directionality in mics and speakers is a sad necessity in stage and professional arenas, the requirements can be more well managed in dedicated playback situations with less sonic degradation and higher retention of sonic information via room treatment and tuning while retaining inherently superior omnidirectionality. I can’t speak directly to that late idea-in-development. But I can recount early non-products based on first-hand knowledge of my brother and my twenty year lived history with Thiel Audio. What follows is a summary sketch of some of the experimental non-products during the early years of Thiel Audio. Let’s venture back to 1974 at my Georgewown Road homestead. As a rung on our ladder to self-sufficiency, my Conceptions Design Studio had taken on Walter Kling as co-designer-craftsman, and secured early success in the high artisan-crafts marketplace. Our informal community sought a venture that would utilize and engage all the willing members beyond Walter and myself, in an enterprise with enough breadth, depth and horizons to support us for our forseeable future. This was the 1970s when autonomy and self-employment were hallmarks of the emergent counter-culture. We decided to fund Jim for a year to investigate whether his electronics knowledge could be responsibly applied to this task of right livelihood for a group of friends seeking meaningful co-employment. Sidebar: At this time there were no computers outside large institutions, no internet, and only nascent knowledge of how loudspeakers really worked. The Thiele/Small Parameters were barely a decade old and not widely in use. Jim was inclined toward electronics with a first-interest in circuit innovation. More sophisticated amplification is where we first explored. Loudspeakers were seen as necessary tools to prove and improve amplifier advancements. Our survey of available loudspeakers revealed competing limitations and trade-offs, and no particular solution for accurate, revealing laboratory monitors. Non-Product History - In that first exploratory year we discussed, explored and studied what was needed for a really accurate and transparent research transducer. What floated to the top was a spherical globe around 1.5 feet diameter, fully covered with small (1/2” diameter) full-range dynamic drivers. More extended bass response could be achieved via greater sphere size and driver count, and/or by crossing over to a powered sub-woofer or folded horn. We built both a powered subwoofer as well as a 6’x 6’ folded horn to Jim’s specifications. The long story can be summarized to our realization that we were in over our heads with far more questions and considerations than our resources and scope would accommodate. Lets count the most significant trials to date: Non-product 1: Spherical multi-driver hung from a wire Non-product 2: Powered subwoofer Non-product 3: Folded horn subwoofer All were built, tested, evaluated and set aside as exhibits for the Future Non-Museum. Next stage was a distillation of contending technologies. It was clear that powering individual drivers with individual amps held extreme promise. Each amp could be tailored to the particular demands of each driver, and low-level, active crossover circuitry before the amp could produce better results at lower overall costs. The prototype that emerged was a tri-amplified three way, small format speaker with active crossovers including bass boost. Sidebar: Note that Meridian had not yet come to market and to our knowledge there were no such products in the world. We determined that despite our collective enthusiasm for the concept, we as a self-funded fledgling enterprise could not support market penetration of such a product. To reduce further temptation, we burned the prototype on the pasture pyre. Non-product 4: Self-powered speaker Further distillation led us to what became the model 01, a 10”x 1.5” actively equalized, high sensitivity, full range speaker covering 25Hz to 18kHz. That product was fully developed along with its manufacturing engineering and feasibility studies. We began selling that product to local markets in 1975 with encouraging results. By this time, our founding team included Jim, myself, my wife Kathy, Walter Kling and Fred Collopy with talents in business design-development, and emerging personal computing. I considered that team of 5 as essential for critical skills to take the plunge of full-time commitment to this business undertaking. By request from users, Jim next developed the conventional 6.5”x 1” ported bookshelf model 02 to higher popularity than the model 01. Our third market product was to be the model 03 a floor-standing 10” 3-way. Through its development we discovered that time-phase coherence was an important missing ingredient normally traded-off as not important enough for its trouble. We sidelined the conventional model 03. Non-product 5: Conventional tower 3-way floorstanding model 03 We struggled for the next year and a half before deciding to accept the impossible challenge of producing a coherent speaker. The actualized model 03 with its sloped baffle time-aligning all the drivers, and first-order slopes maintaining phase alignment and impulse integrity was introduced in late 1978. It utilized the active bass equalization of the model 01 which persisted through the 03 conventional, 03 coherent, 03a, CS3 and CS3.5 (the fifth generation model 3, including the seminal non-coherent original version.) The founding team survived only a few years, and the loss of Walter and Fred were nearly catastrophic to the business. I consider that upheaval as a fundamental loss. Non-product 6: The fully functioning involvement of all 5 founders As we gathered experience we learned to evaluate and accept/reject potential products in the hypothetical phase with minimal commitment and expense. That’s the highlights; let’s stop here for today.
|
I’m sure you have already mentioned this somewhere in this ginormous thread. But could you give some insights As to “the Thiel products that never came to be?” I’m thinking about what Jim might have had in his plans before he passed away. Or perhaps some different ideas Jim thought about or investigated for speaker designs that never saw the light of day.
cheers
|
@unsound Thanks for the input, glad to know the 1.2's aren't quite so demanding. @jafant My system is a frankenmonster cobbled together from shitty components that have been gifted to me. However, it plays music and I reallllllly like music. Been on a Japanese jazz fusion kick lately, listening to a lot of Casiopea and Masayoshi Takanaka (not really jazz). Jam bands, jazz, funk, and early 2000's rap are my typical listening habits. Mendelssohn or Bach when I'm feeling snooty and/or studying |
@spacebird42 , The CS 1.2’s with their moderate sensitivity and perhaps more importantly above 4 Ohm impedance they are amongst the easier Thiels to power. They can not go very low in bass , play very loud l, aren’t meant for large rooms. So used as intended they aren’t that power hungry. Due to their lack of low bass they can sound a bit tipped up. Avoid amplification that’s on the bright side, has mid-range suck out or is loose in bass. If you can find an old ss conrad-Johnson MF-80 that has been recently re-capped; I think you will be very happy. BTW, used alpha-core MI 2 speaker cables are a relatively inexpensive choice that will work beautifully in such a system.
|
Hi all, I've just picked up a pair of Thiel CS 1.2's. Totally new to Thiel, but have stumbled across this forum after some digging. I've seen discussed here the power-hungry nature of the speakers. My question is, is there a budget friendly way to drive them adequately? I'm in grad school and discretionary spending is gonna be low for the next few years. Any advice would be appreciated |
@tomthiel - Very exciting news! Have a pair of CS3’s in need of tweeters and midranges. Look forward to applying your replacements and other improvements you have been working on! Like many others on this forum big fan of Thiel’s and own many pairs and want more :). Thank you for sharing all of your knowledge to us all here! |
Massimo - The early 3.5 tweeter feed used a 6.5uF feed cap. It was tweaked in 1987 to 8uF, which is what you want. Only buy now if you need it. I will have a much better replacement soon. The 3.5 mid and tweeter are front-burner projects. We are incorporating late-stage design elements into the 3.6 midrange platform - dual cone, advanced motor, to fit the CS3, 3.5 and 3.6. The 3.5 tweeter is obsolete and our replacement will also incorporate late-stage advancements to fit the CS2, 2.2, 3, 3.5, 3.6 and 5. Completion of midranges and tweeters is necessary to re-work the crossovers between them. For now, get your advice from Coherent Source Service. The ScanSpeak 10F8424 is not robust enough; it will burn out. SS’s recommendation for drop-in is 12W/8524G00. CSS may have that driver or another of their choice. Tom
|
Hello to everybody, is the first time I'm writing here. First of all thanks for this great thread and for all the valuable informations that cannot be found everywhere else. I live in Italy, I'm the happy owner of a CS3.5 system with Electrocompaniet amplification, and I have few questions. Few years ago I noticed some heavy distorsions from one speaker. I opened it and found a blown 1uF capacitor. I replaced it on both speakers and everything was back to normal. But looking on the net I found a discussion from somebody with the same problem who also published a picture of his crossover, and discovered that where he's got a 8uF cap I got a 6,2uF. So I' m wondering if my crossover is complaying to the original spec or it has been modified. Moreover I would like to ask to Mr Thiel, if on his projects, he is thinking of a replacement for the midrange speaker. Mine are ok at the moment but one has been repaired at the cone tinsel lead, and if in case of need could I use the scanspeak 10F8424 as is suggested somewhere on the net ? By the way, somebody here has done it and is happy with that ? Thanks everybody and excuse me if any mistake, Massimo |
My Thiels dominate my 11 x 13 basement room but the sound is glorious. Most of my gear is 40 years old: Oracle TT, Monster Alpha 1 ctg, PS IV preamp. I upsized my VSP Labs amp (150wpc) for an Adcom 5800 (250wpc) that pushes these speakers to satisfying volume. I’ve recently added a Wiim streamer and last week got a Fosi Box 5 to play with to see if it’s better than the PS phono stage. I’m moving in a few months to a house with a BIG space for these BIG speakers.
|
Peak current measurements should be in the range of 150 amps not 18 to 30? Am I correct in assuming this spec alone conclusively makes class-D amps inappropriate for use with the speakers in question? I am somewhat shocked at the response I had from manufacturers when presented with this very question. I was asking the question looking for a response as to how well received/pleasing is the result of the pairing...sounds like no one does it because it is a bad match. Is there a list of amps people feel meet electrical and real world listening criteria - favorite pairings? |
agdrago A capable amp's power specs should read something like: - 100W @ 8 ohms, 0.1% distortion or less 20Hz - 20kHz, both channels driven - 200W @ 4 ohms, 0.1% distortion or less 20Hz - 20kHz, both channels driven - 400W @ 2 ohms, 0.1% distortion or less 20Hz - 20kHz, both channels driven - Stable at 1 ohm Amps whose specs diverge much from the above template may sound just fine, or even fantastic, paired with high-efficiency speakers. But amps that will convincingly, authoritatively drive large, low-efficiency floorstanders with unforgiving impedance curves ought to be able to deliver 150A current peaks, not 15A.
|
beetlemania -Biwire is a special case. There are theoretical and empirical advantages. I've gotten good results with internally-biwired cable (in the same jacket). Problems arise with separate runs that the speaker designer can't control. An individual can evaluate including their own preferences. Also, there are upsides to single-wiring including avaialbility of all the conductive cross-section for big transients. Etc. etc. etc. Wire is a maze as well as amazing. Tom
|
@tomthiel Reading your post reminded me that I *did* compare with and without biwiring (via that Cardas jumper plate I later sent you). I preferred the sound of the biwire configuration but, yes, it was the binding posts and/or Cardas hookup wire that made the biggest sonic difference. |
Just in case anyone is interested, updated my Virtual System in Audiogon to reflect the changes that I have made over the last few years. These include some significant upgrades to my digital signal chain. https://www.audiogon.com/systems/11920
|
I have had my used BAT VK-250 for about a month on the 2.4’s. It is such a nice amp for those speakers. So cost effective to,1800.00 with a factory check up. If that helps anyone looking for a nice combination to explore on a friendly budget. I wanted to ask if anyone has the diagram for the crossovers of their 2.4’s ? Rob sent one to me at one time after I had sent him my bass driver to check out. That was over 2 yrs ago and I can’t find it. I want to at least replace resistors on the xovers now and I just wanted to see the values and locations. And if someone has a recommendation for resistors I would appreciate that also. And then I think to myself while am on that, maybe caps also. But I remember one cap not being able to find the same value in a after market cap. I will have to work on finding that I would guess. Thank you for any help you could provide. |
beetlemania- I’m brewing the tea we started those several years ago. It’s getting richer and stronger. Among the many lessons learned were real developments in wire and cable. You and I both like Cardas; very well conceived and executed designs. But with considerable complexity and cost. I learned from senior wire designers that to work optimally, the design must be worthy, plus everything must be executed to perfection, and the connectors to even higher perfection. I suspect that a big part of what you like in your Cardas conversion is the PBP posts. Any of you who have those big-lug Thiel binding posts like on the CS2.4 can run an experiment. Put locking bananas on your cables. Try the inexpensive WBT / angled, stackables from Parts Express. Remove the knurled post nuts. Plug the bananas into the banana jacks. Listen and report back. Ruminate on that and consider the GR-Research Electra Tube Connectors. Small progress every day. Tom |
@thieliste I replaced the OEM hookup wire in my CS2.4 SE with Cardas. In the same step, I replaced the OEM binding posts with Cardas PBP and made it biwireable (ie, runs of speaker cables from the amp to binding posts connected to each of the coax and woofer boards). So, I cannot ascribe the overall effect to any of those three changes. But I will say that I had a BIG smile on my face when I hit play on Roon :)
Really curious to learn more about what Tom Thiel has brewing . . . |
gmosley - Room placement is an art of its own. This forum can guide you to literature / information on that subject. Thiel products are wide-dispersion transducers, so try to keep them away from side walls or treat the walls more so than with many other speakers. Thiel’s grilles are multi-purpose. In addition to the aesthetics, they also fill the edges of the baffle to reduce diffraction. Better if you use them. The EQ extends bass to about 25Hz - worth the extra pair of interconnects. |
