jafant - yes, we can read it. Thank you.
It's always sobering when a friend, or associate of any kind, vanishes. I feel fortunate that you re-introduced me to Bill 5 or so years ago. Bill and I knew each other as co-exhibitors at audio shows, but otherwise had no involvement. When you recommended him to upgrade my classic Classé gear it was a great fit. That led to Bill becoming part of the nascent Thiel Renaissance dream. Bill worked on the CS3-3.5 equalizer upgrade, specifically conversion to two separate mono fully balanced units powered by a single outboard power supply. Bill's declining health put that project way on his back burner and I'll be picking up the pieces on my next trip to Virginia.
Bill was a very special person on many fronts. Regarding audio, he would bring his accumulated big bag of special insight and experience to bear on whatever the project at hand. The results were always good. I am pleased to have his final Oppo 105 upgrade. It plays any/all disc formats in elegant form.
Parkinson's and all degenerative diseases seem especially cruel. Bill faced his journey with characteristic upbeat good will and good work. We'll miss him.
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Has anyone disassembled a Thiel SS2 subwoofer? I would like to troubleshoot the amplifier but not sure if I should remove the front screws and drivers or just try taking out the amp from the rear.
Please let me know. Thanks
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@dmanzi0219 Remove the screws on the outer edge of the amplifier plate to remove from the rear.
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dmanzi0219
Welcome! Good to see you here today. Feel free to read through this thread as we have a few Panel members with SS1, SS2 subwoofer(s) in their systems. Otherwise, stay tuned until one of our experts chimes in to address your query.
I look forward in reading more about your Musical tastes.
Happy Listening!
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pablohoney
Thank You for addressing the SS2 subwoofer query.
Happy Listening!
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tomthiel
Thank You for replying and sharing your experience with Mr. Bill Thalmann (R.I.P.).
PM sent.
Happy Listening!
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All -
over on U.S. Audiomart there are quite a few Thiel speakers up for grabs. Specifically, I spotted , CD 1.5, CS 1.6 with Outriggers, CS 2.4 with Outriggers and CS 3.7 with outboard XO. I hope all of these fine loudspeakers find the next good Home.
Happy Listening!
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The 3.7's and external crossovers that just arrived ?
Who makes external crossovers for Thiel speakers ?
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vair68robert - I susepect it's they guy who makes aftermarket 'fixes' for various speakers. when I spoke with him a few years ago he said his units 'fixed known abberations in the Thiel's upper midrange'. Rob Gillum bought one to measure and said he was reducing amplitude across the upper midrange and introducing phase-shift. Parts quality was significantly below Thiel's standards. These units are 'pre-crossovers', not replacements. They pre-shape the signal before it goes to the internal crossover.
Again I'm speculating what's up, could be something else.
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Hi Thiel speaker aficionado!
I have a question regarding a low frequency powered subwoofer speaker addition to my stereo setup. In my case its the CS2.4 towers and Pass Labs X150.8 stereo amplifier along with one REL S/812 powered sub.
Out of the gate I can tell it’s more than capable of producing more LF than will ever be needed so its in a good location. (front corner facing the listening position directly behind left channel speaker) Connected up via the high level speakon input connection directly from the Pass amplifier to integrate seamlessly with my CS2.4 mains.
Does anyone have tips tricks to get optimal crossover adjustments dialed in perfectly? I’m going mostly by ear and its currently set to 12 o’clock at the level/gain knob and 2 o’clock at the Crossover knob. Phase switch is set to 180
Best regards,
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"
Hi Thiel speaker aficionado!
I have a question regarding a low frequency powered subwoofer speaker addition to my stereo setup. In my case its the CS2.4 towers and Pass Labs X150.8 stereo amplifier along with one REL S/812 powered sub.
Out of the gate I can tell it’s more than capable of producing more LF than will ever be needed so its in a good location. (front corner facing the listening position directly behind left channel speaker) Connected up via the high level speakon input connection directly from the Pass amplifier to integrate seamlessly with my CS2.4 mains.
Does anyone have tips tricks to get optimal crossover adjustments dialed in perfectly? I’m going mostly by ear and its currently set to 12 o’clock at the level/gain knob and 2 o’clock at the Crossover knob. Phase switch is set to 180"
Measure from the listening position (every room will not be identical). If you don't have an RTA, Studio Six Digital has an App (called Audio Tools) for IOS or Android and Parts Express sells the Dayton Audio IMM-6 mic (for just over $21) which has an individual calibration file (for the specific mic). Also, REW (Room EQ Wizard) is free, and Parts Express (Dayton Audio UMM-6) and others sell USB mics for use with REW.
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velocityofhue
Nice combo- CS 2.4 and Pass Labs X150.8- stay tuned until one of the Panel members chimes in to address your query.
Happy Listening!
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cascadesphil
Thank You for chiming in to address velocityofhue 's query.
Happy Listening!
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ok great! I do thank you for the advice and recommendation Cascadesphil. I didn't know if a certain frequency is best to have dialed in on crossover but it sounds like each setup differs depending on room acoustics. The test mic will give the software roll off points I assume? Sorry if that sounds like a numnut its just I'm all very new to this. I've never owned a subwoofer before
Jafant The X150.8 is incredible sounding. High end sound right from the start. Thank you for a compliment.
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"The test mic will give the software roll off points I assume?" One uses the mic with pink noise (there are free downloads as well as test discs). I usually measure with the subs turned off. In a room bass frequencies sum. So one does not want to have the main speakers producing the same frequencies as the sub and causing a bass bump at certain frequencies. So note where the mains start to drop off and set the Rel accordingly (I currently have a pair of Rel S/812s in the main system) and then test again and get it as even as possible without peaks and dips in the lower frequencies. I also use room treatments.
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velocityofhue
My pleasure. Oddly enough, the Pass Labs X150.8 is the only model that I have heard. I rather enjoyed the presentation and sound with an Aesthetix pre-amp, Aesthetix cd player, Thiel CS 2.4 loudspeakers and Synergistic Research cable loom (older series).
Sidebar:
A few years back I heard the Pass Labs XP-10 and XP-20 pre-amps with Parasound HCA series power amps, TAD loudspeakers, Esoteric DV-60 universal player, Silent Source cables and Wireworld Silver Electra power cords.
Happy Listening!
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Happy St. Patrick’s day! Anyone have advice on what external subwoofer amplifier I could use for my SS2 subwoofer? I am basically replacing all the internals of my SS2 and just wondering if anyone else has done this because my drivers are bad and the amplifier is also having some issues. Basically keeping the cabinet because it looks nice. But replacing everything else.
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biannuzzi22
There are a few fans and owners of the SS2 on the Panel. Stay tuned until one of our experts chimes in to address your query.
Happy Listening!
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@biannuzzi22 The original woofers and amplifier can be repaired. Are you sure the woofers are bad? Could the amp be feeding them a distorted signal?
What's your budget for a new amp? What woofers will you be installing in your SS2 cabinet?
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Greetings Thiel fans, i have been using Thiel speakers since 1986 starting with a pair of 2.0's and am now enjoying a pair of 3.7's that I got from Rob about five years ago. In a very recent correspondence, he suggested that I add some resistors to the mid/tweeter driver. see his note below. Does anyone here have any experience with adding those resistors to their 3.7's which have the black bezel drivers? Thanks for any input.
Hi Kent,
"Glad to hear from you. I have also found that placing a small 5 watt, 2.5 ohm resistor in series with the positive wire, makes them sound great, and more sonically balanced. It seems to me that the CS3.7 is a little bright. This will solve the issue. In the beginning the silver bezel coaxes had a tuning resistor added to the mid and tweeter, as needed. I do have the 5 watt, 3 ohm resistors in stock. The resistors should be added to both the midrange and the tweeter, in series with the positive wire to the coax mid and tweeter. 4 resistors are on their way via regular mail. The original resistors were .33 ohms to .75 ohms. Which were used on the silver bezel coaxes."
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berko17
Thank You for chiming in to address biannuzzi22 's query.
Happy Listening!
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ronkent
Always great to see you here. Thank You for posting your query. Stay tuned until Tom or one of The Panel's DIY experts chimes in to address your query.
Happy Listening!
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Rob suggested the 2.5 ohms and said he heard that 2.7 ohms were used and had positive results .
Two days ago I ordered Mills 5 watt 2.5 ohm resistors from Michael Percy Audio , half the price that PartsConnexion is now charging .
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When I began this journey in 2018, I bought some including the SS2. I took it to Atlantic Systems, masters of repair and long-term warranty station for many high performance brands. Short story is that without schematics, they were unable to crack the code.
Regarding the code, Jim incorporated his proprietary boundary effects compensations into the amplification circuitry along with thermistors in the voice coils to boost power relative to heat and position. It seems that Jim kept all of this as proprietary and did all the repair himself at Thiel.
We need schematics to make progress. I don't yet have them, but I haven't given up hope.
If you haven't already, contact Rob Gillum at Coherent Source Service. Those woofers are special, they have coil and pole piece shunts and all the accumulated Jim Thiel advancements. They're also extremely durable and if they're broken may be repairable. Try to keep them.
Regarding amps, Rob says that eventually the Canadian 'Bash' company built replacement amps. That's about all I can say about the subs. They are the best I've ever heard.
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vair68robert
Thank You for posting your findings as well. Keep us posted as you massage those Mills resistors into your speakers.
Happy Listening!
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tomthiel
Thank You for chiming in to address the SS2 query. I hope that you are well as we start Spring.
Happy Listening!
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Some thoughts related to CS3.7 ’brightness’.
Brightness, or excessive upper midrange energy is a common complaint about Thiel speakers. Knocking those frequencies down will reduce the perceived problem, but I’d like to add some perspective to that solution.
I know intimately how Jim developed and voiced his speakers. He compared and correlated ear, impulses, sweeps and pink noise using floor-standing, aerially suspended, and ground-plane techniques. He achieved his goal of less than 1/10th dB / octave-averaged power of differences. I believe Thiel speakers are flat. That judgement runs contrary to many user’s experience. Following are some thoughts about that discrepancy.
Jim’s design listening position is off-axis via speakers pointing straight ahead. Lots of irregularities are reduced or eliminated at the resultant 25-30° off axis listening position. Note that most listeners, nearly universally, toe the speakers in perhaps half that amount. They then get more high frequency amplitude and more discrepancy between drivers than a properly (as designed) positioned listener.
So why do most listeners prefer listening closer to on-axis than designed? One reason might be that Thiel speakers have unusually wide dispersion patterns. That is by design - approximating how a real sound source would radiate into the listening environment. Look at the off-axis plots of Thiel speakers and you’ll see only a few dB of high frequency droop with very similar response curves to the on axis response. That wide dispersion provides better in-room power response, better stereo imaging and better phase coherence. But it comes at the cost of more side-wall reflected energy than most speakers. I suggest trying straight-ahead orientation while adding sonic absorbancy at the side wall first reflection point. My experience is that the reflection is causing the perceived problem and that absorbing the reflection presents a better solution than reducing the amplitude of the offending frequencies.
I have only heard 3.7s once, in 2012 in Thiel’s listening room, powered by the Krell FPB-600. That room measures 14’ high x 22’ wide x 36’ long, with 1.5" thick wall panels covering perhaps 1/4 - 1/3 of the wall surfaces and wall to wall wool carpet on hair pad. Room is of medium vibrancy, not dead, not live. The 3.6s sounded magnificent without a trace of brightness.
Not everybody has such a room. My point is that rooms make tons of difference which are best addressed via room / acoustic solutions rather than loudspeaker modifications.
I have been wrestling with other causes of the persistent complaints of high-frequency less than best-ness. I have identified (and previously mentioned) wavefront propagation anomalies that when mitigated, control a sonic instability perceived mostly in the high frequencies. The propagation turbulence is actually full-spectrum and my newly emerging acoustic wavefront propagation solution produces a full bandwidth uniquely settled and natural sound.
Another situation is that Jim chose aluminum driver diaphragms for lots of good reasons. However the tweeters breakup harshly around 25kHz. Even though that is above (generally accepted) hearing limits, that breakup mode couples with some wire anomalies to produce less than best transparency in the highs. Thiel’s solid18-2 in teflon from the 1978 model 03 was reconfirmed for the 1988 CS5 and again for the 2006 CS3.7. I like it a lot compared with other contenders. But there is a problem with skin-depth saturation beginning at 17kHz which interacts with the instability of that tweeter breakup mode. My new cable uses two smaller gauge conductors per leg to raise the saturation frequency to 42kHz. The chronic Thiel high frequency blockiness dissolves into grace and air. My assessment is that any perceived high frequency ’brightness’ will vanish without reducing amplitude via a series resistor.
I realize that this new cable solution has been a long time in the pipeline. It's now in its fourth generation prototype, and the design is settled. My 3rd generation hand loom is being built which allows small scale prototypes for beta co-developers and critical feedback. I believe it will be worth the substantial wait.
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tomthiel
Thank You for posting your experiences, thoughts and impressions on the CS 3.7 Loudspeaker. I concur, in that, models CS 2.4, 2.4SE, 2.7 and 3.7 do not require toe-in positioning. Older Thiel speakers may benefit from toe-in positioning.
Sound advice, as always.
Happy Listening!
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2nd Note;
In my Thiel trials, I did find that models CS 1.6 and 1.7 speakers benefits from slight toe-in. I hope this helps current and future fans and owners on The Panel.
Happy Listening!
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JA - I posit that all Thiel models have benefited from toe-in for a high majority of users, including myself. But, it's a mixed bag of trade-offs and that toe in contributes toward the felt need to reduce high frequency energy. I'm unraveling the puzzle.
I'll note behind the curtain that Jim was smoking before he was a teenager and his high frequency hearing was compromised. Whereas his analytical ear was highly developed in sorting out the sonic integration puzzle in the lower ranges, he was comparatively insensitive to such nuances at the upper end of the sonic spectrum.
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tomthiel
Yes, toe-in for the CS 3.7 speaker will certainly decrease high-frequency energy.
Keep up the excellent sleuth work!
Happy Listening!
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@jafant i am confused. in a post above you said that 3.7's do not require toe in but the above post says that toe in decreases HF energy. that does not compute.
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ronkent
Good to see you here today. The CS 3.7 speaker does not require toe-in to enjoy its inherent dispersion/radiance HF energy. In other words, Soundstage.
If an Audiophile chooses toe-in, then, HF energy is decreased affecting dispersion/radiance patterns. This is a matter of preference and taste. Hope this opinion clarifies.
Happy Listening!
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Toe in will typically increase direct high frequency, but decrease reflected high frequency. Reflected high frequency can be more objectionable.
A tiny bit of toe in can offer some compensation for limited available listening distance. For example; with a 10’ center to center speaker width, a <2 degrees toe in can allow an 8’ listening distance to more closely approximate the preferred 10’ listening position.
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thanks Guys. mine are toed in maybe 3-5 degrees. the right speaker has nothing beside it to create additional HF. the left speaker has a wall near it but i have a big sound diffusion panel at the first reflection to help. I use a laser level across the front of the speakers that projects a laser line onto the other speaker. it barely bisects the side of the speaker and when i get the same thing on both speakers, i have got them toed in the same. does that make sense? i would post pics but there is no way to do it as far as i can tell.
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I've owned the 3.7s and 2.7s.
Like most speakers, toe-in increases the high frequency content, toe out reduces it and mellows out the sound more.
I toe them out somewhat, not to just forward facing, but enough to have a smooth balance and to increase the apparent soundstage and imaging size.
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Same here i never toe in my 3.7s, this is definitely the best results i got but i'm lucky to have plenty of room from the side walls like about 6 feet.
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Thanks everyone for the info about the SmartSub SS2. I am having a guy in Denver replace the drivers with ones that are more easily available. The amp might be going bad so I might get an external amp. I know this won’t make it a true Thiel product but I just want to find an easier way to keep this subwoofer. If anyone else has used different parts for a similar project please let me know.
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I found out that my Thiel SS2 subwoofer’s amp was sending extra voltage to the drivers which caused one of them to blow. I am just going to drill a hole in the back and use an external amplifier. Does anyone have any recommendations on external subwoofer amps? Any suggestions on 500 watt drivers would also be greatly appreciated.
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