Thiel Owners

Happy New Year! All

Happy New Year everyone.  Thanks Jafant for keeping this thread rolling.  

A Happy New Year, and as my Scottish ancestors used to say at First Footing: 

"Lang May Yer Lum Reek."

"Lang may yer lum reek” is a Hogmanay greeting, implying "May you never be without fuel for your fire!", but more literally translates into "Long may your chimney smoke!”

Happy Thiel New Year  :)

tomthielGood to see you today. Yes, I hope that you see a return on your amps as well. Reading the other sites, the Classe' brand is loved, represented and is in need of customer service.  Happy New Year's Eve.

popsGood to see you. Have any of you Classe' guys heard the Omega series?Those were some serious looking fire-power.  Happy Listening!

If I ever get my recapped Classe's back from the shop, I'll report. DR6 pre and pair of DR9 power that I've had since  the late 80s. 

+1sgmlaw love Classe discussions - I have had a CA200 for 20+ years and it still drives my thiels flawlessly. Would love to recap but I counted and can’t remember exactly but there are over 20 capacitors. Yikes!

Excited to see what Classe comes up with next. Sounds like the business is up and running.

You're welcome jafant.

Happy New Year

sgmlawGood to see you again. Thank You for chiming in on Classe'/Thiel combination. It appears that we have another CA series fan on-board.Happy New Year's Eve.

holco
Thank You for your dedication and hard work on upgrading the CS 2.4 loudspeaker's XO network.  Happy New Year's Eve.

Ordered the rest of the parts to upgrade the CS-2.4 crossovers to (hopefully) perfection ;-)

2x the 0.72mH Jantzen Wax Coil, Copper foil Inductor 30mm width, 14AWG

4x the Jantzen Universal PCB, FR4, 140mm x 190mm

Jantzen Solder, 4% silver - 100g

4x the 100uF 100V Mundorf ECap AC RAW electrolytic capacitor

2x the 2R 12W MRA12 Mills Resistor

2x the 30R 12W MRA12 Mills Resistor

2x the 4R7 12W MRA12 Mills Resistor 

2x the 27R 12W MRA12 Mills Resistor

2x the 3R 12W MRA12 Mills Resistor

To make 4ohm and 16ohm resistors (can’t get them in Europe) I ordered the next following resitors,

2x the 4R7 12W MRA12 Mills Resistor

4x the 27R 12W MRA12 Mills Resistor

2x the 39R 12W MRA12 Mills Resistor

27R + 4R7 in paralel make’s 4R

27R + 39R in paralel make’s  15R95 

Hifi Collective will pair them with higher measuring 27R and 39R resistors to get 16R resistors 

Because of the lead time for the coil’s it will take some time, keep you guys posted.

2 Vk55s in mono should work nicely I think. It's a great sounding amp.  One of my favorites for sure.  

I have only used the 4 ohm tap on the Ref 110.  

The crossover info on the 2.7s could perhaps assist when I finally get my subs in action.

There is no time compensation in those crossovers. The coincident alignment is achieved geometrically via the position of the coaxial midrange and tweeter.

Hi Tom,

Actually you have answered my question.  

Thanks.

Todd, I run the CA-301.  Running unbridged, it is plenty enough for a 3 Series as long as you don’t try to fill a stadium with it.  Mine only have to fill a 600 sq ft listening room, and they can go as loud as I can tolerate.  And then some more.

Thiels are more about quality than quantity anyway.  If I wanted my neighbors a quarter mile away to hear Sinatra, I’d be running horns.

I’m winding down at this point, so this will probably be my last high quality system heading into retirement.

Got your pm.  Recapping won’t add watts, per se.  But it will stiffen up the power supply rails back to specifications so that they won’t sag as much under a heavy or sustained load.  Capacitance on the filters can start to fade a little after a couple decades.  Most of the time, with most speaker pairings, it won’t be noticed, because these instruments were so overdesigned to begin with.

But with a heavy sustained load, the quality of an older supply output can start to falter at the margins.  And as we all know, Thiels are all about plenty of sustained, very high quality current.  Not watts.  Current.  I’ve known this since the first day I owned a pair of these.  Your DR8 running bridged has more than enough high quality current reserve to drive a 3 Series Thiel.  But your Thiels will tell you without fail, every time, when its amp is starting to miss a beat here and there.  They are that relentlessly revealing of anything substandard, IMO.

Since they have emerged from their own recent reorganization, I found the people at Classe to be more than helpful with us old owners.

They would have no problems supplying a replacement jack set or screw, I’m sure.  And if not, an RCA jack on these is a generic part.   The originals are nothing fancy.  A basic Vampire or similar grade is probably an upgrade on it.

The current design team was fairly busy with some new product work, and they were not able to get back to me with some rather esoteric capacitor performance and specification questions.  But the tech and CS people were more than helpful and gave me detailed bench data to do the job I wanted.  I stayed as close to the original Nichicon parts selections of the original designers as they would have done.  No mods, no hot rodding.  All at original values.  A classic recap job.  Just a little better due to improvements with the latest electrolytic technology.  And they were rather impressed with the results, too!

The other thing you can do to keep your Classe (or any higher power amp) from straining, and your Thiels sounding their best, is a dedicated circuit and a high current power cord.  I run my Classe straight into a hospital grade dedicated outlet (20 amps via 10/2 Romex straight to the service panel) with an ancient Tice Infinite Speed cable that only provides some transient protection.  No other power conditioning.  The only ‘conditioning’ is a $99 iFi AC Purifier in the same duplex outlet, which does not impede raw AC delivery in the least.  And it sounds terrific, better than ever after two decades.

@sgmlaw,
Which CA series Classe do you use? I'm using a CA-300 with the 3.7s, but have been wondering for a while if that is enough. I'm interested in and concerned about recapping at this point. Classical solo/chamber/orchestral only (with maybe a hint of vintage 60s-70s rock if truth be told).
Todd

Thanks guys.  Sounds like I will keep my Classe amps.  I really do enjoy them and they do sound really good.  Just wish I had the DR-9 amps with more power.  

Keep that Classe, kdross.  I've run a Thiel/Classe pairing for over two decades now.  And you cannot better it.  Believe me, I've tried.  The electrical and timbral match is perfect.   The closest on tone was a big Threshold, but it lacked the dynamic headroom and full resolution of the Classe that these Thiels often demand.  The Krells are a little too iron-fisted with Thiels, which thrive on the finer tonal nuances of any good amp.  The legacy Classe amps present a slightly finer tonal palette on a Thiel than the Krells as you climb the octaves.  

One tip on the older legacy Classe amps:  Once you get about 20-25 years out, they really do benefit from a full recap.  After extended conversations with their service techs and customer service department, and upon their recommendation, I recently recapped my old CA series.  

Classe designers used exclusively Nichicons during that era, and all the capacitor families they specified in the early models have since been superseded by Nichicon with improved audio-grade versions.

It was about a 75 capacitor job.  I do my own work, so the total cost was only about $250 for the parts.  But once given about 100 hours to settle in, the older Classe is even better than new.  Everything improves up a notch, and absolutely nothing is lost.  It revived into a real sonic tiger, and a perfect pairing with the Thiels.  Jaw-dropping, actually.  Dynamics through the roof with spectacular tonal nuance.  Now it's good for another two decades . . . and I probably won't care by then.  Highly recommended.

kdross
Good to see you again. There are  a few of you guys that enjoy those Classe' DR power amps. I have been considering a Krell FPB series power amp. I was considering a KSA series power amp until I was advised that it is best suited with a dedicated line plus a 30A breaker. Otherwise, the 300S is a serious power plant.  Happy Listening!

I currently have a pair of Thiel 3.6 speaks powered by a pair of Classe Audio DR-8 amps I use in mono mode. In mono mode, the DR-8’s put out almost 600 watts at 4 ohms and sound very good with the Thiels. I also have a Classe DR-5 pre amp.

Just located a Krell KSA 300S amp local to me and toying with the idea of adding the Krell to replace the DR-8’s. Have not heard the Krell recently, but thought it would add more bass to the Thiels.

Does anyone have any thoughts on these two amps?

Andy - I can share information, but can't send drawings until Thiel Audio's bankruptcy is settled.

You are correct; the 2.7 and 3.7 have 3 separate drivers with electrical crossovers, unlike the 2.4 which is electrically 2-way plus the mechanical mid-tweeter xo.

There is no time compensation in those crossovers. The coincident alignment is achieved geometrically via the position of the coaxial midrange and tweeter.

Smoking good deal on those 2.4s. I’d almost buy ‘em just for the spare drivers. 10-12 hour drive for me during winter, no thanks.

jserio
Nice catch!  Good to see you again.  Happy Listening!

Great deal for someone in the Oregon area.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Thiel-2-4-Speakers/254044521077?hash=item3b263bc275:g:WDoAAOSwFZZcJ5p3:rk:6...

Hi Tom,

I was wondering if you would be willing to share the xover design of the CS2.7 or CS3.7.  I believe the mid+tweeter unit has separate xovers (vs. the 2.4 which is mechanical).  For the tweeter xover design, do you know if it has an electrical delay network to align the phase of the tweeter to the mid driver?  Or the phase alignment is done acoustically?

Thanks.

Sam, I had an ARC Ref 110 before my current Ref 150. Terrific match with the Thiels, even my hard to drive CS3.6s. I saw that you preferred the 8 ohm taps on the BAT VK55. I originally preferred the 4 ohm tap on my Ref 150, but I haven't switched back since I originally purchased the amp. What do you prefer with the Ref 110?

Samzx12 - thanks for the note re the improved sq with more tube power - I am greatly enjoying my first tube amp, also a vk-55, but know there’s something(s) better out there.  What are your thoughts about running two BATs in mono? 

Sam - sorry for the dense language. The insight that is somewhat obscure is on the listener-cognition side of the equation. Phase coherence lifts a veil that allows the listener to believe the sound is real, and therefore the sound is subjected to a much higher level of scrutiny. So the garbage sounds worse on Thiels. 

Tom I had to read your post a couple times (lack of technical knowledge) but I think I understand what you're saying.  In a nutshell Thiels need current  :)

Also the 2nd half of what you are saying makes perfect sense.  The quality of the source is critical.  Basically garbage in garbage out.  

Jafant I doubt I'll move up the BAT chain because they don't make a tube amp I can afford with higher power. Or at least I'm not aware of. 

Prof I am using a Audio Research Ref 110. Like your Premiers it really grips the speaker and brings it into focus.  It probably won't leave my house lol. Well ar least hopefully not.  

@samzx12

Which higher powered tube amp did you just try and how many watts?

I’ve long used my Conrad Johnson Premier 12 140w/side mono blocks and they seem to drive anything with grip and verve, Thiel 3.7 And 2.7s included.

I owned a 55 w CJ tube amp before those and the difference moving up in power and amp design to the Premier 12s was quite dramatic. Mostly in the sense of focus, density, punch, grip and sense of power.

Btw, why are there no options here to post photos and videos, IMHO not something that fits this subject and others on this forum.

holco
Thank You for sharing your video here.  Always a pleasure having you hands-on, DIY guys,  here as well.  Happy Listening!

samzx12
Thank You for talking about tube amp comparisons. Will you move up the B.A.T. Chain?  This is one brand that has been on my radar to demo for quite awhile now.  Happy Listening!

Did a video recording of my audio set, not the best recording in mono but just to get an idea ;)

https://youtu.be/xVTKm7MoWSA

Original song,
https://youtu.be/iIh2y5O8vH8

Sam, your experience is consistent with mine during 50 years with myriad amps and signal chains. More power, especially current, works better. One insight is that current lag induces phase lag. In most speakers phase lag is not audible, since phase is already compromised and the ear-brain is reconstructing - inferring the wave-form. But minimum phase transducers eliminate that fore brain engagement (because the wave-form is not phase compromised), and therefore any phase anomalies are much more apparent. Similarly holco's GD upgrade is more evident on Thiel (or other such as V'steen) minimum phase speakers.

I'm speaking from hard experience. Upstream transparency was the single most critical aspect of success or failure of Thiel auditions. The speaker always gets blamed for any musical failing. But if you think about it, the speaker is critically translating its input signal including phase response, which is why it can sound so good when the signal is right.

Tom thank you for the excellent advice.  Interesting thread no doubt. 

I will add this.  A local buddy let me borrow his higher power tube amp and it really woke up my 2.7.  He used it on 3.7 with success.  My BAT VK55 isn't a slouch for a 55 wpc tube amp however, the Thiels really need more power to punch out good bass notes. 

Yesterday I upgraded the NOS-11 (Pre/DAC) from Audio-GD to a Audio-GD Master-1 preamp and an Audio-GD R8 (R-2R Resistor Ladders DAC)

Great improvements across all areas!! also nice to experience that the CS-2.4 receives these upgrades with verve :-)

Happy (last) Friday of 2018- All.

beetlemaniaThank You for your dedication and hard work this year on the whole XO upgrade.  I am looking forward to a prototype or finished product.
Happy Holidays!

holco

Good to see you again.  Happy Holidays!

thielrulesMy pleasure.  Happy Listening!

Thanks jafant.

andy2
Good to see you again.  I must say that you are the first owner of Cary power amps that I have seen mated w/ a Thiel speaker.  Several owners out there are using and enjoying a Cary tubed pre-amp to excellent effect, highly regarded. Cary CD/SACD players as well.

Will you purchase a different tubed power amp?

Happy Listening!
 

thielrules

I hear that, it is easy to get caught up in an entanglement of Gear.
I travelled in heavy rotation from 2011 to late 2015. Found and purchased by loudspeakers in early 2016 and have not travelled abroad since then.
Good thing too as I had a few unexpected homeowners' financial obligations in 2017 and 2018. As much as I love Audio and Music, my home will always come first.  That said 2019 is looking very promising - I have (3) Audio operations in Atlanta (Hifi Buys Atlanta, The Audio Company and Wolfsong Audio) are long overdue for a visit.

Now, to address your query;
Yes, at 30W Class A operation, Accuphase, Luxman and Pass Labs are top-tier Audio companies. Contributor dhoff01 here endorses Accuphase power amp for his CS 3.7 loudspeakers. I have not had the aural pleasure of auditioning  any of these manufacturers to date. I have found a Pass Labs dealer/retailer (finally)  in central Florida that warrants a trip in Spring. Ayre is another hot contender that is enjoyed by a few Thiel owners.  Hope this information has been helpful.

Happy Listening!

Remember that if you are using lead solder to be very careful with smoke extraction - lead accumulates and causes brain and nerve damage. Thiel solder is 96-4 / silver-tin, but it is much harder to work than lead solder such as Cardas eutectic. You decide, but do be careful.

Andy - If you are replacing a few parts and they are accessible, you can snip the lead wires and twist your component leads to those stubs - and then solder.

@andy2 
Understand I am building completely new boards. When I finish, *everything* will be new from the terminal posts to the output wire to the drivers. Only the drivers and cabinet will be OEM.

That said, when I upgraded the resistors last May I took the boards out of the cabinet. I found that easier but another 2.4 owner replaced the coax caps with the boards in place. The PCBs are soldered from the bottom, so you at least need to unscrew the board from the cabinet even if you leave the input/output wires attached.