Thiel Owners
prof... THAT'S IT!!! Your statement on Thiel's bass being tonally correct is a descriptive that has eluded me from day one, felt, heard, but never able to put the words together. I've been in the wine business for 36 years. About 30 years ago we were tasting some 1986 Burgundies, everyone tasting, writing notes, slurping down oysters, discussing each in an open forum. I was something of a newbie then, perhaps six years in the biz. We were on a particularly aggressive label when one of the people put forth a comment regarding its bouquet, stating that it had notes of "sauerkraut". THAT'S IT!!! For years before that there was that SOMETHING my schnozola was communicating to my brain but my brain couldn't process into words. While I couldn't find the words to describe that, I looked for it in all the white Burgundies I would sample. It wasn't hot-dog sauerkraut, but a wisp note of something elemental in the mix. That too became a reference point for me when tasting/buying white burgundies. I look for it any time I taste Chardonnay, even California ones. This is waaaaaay beside the point of what this thread/forum has had to offer, but holy shite! That statement of being "tonally" correct was a pleasant revelation for me, as well as one that accurately describes the overall sonics that make Thiel so desirable, and perhaps, offer to those thinking about a pair of legacy models just how damn fine they are. Sauerkraut for everyone! |
The biggest short coming of the Thiele has always been the Xover parts used . I have assisted in parts upgrade which takes the sometimes thin sounding Speaker with Excellent potential to Transformed such as One of my favorites Mundorf Silver oil capacitors on the tweeter. Path audio my far the best most accurate resistors under 1% distortion. Without breaking the bank Mids Many top brands Duelund ,Mundorf, Audyn,Clarity, and and quality inductors Such as Jantzen. Very much overlooked and the Majority of companies under $10k uses Solen ,sub standard in my mind. Go to Humble homemade hifi - capacitor test,a great cookbook for caps. |
jafant, Understandable. We all have our own criteria. I personally like a near field, or close to near field listening set up because I love being enveloped in the sound, I get the most realistic sound staging, and to my ears usually the most natural, relaxed and realistic timbral qualities to voices and instruments (since near field reduces the influence of the room). But more distant set ups do tend to sound more dynamic and lifelike in that way, so I can see the appeal in how you prefer to listen. jonandfamily, It's been a long time since I heard the 3.6s - or the CS6 for that matter - but what I remember is the 3.6s having just a bit more "shine" to the upper frequencies that could be a bit detached to piercing, whereas the CS6 had a smoother, more sophisticated sound. No doubt the coaxial design had something to do with it. But I also remember some mild issues with the CS6, a bit of hollowness that could creep in in the high midrange/low tweeter frequencies, especially dependant upon seating height/position. It could add a sort of thinning, cardboard/papery sound to instruments when they travelled in to that range (e.g. high register woodwinds). But it wasn't frequent or bad enough to be a bummer. The 3.7s have none of that, I was happy to find. |
Thanks for your input prof. I'm not sure why I thought you had the CS3.6s. I'm curious why you preferred the CS6 over the 3.6s...do you think it was the coaxial design? I have always wondered what the CS7.2 would sound like with my setup. Jafant, check my virtual system. I use older Synergistic Research cables and I'm satisfied with them. I love tubes with the Thiels. I can listen for hours with zero fatigue. |
Interesting prof, I would need a room, at least, 20x20 to even begin to enjoy a pair of CS 3.7 loudspeakers. Take into consideration the type of power amp required to drive them to proper effect. My only demo was w/ an Anthem 225 integrated. To my surprise, that amp did drive those speakers as loud as I wanted. I tend to listen on the loud side of things. Happy Listening! |
jonandfamily, I never had the 3.6s, though I heard them many times "back in the day." I preferred the CS6's over the 3.6, and had the CS6's for quite a while. (They worked well in my small room; the 3.7s work even better). Nothing I miss about any previous Thiel's over the 3.7s. Jim's final designs somehow managed to keep all the great things we love about Thiel speakers - the aliveness, believability of transients, instrumental timbre, etc, but increasing coherency and smoothness in the upper mid/treble, for an even more organic sound. It's seems ironic to me that Thiel over the years has had the reputation for ruthlessly revealing and being bright. I have very sensitive ears - including Tinnitus - so if a speaker is bright or hashy sounding at all, I have real problems. The 3.7s (especially combined with my CJ amps) have been about the smoothest, most fatigue free sound I've ever had in my room. I can listen for hours without my ears getting too tired or sensitive. BTW, as I mentioned, despite my adoration for my 3.7s I may have to sell them for ergonomic reasons. Not that they don't work perfectly in my smallish room (13 x 15), but rather because I have other speakers in there taking up room for home theater, I have to place the 3.7s right at the room opening, which makes it awkward getting in and out, among other things. I really need a smaller speaker only in that regard. Sonically, they are as close to perfectly balanced as I've heard in my room or anywhere else. |
I have really enjoyed following this discussion over the last year. I have been more passive with opinions because I recognize that all of our senses are clearly subjective. oblgny... I'm reflecting back on our exchange on this discussion 8/31/16. Since I have owned 3.6s for over 6 years and have never heard the 3.5s, I will be waiting in anticipation about your opinions regarding the comparison. The only change that I have made the last couple of years is selling my Audio Research Ref 5 and buying a preowned 5SE in December here on Audiogon. I'm still very content with my current setup. prof... I also followed your discussion with the change from 3.6s to 3.7s, since we have a lot in common. I also have a fairly small listening room and sit about 7-8 feet from my 3.6s. I have been contemplating moving to the 3.7s myself if I can find a pair close-by and affordable. Prof, are there any attributes of the 3.6s you miss that you're not getting with the 3.7s? Thanks, Jon p.s By the way, there is a pair of 3.6s for sale locally here on Craigslist in Birmingham allegedly from an original owner, but without the boxes. https://bham.craigslist.org/ele/6053373347.html |
oblgny, I thoroughly agree about Thiel's and bass. I've enthused about this often. It is the most tonally controlled bass I've ever experienced. When a stand up bass plays there is none of that added bit of blur/bloom at the bottom that you hear with most speakers. You hear that vibrating string and soundboard resonating - and only that - all the way to the floor as it were. And all the bass energy remains focused right where the instrument is coming from, making even low bass just as holographically placed as any other part of the spectrum. They are such an achievement! |
golferboy... I'm awaiting delivery on a pair of 3.6's after having two pairs, at different junctures, of 3.5's which as some folks here already know, became my reference point for loudspeakers in general. (I gifted my first pair to my nephew.) I've just sold my 3.5's to make room for the 3.6's. I'm literally watching the calendar daily waiting for the truck to arrive. Hell, I've even purchased a hand truck/dolly to get them into the house. And to think I have said that moving my 3.5's around once in a while is a pain in the ass... SInce many of us suffer the same fate of having so few bricks and mortar high fidelity retailers around now, I have purchased all of my Thiels used, without audition. The first time I hooked up my 2.3's I was so impressed that I literally stopped in my tracks. Then the first pair of 3.5's became available - involving a 400 mile round trip to fetch them - and I was doubly impressed. I sold those to get a pair of Maggies - which I also happen to hold in very high regard - eventually deciding that Thiels, in general, are Maggies with bass. And not just any old bass, PROPER bass. Musical bass, with all the mids and high definition that Thiel and Magnepan excel in. I am a zealot, a Thielist, I've drunk the kool-aid and can't help myself. Recently I came to the conclusion that all of my purchasing/selling of associated equipment was detracting from my enjoyment of music, or at least the simple act of tossing something on and enjoying it without nitpicking my system. (Until a week or so ago it was a Pass Labs X150.5 SS amplifier, a Balanced Audio Technology VK3i tubed preamplifier, a Primare phono stage...and a few things I had lying about, a CJ amp, a Threshold amp...) IMHO Pass Labs is a sweet match for Thiels. Even though I doubt I ever came even remotely close to flexing the amp's 300 watt into 4 ohm capability, the sound was incredible. Clean, articulate, just like the Thiels. I am expecting much of the same from the 3.6's. I'll be driving them with a Simaudio Neo 340i integrated, capable of 200 watts per channel into 4 ohms which, methinks, will be sufficient for appreciating the 3.6's. I listen at VERY conservative levels. The meter on the Pass rarely, if ever, even budged a smidgen. Thus far the Neo has proven to be a pretty damn good amp with the 3.5's, perhaps not as "analytical" as the Pass but still within the parameters that I've come to gauge my equipment by. For the record, and thanks to Jafant and unsound for their input on everything Thiel, I went to all Transparent cabling a while back and have found that to be a great match. ("Synergy", as jafant likes to term it.) Hopefully I will settle down for a while and let the 3.6's earn their keep with the Neo - although, as the past has taught me, THAT's pretty unlikely. The one thing I AM certain of is that the 3.6's will become my new reference for loudspeakers. Whether or not I embark on an integrated amplfier shoot-out in the coming months is perhaps another post's story. Besides, that could be fun in this thread. Any comments to care to share with your 3.6's is very welcome. Happy listening - Thiels Reveal! |
jafant, I went into lots of detail about the Thiels and (my) tube amps in this thread a while back: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/thiel-with-quot-warmest-quot-midrange-2-7-vs-3-7-vs-older?hig... My speaker cables are still 10 awg Belden cable ;-) |
Good to see you- robinbarbour agreed- on the tubey side, one would have to step up from CJ to VAC/VTL for measure. The CS 2.7 is a killer speaker to be certain. Remember, the 3.7 is tops but also requires a large to very large space to get a proper dial-in. Bigger power amp(s) too. If you ever get an opportunity to demo the CS 2.4SE, I would advise it. Something really "sweet" about this model. |
Good to see you here- golferboy hope you are enjoying the CS 3.7 loudspeakers. They are outstanding, as is, the rest of the CS series (2.4, 2.4SE and 2.7 models). Do not worry about value at this point. In time, they will certainly hold and increase as true collectors "sit" on them. What gear, including cabling, is in your system? |
Ah, got it. Sometimes I wish I'd grabbed an early pair of 2.7s that were available to me, if only because they are a bit smaller and they had the ebony finish I coveted. Still, it's simply astonishing how well the 3.7s work in my small room. In terms of "room problems," frequency bulges or nodes they are as perfect as I've ever heard in any speaker anywhere. There is literally nothing in any track I can play that trips them up and calls attention to the speaker. And, again, that's driving them with the CJ tubes. Though I used to own a smaller CJ tube amp many years ago before the Premier 12s, and it didn't control the bass of larger speakers like the Premier 12s do. As I may have mentioned earlier in the thread, I've also sometimes hooked up my tiny Eico HF 81 14Wpc integrated tube amp and, aside from the bass getting a bit overwarm, it sounded glorious with the 3.7s. |
Been I while since I posted in this thread, happy to see it still going! A few things: 1. Has anyone noticed that the sales of the Thiel flagship 3.7 and 2.7 speakers has almost totally dried up???!!! I’d decided I had to have the 2.7 or 3.7 soon after Jim had passed away and after Thiel changed hands to the new speaker design. So in early 2015 I had to go into the second hand/dealer demo market to get them. And there were lots available at that point. I missed out on some sales of the ebony finish I favored, so I grabbed a morado/red pair. I’m glad I grabbed that pair when I did because having continued to monitor the market..I noticed that shortly after that they became very sparse in the second hand market - like I got in at the tail end of the fire-sale. It now seems damned hard to come across those classic flagship models for sale anymore - specifically in North America. It’s like whoever owns one is keeping it! And owning the 3.7s, boy do I understand that. 2. That said...I may be selling my 3.7s - and if so I already feel regret! - due to a rather idiosyncratic set up that causes me some ergonomic problems. Basically, I have a smallish room that does double duty as my home theater and two channel listening room. So it’s already full of my surround speakers, and I have to drag the 3.7s in and out to listen to them. I’ve thought of some possible solutions to the issue, but none seem as good as just trying to find a smaller speaker to work with. This comes at a time when I’ve currently dialed the Thiels in to such a degree in my room that my mind is just blown by these things. But...before I decide on whether I’m keeping them, I’ve started to seriously research and demo other more portable alternatives to the 3.7. So I’ve read a lot about and auditioned: Harbeth speakers, JM Reynaud, Audio Note, Audio Physic, Vivid (kind of, just quickly), and Joseph Audio thus far. I plan to do start another thread with a detailed post about what it is like living with the 3.7s and my impressions of those other speakers. And if I’ve found anything worthy of replacing the Thiels :-) |
Love, love this thread. I have taken my 3.6s as far as they can go in terms of performance and I'd like to upgrade to Thiel 6, and then to 3.7. Thoughts please. Also, the reviews of the 3.7s are all fantastic, but they don't seem to be holding their value as one can pick up a pair for less than a third of their retail price. These two points don't jive as far as I'm concerned. Can anyone explain? |
Me as well- William, upon my first Thiel CS 2.4 demo, I was struck by the proverbial "lightning" Like you, I stumbled upon them at Soundscape in Baltimore MD. They were in the used/demo sound room. I was on a work assignment for 3-months and spent several days each week of that duration as I could not get enough of the "sound" that I was hearing. Unreal. Happy Listening! |
Robinbarbour... Yeah, pretty ridiculous the amount of changes, right? So far as not having auditioned the 3.6's before buying them, all I can say is that I didn't have the opportunity to do so on my 2.3's nor the 3.5's. Stumbling upon Thiel has proven to be one of the most fortunate happenin's in my audio life. I did a fair amount of reading about Jim Thiel and his work prior to my first purchase, and that's pretty much what got me. I liked his overall sensibilities, and the various reviews I picked up here and elsewhere pretty much all contended the same opinion - great speakers at almost any price. And since we're all now relegated to buying used ones only, that sentiment resonates much deeper. (No pun intended. ) My current spate of shifting equipment has not disappointed me - though it's been a tad ridiculous. I am utterly confident that I'll enjoy them as I am utterly confident that whomever buys my 3.5's will as well. This Thiel kool-aid we're drinking is damn yummy! |
I finally located a pair of 3.6's in what appear to be acceptably good condition considering their age for $1450, all including crating and shipment from Chicago. Quite difficult to find in or around New York. My 3.5's are up here on the site, local pickup only. I'll be sticking with all Transparent cabling as I've been for the last few months. They're swell. Should arrive late next week. Woohoo! |
So I picked up the 1.5's today...near perfect shape (8 to 9 by agon rating) and quickly set them up with a NAD D3020 and anticables (main systems are boxed up for a move) and streaming pandora through a Galaxy S7... even with this far less than ideal set up they image really well and seam very accurate, not at all bright or harsh. their normal diet will be fed by a Linn LP12 through an Ayre P-5XE phono and a Coda CsiB (400 into 8ohm, 800 into 4) After 20 minutes I like these enough to know they're worth hunting down a pair of Sound Anchor stands (or Target?) for.... need to get the tweeter height up a bit. does anyone have any leads on good stands for these? Thanks, |
Thanks Jafant, there's a pair of birdseye maple 1.5's here in Portland that look to be in really nice shape for 575.00 going to check them out at noon. I've been free of the audio addiction for a couple of years (living on a house boat does not make the turn table happy!) but just got a new place that has rooms to support it. My past speakers were Dunlavy SCIVA's (all time favorite) that evolved into the Vandersteen range (2ce sig, 3A sig, quattro) after a move to a place that didn't have the needed room size. I never really got on with the vandersteens and missed the dynamics of the dunlavy's. I'm hoping to find the accuracy that time aligned and phase coherent drivers bring and get some dynamics and impact back. Looking for 2.4, 2.7's as well for a bigger room... |
Sure- unsound, I will be in a position to travel as soon as Summer arrives. I do have my plan narrowed down to a tubed pre-amp and solid-state power amp. I have heard this combo spread among several different Audio brands and really enjoyed the musicality and synergy. This combo also jives very well w/ Thiel loudspeakers. |
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