Thiel Owners
I’m sure you have already mentioned this somewhere in this ginormous thread. But could you give some insights As to “the Thiel products that never came to be?” I’m thinking about what Jim might have had in his plans before he passed away. Or perhaps some different ideas Jim thought about or investigated for speaker designs that never saw the light of day.
cheers
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@unsound Thanks for the input, glad to know the 1.2's aren't quite so demanding. @jafant My system is a frankenmonster cobbled together from shitty components that have been gifted to me. However, it plays music and I reallllllly like music. Been on a Japanese jazz fusion kick lately, listening to a lot of Casiopea and Masayoshi Takanaka (not really jazz). Jam bands, jazz, funk, and early 2000's rap are my typical listening habits. Mendelssohn or Bach when I'm feeling snooty and/or studying |
@spacebird42 , The CS 1.2’s with their moderate sensitivity and perhaps more importantly above 4 Ohm impedance they are amongst the easier Thiels to power. They can not go very low in bass , play very loud l, aren’t meant for large rooms. So used as intended they aren’t that power hungry. Due to their lack of low bass they can sound a bit tipped up. Avoid amplification that’s on the bright side, has mid-range suck out or is loose in bass. If you can find an old ss conrad-Johnson MF-80 that has been recently re-capped; I think you will be very happy. BTW, used alpha-core MI 2 speaker cables are a relatively inexpensive choice that will work beautifully in such a system.
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Hi all, I've just picked up a pair of Thiel CS 1.2's. Totally new to Thiel, but have stumbled across this forum after some digging. I've seen discussed here the power-hungry nature of the speakers. My question is, is there a budget friendly way to drive them adequately? I'm in grad school and discretionary spending is gonna be low for the next few years. Any advice would be appreciated |
@tomthiel - Very exciting news! Have a pair of CS3’s in need of tweeters and midranges. Look forward to applying your replacements and other improvements you have been working on! Like many others on this forum big fan of Thiel’s and own many pairs and want more :). Thank you for sharing all of your knowledge to us all here! |
Massimo - The early 3.5 tweeter feed used a 6.5uF feed cap. It was tweaked in 1987 to 8uF, which is what you want. Only buy now if you need it. I will have a much better replacement soon. The 3.5 mid and tweeter are front-burner projects. We are incorporating late-stage design elements into the 3.6 midrange platform - dual cone, advanced motor, to fit the CS3, 3.5 and 3.6. The 3.5 tweeter is obsolete and our replacement will also incorporate late-stage advancements to fit the CS2, 2.2, 3, 3.5, 3.6 and 5. Completion of midranges and tweeters is necessary to re-work the crossovers between them. For now, get your advice from Coherent Source Service. The ScanSpeak 10F8424 is not robust enough; it will burn out. SS’s recommendation for drop-in is 12W/8524G00. CSS may have that driver or another of their choice. Tom
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Hello to everybody, is the first time I'm writing here. First of all thanks for this great thread and for all the valuable informations that cannot be found everywhere else. I live in Italy, I'm the happy owner of a CS3.5 system with Electrocompaniet amplification, and I have few questions. Few years ago I noticed some heavy distorsions from one speaker. I opened it and found a blown 1uF capacitor. I replaced it on both speakers and everything was back to normal. But looking on the net I found a discussion from somebody with the same problem who also published a picture of his crossover, and discovered that where he's got a 8uF cap I got a 6,2uF. So I' m wondering if my crossover is complaying to the original spec or it has been modified. Moreover I would like to ask to Mr Thiel, if on his projects, he is thinking of a replacement for the midrange speaker. Mine are ok at the moment but one has been repaired at the cone tinsel lead, and if in case of need could I use the scanspeak 10F8424 as is suggested somewhere on the net ? By the way, somebody here has done it and is happy with that ? Thanks everybody and excuse me if any mistake, Massimo |
My Thiels dominate my 11 x 13 basement room but the sound is glorious. Most of my gear is 40 years old: Oracle TT, Monster Alpha 1 ctg, PS IV preamp. I upsized my VSP Labs amp (150wpc) for an Adcom 5800 (250wpc) that pushes these speakers to satisfying volume. I’ve recently added a Wiim streamer and last week got a Fosi Box 5 to play with to see if it’s better than the PS phono stage. I’m moving in a few months to a house with a BIG space for these BIG speakers.
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Peak current measurements should be in the range of 150 amps not 18 to 30? Am I correct in assuming this spec alone conclusively makes class-D amps inappropriate for use with the speakers in question? I am somewhat shocked at the response I had from manufacturers when presented with this very question. I was asking the question looking for a response as to how well received/pleasing is the result of the pairing...sounds like no one does it because it is a bad match. Is there a list of amps people feel meet electrical and real world listening criteria - favorite pairings? |
agdrago A capable amp's power specs should read something like: - 100W @ 8 ohms, 0.1% distortion or less 20Hz - 20kHz, both channels driven - 200W @ 4 ohms, 0.1% distortion or less 20Hz - 20kHz, both channels driven - 400W @ 2 ohms, 0.1% distortion or less 20Hz - 20kHz, both channels driven - Stable at 1 ohm Amps whose specs diverge much from the above template may sound just fine, or even fantastic, paired with high-efficiency speakers. But amps that will convincingly, authoritatively drive large, low-efficiency floorstanders with unforgiving impedance curves ought to be able to deliver 150A current peaks, not 15A.
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beetlemania -Biwire is a special case. There are theoretical and empirical advantages. I've gotten good results with internally-biwired cable (in the same jacket). Problems arise with separate runs that the speaker designer can't control. An individual can evaluate including their own preferences. Also, there are upsides to single-wiring including avaialbility of all the conductive cross-section for big transients. Etc. etc. etc. Wire is a maze as well as amazing. Tom
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@tomthiel Reading your post reminded me that I *did* compare with and without biwiring (via that Cardas jumper plate I later sent you). I preferred the sound of the biwire configuration but, yes, it was the binding posts and/or Cardas hookup wire that made the biggest sonic difference. |
Just in case anyone is interested, updated my Virtual System in Audiogon to reflect the changes that I have made over the last few years. These include some significant upgrades to my digital signal chain. https://www.audiogon.com/systems/11920
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I have had my used BAT VK-250 for about a month on the 2.4’s. It is such a nice amp for those speakers. So cost effective to,1800.00 with a factory check up. If that helps anyone looking for a nice combination to explore on a friendly budget. I wanted to ask if anyone has the diagram for the crossovers of their 2.4’s ? Rob sent one to me at one time after I had sent him my bass driver to check out. That was over 2 yrs ago and I can’t find it. I want to at least replace resistors on the xovers now and I just wanted to see the values and locations. And if someone has a recommendation for resistors I would appreciate that also. And then I think to myself while am on that, maybe caps also. But I remember one cap not being able to find the same value in a after market cap. I will have to work on finding that I would guess. Thank you for any help you could provide. |
beetlemania- I’m brewing the tea we started those several years ago. It’s getting richer and stronger. Among the many lessons learned were real developments in wire and cable. You and I both like Cardas; very well conceived and executed designs. But with considerable complexity and cost. I learned from senior wire designers that to work optimally, the design must be worthy, plus everything must be executed to perfection, and the connectors to even higher perfection. I suspect that a big part of what you like in your Cardas conversion is the PBP posts. Any of you who have those big-lug Thiel binding posts like on the CS2.4 can run an experiment. Put locking bananas on your cables. Try the inexpensive WBT / angled, stackables from Parts Express. Remove the knurled post nuts. Plug the bananas into the banana jacks. Listen and report back. Ruminate on that and consider the GR-Research Electra Tube Connectors. Small progress every day. Tom |
@thieliste I replaced the OEM hookup wire in my CS2.4 SE with Cardas. In the same step, I replaced the OEM binding posts with Cardas PBP and made it biwireable (ie, runs of speaker cables from the amp to binding posts connected to each of the coax and woofer boards). So, I cannot ascribe the overall effect to any of those three changes. But I will say that I had a BIG smile on my face when I hit play on Roon :)
Really curious to learn more about what Tom Thiel has brewing . . . |
gmosley - Room placement is an art of its own. This forum can guide you to literature / information on that subject. Thiel products are wide-dispersion transducers, so try to keep them away from side walls or treat the walls more so than with many other speakers. Thiel’s grilles are multi-purpose. In addition to the aesthetics, they also fill the edges of the baffle to reduce diffraction. Better if you use them. The EQ extends bass to about 25Hz - worth the extra pair of interconnects. |
thieleste - I concur with vair68robert - Cardas is a good, albeit expensive, solution. Background in brief: Thiel discovered its 18-2 x tight twist in teflon via aerospace, and solved otherwise insurmountable problems developing the 1978 model 03. Phase/Time coherence brought many system shortcomings into bright focus and ordinary wire was a big limitation. That 'Thiel' wire withstood all comparisons over the decades: 1988 CS5 development where we compared all the available contenders, and again Jim’s 2006 CS3.7 Swan Song design. From Thiel’s perspective and value assessment, it couldn’t be beat. I began my own Thiel assessments in the mid 20teens and got serious in 2018. My scrutiny operates a little differently in that my value equation assumes product ownership, so further investments become incremental and more affordable than in new product bill-of-goods. I was aided by all the wire/cable heavy hitters and have learned more than I thought possible, especially in the domains of wavefront propagation integrity, and who understands what and how. My studies and progress landed with physics and quantum states, in which company ’it’ all makes as much sense as one’s skills can digest, interpret and apply. Deepest, longest rabbit hole of my life. In our present context, the only ’stranded’ wires that pass muster for me are those that somehow insulate strand from strand - which are typically called 'solid' even when very small. Those include Cardas, some Kimber, Morrow, Anti-Cable and Iconoclast. (And possibly others I don’t know.) Many of the geometries are quite complex and expensive, and very good. New Thiel's 16awg - stranded is a big backslide, which often happens in the Dr. Toole frame of reference of ABX and things only matter if provable under their parameters and testing protocols. My (upcoming) Renaissance wire family incorporates everything I’ve learned and painstakingly proven in the lab and listening room over the past 7 years. From my perspective of ’do no evil’ and ’preserve everything’, it nails it. And it is relatively simple and accessible - and therefore affordable. Summary: Wire matters. There are more ways to go wrong than right. Low frequencies act differently than high frequencies (beyond current capacity). It you want to replace wire, investigate the brands I’ve mentioned. If you want to wait for mine, I really expect it to be available this year as ICs, Speaker Cable, internal hookup, chassis wire and coils. It stands on the shoulders of Thiel’s classic wire, which in many ways is already best of form. |
thieliste I rewired my 2.7 with Cardas when I found out that the speakers had wire that (I think) was used on the " new Thiel " speakers , a 16awg stranded lamp cord style . At first I used 15.5awg for all 3 speakers , I then switched to 17.5 for the coaxial speakers and keep the 15.5 woofer for the woofer and for the speaker cable postes to the crossover boards . I am very happy with the results especially because I bought the wire on sale and before the price of copper went up . The one negative I can offer for using the Cardas wires Is that you should to use a hotpot to remove the lacquer coating . |
