Thiel Owners

Dan:  I certainly understand about your speakers starting to morph.   mine were actually pretty bad the first night i heard them but now they are fantastically good.
Jeff Joseph speakers are great and I am adding Magico because I liked what I heard with their new baby speaker, but not enough to want to not keep the 3.7's. O course being a PS Audio guy,   their new AN speakers are sure to be great.  

Dunlavy, Duntech, Green Moutain, Meadowlark, Quad 63’s +>, jump to mind.

Most of you have identified phase coherence as a necessary ingredient for "reality music", rather than the hi fi approximation. As far as I know, Vandersteen is the only maker other than Thiel who produces actual minimum phase speakers. Their bias is towards "easier", less "incisive", but they are very good. Please advise of any of these other makers are phase coherent transducers.

Dan - the eventual list includes the x.7s. But they are so much more current that I feel obligated to take on older models first.

I have commented previously on listening position. I understand that any particular room and preferences may dictate many different positions. Crossover frequencies x propagation lobing patterns require those distances for proper integration. Anything closer or higher or lower may produce pleasant effects, but will trade off against some of the factors of fidelity.From a scientific standpoint, there is one position that replicates the design goal of minimum phase and flat tonal balance with optimum transient response. That position is minimum 2.5 meters (100"), with 3 meters (10') being a little better with an ear height of 3'±2". The more the distance, the less critical is ear height as well as toe-in.

The coincident upper driver of the x.7s greatly reduce the distance requirement.

Tom

Prof I am going to miss your 3.7-2.7 comparisons! My 3.7 which were also purchased through Rob are starting to morph, WOW! I have gone back many times to reread everyone's comments and each time i learn and discover more about these fine instruments and our obsession with them.   

Mr Tom Thiel when are you going to work on 2.7 or 3.7 you can put me on the short list ;)   

Yes I am absolutely smitten with my Thiels and will leave them for my kids one day, but here is the Taboo question what is another speaker you would want to own. Maybe with a diffrent trait? I have found I love hearing the Thiels on diffrent gear and switch back a forth. With that i would love to know what this group would choose as an alternate speaker. Here is list I have been playing with  PMC, ATC, Devore, ProAc, Vandersteen.

Dan      

i have played with it over the years and found sitting with my ear about 4" below the tweeter and about 7.5'-8' away  from the drivers works best

^Proper driver integration and time synchronization for most Thiel’s works best at least 8’ away for a listener at typical seating height.

there is a lot of valuable and useful tips on the Mapleshade website.  here are two that are relevant to the post above:  http://www.mapleshadestore.com/freeupgrades.php

Room Set-up & Speaker Placement Try Near Field Listening

Almost everybody sits way too far from their speakers, that is, 8' to 10' or more. Try a low chair (or floor pillow) 5' away. You’ll hear a phenomenal increase in clarity, bass impact, and soundstage—roughly like spending 100% more on your speakers. Sitting close (aka near-field listening) tremendously reduces all room acoustic problems and the need for expensive room treatments.

Sit Low To The Floor

Nearly everybody sits too high. The "tweeters at ear level" rule sounds logical but almost always fails when tested. Every speaker has a different optimum listening height; if you’re off the optimum ear height, you’re not getting your money’s worth. Test by sitting on one, then two, then three phone books on the floor at your normal listening spot. At the optimum height, you’ll hear an amazing new warmth and fullness in baritone voice, trombones, tenor sax, plucked bass—and a far more natural treble balance.

The listening height thread reminded me that I think anyone who finds Thiels to be bright sounding should try fiddling with the height of their seat a bit.  I find this can make a noticeable difference in the balance and it's free.

Happy Friday - All.

unsound - I agree. I don't know why Jim designed for such low system impedance. I can speculate that marginally lower distortion in the driver motor may be had via lower driver impedance . . . BUT all the amplification problems caused by low impedance are a huge negative factor in system performance. As I've mentioned, he called those problems "amp problems". I don't know enough to speculate meaningfully. 

I would have thought the extra compensation networks needed for the older drivers would have driven the impedance down, yet the older models had easier impedances.

The drivers became more rigid, operating more smoothly over a wider band-pass and therefore the compensation networks became fewer and simpler.

i thought the 2.4's were fantastic and were a big improvement over the 2.2's.   but every time i moved up (2.0, 2.2, 2.4, 2.7) in the 2 series the changes were always dramatic. 

Unsound - 2 ohm loads suck and amps give up. Thanks.

Jay - The CS2 2 and 2.3 represent a major tide change. The 2 2 uses all discrete Thiel-designed x Vifa manufactured drivers. They are conventional as single-band (woofer, mid, tweeter), although unconventional via Thiel underhung motors, copper motor shunts and so forth. The woofer is the first dual cone (straight-deep x curved-shallow). PP woofer and midrange x Aluminum (CS5) tweeter. The 2 2 was also the first passive radiator which became the new order. That basketless foam core diaphragm sported dual rubber surrounds (front and back of baffle) to maintain linearity without the cost of supporting framework. That geometry convinced Jim to migrate from the (very inexpensive) port to a passive radiator. In many ways the 2 2 represented a coming of age foundational product with seminal technologies.
The CS2.3 is a breakthrough to the coaxial-coincident upper driver. A central problem of first order slopes is driver lobing which makes listener position quite critical in the vertical dimension. (All those Stereophile graphs at 48" to eventually 80" misrepresent the integrated waveform at any correct (more than 8') position at the proper height (34" to 38".) You get the idea; lots of constraints. A coincident upper driver makes those upper integration problems go away, and the mid to woofer transition has long enough wavelengths to minimize actual mis-performance. The 2.3 coax incorporated the breakthrough viscous suspension which eliminated the electrical upper crossover, which could have been further refined over time to become a permanent solution. (Jim dreamed of a triax for true point-source propagation.)
However, as first-generation, the 2.3 coax was not mature. The product had the weakest sales of the series 2 generations with a life-span of less than 5 years against 9 for the 2 2 and 8 for the 2.4. The 2.3 was a watershed / breakthrough product introducing technologies that were improved by its successor . . . the CS2.4 became an audiophile darling. 

On a personal note, I was part of 2 2 development; the 2.3 was finalized after my time and its particulars are what I have gathered second-hand.

Good to read - profperhaps the new owner will join us here?  Happy Listening!

what a great story.   hope you feel better.  if you are ever in Greensboro NC come by and i will play mine for you

Well, as of late yesterday, my big ol’ Thiel 3.7s are now gone. Shipped away to some other happy fellow.

I’d advertised for local pick up, got the usual bunch of replies from honestly interested to flaky. One fellow said he wanted them for sure, was arranging to get a truck so he could pick up them up at my house...then vanished. Such is selling gear.

Eventually I was contacted by someone with a very good buyer/seller reputation wanted them, who did everything right, and it was a deal. They had to be shipped across the country though, which I was ok with as long as he arranged all the shipping, which he did. As I’d advised him to, he hired a company that would pick them up with a truck and they would be strapped to a palette upright for shipping. All I had to do was have them boxed and ready for some strapping fellows and their truck to show up.


And that was good, because pick up was arranged for yesterday afternoon and I had just come down with a flu that knocked me completely off my feet, bedridden. No condition to be moving giant speakers out of my house into trucks or anything.

So I get a knock on the door, and there’s this tiny little guy standing there, must have been 5’ 6" tall, with a teeny mini-van outside. I’m like "are you here to pick up the shipment?" He said yes. I said: "just you?" Yup. "Are you kidding me? Wasn’t it clear what type of packages you were picking up? These are big, delicate, expensive speakers. It’s not a one guy job."

He said "oh, I didn’t know. Anyway, I’ll take them."

I could barely move (so fatigued with flu) but only had to watch for one minute as this guy started trying to struggle his way out with one of the speaker boxes, starting to thump it around, when, aw dammit!...I had to help him lift the boxes out the house, down the porch steps to the street into his van. (At one point he almost tipped one of the boxes off his dolly, caught it last second before disaster!). That really sucked, I gotta say.


Apparently this fella was picking up the speakers to get them to the shipping place where they will be strapped to a palette. An audio pal said about this: hey, the buyer has paid for the speakers already, they are his, not your problem anymore."  But there’s no way I wanted anyone to buy these beautiful speakers (and I white-gloved them so they were in as-new condition), and be disappointed by shipping damage.


Hopefully things went better from that point on regarding shipping.

I admit to being somewhat wistful now even seeing a photo of the 3.7s, knowing I don’t have access to that sound now. But given the size of those flagship speakers not being fit for my room (aesthetically) it was like dating briefly with a woman out of your league. Great while it lasts, but was never really to be. :)

As above,across many Audio forums, the CS 2.2, is still  a beloved loudspeaker.Happy Listening!

tomthiel
what were the differences, if any, between the CS 2.2 and CS 2.3 models?Just curious.  Happy Listening!

Jon - Thanks for the Bryston idea. Indeed Classe DR9 is polite and a little "tubey". Bryston might be a good counterbalance.
Pops - I have never felt the need to better my CS2 2s. I'm looking forward to hearing what my XO upgrade work might bring to the table. Mine are pre-production, custom voiced prototypes, but at 28 years old are nearing their electrolytic cap lifespan. With SpectraFoo, and possibly Klippel, I will be able to re-balance all circuits for the very played-in drivers.

Good to see you - popsmodel 3.6 is a popular one. The best thing about Thiel Audio, is that, there is a loudspeaker for every Audiophile.  Happy Listening!

Excellent counterpoint - jon_5912
I will second Bryston power amps. The BP-25/26 are very fine pre-amps as well.  Happy Listening!

I know what you mean jon about your 2 2s.  I feel the same about my 3.6’s.  I have never heard or owned a speaker that floats my boat the way they do.  

I also own CS6’s, they are slightly more dynamic, play louder, but not better.  Maybe not as good.  

I hate to always be contrary but from what I've read the PS audio BHK amps are voiced similarly to most Classe amps.  Both tend to be slightly on the laid back side.  It seems to me that the Classe amps should be balanced by some crystal clear solid state amps that some would find bright.  I'd probably go with Bryston.  I've never owned a Bryston amp but I do have BP25 and BP26 preamps.  They're extremely unsuperstitious and flat.  I would think that Bryston stuff could be used to make sure that crossover upgrades aren't making the speakers too bright.  

My first Thiels were the 2 2s.  I bought them from Audio Consultants in Chicago around 2010.  I consider them the audiophile end of the rainbow.  They were old when I got them.  They are supremely well balanced.  If you listen to unamplified acoustic music and aren't a billionaire this is as far as you need to go.  I understand why my 3.7s are better but they aren't all that much better.  

Right On! ronkent
good to read that Taylor is doing well and expanding his operation. Success could not happen for a nicer gentleman of Audio.   Happy Listening!

hi Jafant,   truthfully i buy direct from PS but Taylor is only about 30 minutes from my home.   he is who i got my 2.7's from back in 2014.  of course the 3.7's  came from Rob at CST.  I have not been to Goldprint since i got the 2.7's and i know he has moved and expanded his operation.

ronkent
my tenure w/ the CS 2.7 and CS 3.7 was spent w/ an Anthem 225 integrated amp over 4 months while on work assignment in Raleigh NC back in 2014. Both amp and loudspeakers were well broken-in and the music flowed effortlessly. Playback was as loud as I wanted w/o any clipping nor deterioration of sound/presentation. All flavors were represented from classical to world music.  I can only imagine the aural pleasure demonstrated w/ a higher end amp/separates combo.
Happy Listening!

ronkent

is Taylor w/ Goldprint Audio your dealer/retailer? He owns and operates a very fine Audio establishment.  Happy Listening!

all i can say is that i have zero problems driving my current 3.7's and the recently departed 2.7's.  specs do not always give us the entire picture. You can bet that when Bascom H King designs a high end amp,  it will work with almost any fine speaker

Jafant:   I am in Greensboro NC for what that is worth  as you mentioned the southeast.

thank you.   I really cannot emphasize enough how much the new P15 power plant transformed my system.   As i posted in my review on their website: "I have not heard my system with the BHK mono blocks (have the BHK 250), so what I am going to say now may seem a bit of hyperbole, but if I had to choose between the mono blocks and no P15, or one BHK 250 amp and the P15, I know what I would do. https://forum.psaudio.com/t/my-review-of-the-new-p15-power-regenerator/6712

I know , checkout Lake George .

Thank You- ronkent
your enthusiasm on the BHK certainly has my interest peaked. I feel at ease with you being our resident PS Audio expert.  I will attempt to find an audition within the Southeast region.   Happy Listening!

Jafant,   i may be wrong but i think it was sonic frontiers but do not hold me to that.  i have to say that the BHK amp really gives me the best of both worlds.  liquid and romantic like tubes,  but also very detailed.  they have voiced it well. 

Very nice! tomthiel
are there any Audio shop(s) in your locale?  Hope you are well and enjoying the XO project.  Happy Listening!

Check out "On Golden Pond" which was filmed on Squam. The beauty here is embedded in the mentality and actions of the community.

That is kool tomthiel !White Mountains are almost as pretty as Adirondacts , Winnie isn't in a league with Lake George though .

I live in New Hampshire where the White Mountains meet Lake Winnepesaukee and Squam. Small village life, pretty far from mainstreet USA.

tomthiel
Go for It! Where do you reside these days?  Happy Listening!

ronkent
fantastic video. Which brand tubed amp did Arnie own and endorse?Happy Listening!

Ron - thanks for the link. I hope to put a BHK in the voicing mix, probably the 250 to voice toward real-world amps that Resurrected Thiels might be used with.

Tom,  Arnie Nudell sold his big and tube hungry amps ( I believe Sonic Frontiers) for these amps.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6mvhO8fVPs&t=586s

Beetle - the CDs are being considered for bypasses in the woofer shaping circuits. As PolyPropylenes they are less expensive than the PolyStyrene RTXs which will provide more detail in the upper range.

I am reaching for a level of finesse beyond what Thiel aspired. Development of the final voice will require additional reference amps. I am over a thousand miles from Rob's Krell FPB-600s, and most other heavy-hitters are beyond my reach. I have an opportunity to buy PS BHK-250 stereo or 300 mono pair. Beyond the reviews and RonKent's enthusiastic endorsement, what does this board think of the BHK as a reference amp to balance my Classé amps?

Good to see you - beetlemania
Happy Listening!

I'm less inclined to try the expensive Ayre

Just from the price points I wouldn’t think to match MXRs with CS2.4s, but I bet they would sound fantastic. Even more so with a Tom Thiel modded crossover. To repeat what I’ve written elsewhere in this thread, I suspect a modded 2.4 will compete sonically with other speakers up to $30K.