Thiel Owners

beetlemania
I see. I will combine a CD/SACD player which ever way I go.
I do not own any Vinyl. I wonder where the clipping point lies with Ayre separates? I will consider shooting out both integrated and separates on the next demo.  Keep up the excellent XO work!

Happy Listening!

@tomthiel That is very interesting and I look forward to reading your report. Do you imagine the technology will eventually extend to the other Thiel models or just those few with a slot port?

@jafant I have the stock resistors. I suspect the 6 dB gain version is for people with low gain phono setups. I have a TT but my cartridge and phono stage work well with my amp albeit the gain is plainly down compared to my DAC (and with hirez I rarely listen to vinyl anymore). Regardless, the stock version works well with my 2.4s.

brayeagle
I am patient as well. I had planned a Bryston audition during the holiday stretch, but the dealer/retailer (Engulf Audio) did not show? Onward and upward. Stay safe and warm.

Happy Listening!

beetlemania

Thank You for the hot tip. The reading tells us that a 301 ohm resistor can switch out to a 619K ohm resistor. Is this where the extra 6db of gain results? Have you made this particular change to your AX-5 Twenty?
I plan to consult Alan about this matter during my next visit.

Happy Listening!

Beetle - I have heard A-B comparisons only with Tannoy speakers in a good large room with decent sources. These demos were professional, not high-fi. I would not say there was any particularly tangible imaging involved. What everyone including myself heard was a cohesive solidity in the harmonic structure of the sound field - natural detail and realness entered the scene, akin to the proverbial lifting of the veil where none had been evident. I would call the effect extraordinary and surprising.

Within the month I expect to have a customized kit of materials to apply to the 1.6s for direct A-B comparison and SpectraFoo analysis in my studio.

Beetle - patents are in the works, so no substantive news yet. I am beta-developing the technology using the CS1.6 as my test mule. The 1.6 / 1.7 slotted port is unusual in its airflow dynamics. Ports care where they are placed in their enclosures. The 1.6 long slot side-steps some of those placement issues by being placed in the lower chamber at large. So its airflow dynamics are more complex than usual, since the broad placement creates a gradient of interface parameters with the enclosure resonances.

I can report first-hand that the slot works.
I can also report that the interface technology will improve it as well as improve speakers in general - a fluid dynamics solution for fluid dynamics problems.

Plenty more to tell when I can.

You guys facing inclement weather -stay safe and warm out there.

@tomthiel I can’t wait to hear your airflow technology. I’m wondering how that might modify image density.

@jafant Looks like either a qx-5 or dx-5 into an ax-5 will clip at about “40” on the indicator, assuming full output CD such as most rock recordings. Only a small difference between the models. This is for XLR connections. RCA will be more like “44”. This also assumes a stock AX-5. Apparently, there is a version with 6 dB gain resistors, so that will modify accordingly. Keep in mind this is not an exact science and other factors can influence the onset of clipping. 

Jim - please keep us apprised of how the 2.3s do for you. The original 2.3 coax was the pioneer coax. Do you know when its upgrade happened?

My original prototype Brazilian Rosewood O2s from 1976 we given to our parents as an early appreciation gift for their support. They are in storage at my youngest brother's house in Virginia; I'll get them this summer and, of course, soup them up a little. The O2 actually started the audiophile ball rolling. The O1 was a 10" 2-way Rock-n-Roll Boogie Machine with 3rd order slopes and huge magnets for high efficiency and the EQ for 30 Hz bass . . .  but not much finesse. Some early supporters asked if Jim could design something more refined, which became the O2 6.5" ported 2-way with second order slopes. Quite lovely for its day. I will apply the boundary-layer airflow technology under present development to the port and driver circumferences, add some absorption to the baffle to reduce diffraction and upgrade the passive components. And I bet we'll have a sweet little bookshelf monitor.

Thank you,
Tom

jafant,

I’m patiently waiting. :-) :-) :-)

Meanwhile,we’re awaiting for the polar vortex to hit us. (Forecast for minus 7 wind chill tomorrow.)
I grew up in the Sonoran Desert, where the two most-hated four-letter curse words were Cold and Snow.
George

@tomthiel. i also meant to thank you and pass on my admiration for the great work you and brother did. And condolences. So very happy to hear you are reinvigorated and moving the ball forward again - rebirth is possible !!!!

my understanding is they are factory supported updates w dual magnets and related xover changes. I take delivery sometime Mid February and will get you serial numbers, photos, then.

My brother still has a pair of 02 circa 1979 ish..running strong !!!!!!

best !

Jim

tomic601 - I would be most appreciative to learn the nature of the 2.3 upgrades. Beetlemania and I are working on the 2.4 and I have heard rumors that some folks have plugged in 2.4 drivers and XO to the 2.3 cabinet. If you have first-hand information about such an undertaking, it would help me assess the territory.

thosb

stevecham is a subwoofer reliable source, as is, John Ellison over on Audio Asylum.  Happy Listening!

pops 

my pleasure. We know that Classe' is a favorite match with Thiel speakers.  Meridian remains a digital favorite among many Audiophiles at large.  Happy Listening!

brayeagle

I have not forgot about you. I am still attempting to procure a Bryston 4B3 audition with a dealer/retailer north of Atlanta. Hope you are well today and enjoying your system. Stay tuned.

Happy Listening!

tomic601
Good to see you here again. I look forward in reading more contributions from you soon.  Happy Listening!

Thank You! Panel. It was a very good day indeed. The factor that impressed me most - Alan did not down-sell the Ayre integrated.
On the other hand, Alan did not try to up-sell the regular separates nor Twenty separates for a substantial monetary margin. We all know this is a rarity among dealers/retailers. A few of you guys have contacted me via PM to report a previous connection with Mr. Alan Jones going way back, in some instances. One thing is certain, this gentleman knows Thiel Audio loudspeakers.

Happy Listening!

also, appreciate the review of Alan’s great HiFi Buys in Atlanta. I have over the years bought a bunch of gear there and have always been spoiled by him and his team. 
best

Jim

my compliments on this most excellent, civil and collaborative thread ! Many thanks Jafant.

I am working a trade for a pair of 2.3 with some updated drivers ( mid/tweeter and xover ) , dont have them as yet but will post when I do. I worked at a Thiel dealer in late 70’s early 80’s ( Audio Connection Huron, Ohio ) so I certainly appreciate the brand, history and especially Jim T and his engineering and principle driven approach. I am certain I met Jim while at CES in Chicago, probably at the Drake.
While I am a big Vandersteen fan, I do look forward to having a pair of Thiel in the arsenal !

Jim

jafant - nice review and hope to read several more from you!

thanks stevecham, you're making me a believer!

Cool Jafant - sounds like a great day!  I still have my Classe CA200 amp and meridian Digital player I bought from HiFi Buys around 22 years ago when I lived there!

Pretty sure I once heard a V-1 with the CS7.2, no issues just music. CS5 I’ve not heard ever but agree that most Ayre amps probably not be the best match. The “40” on the indicator is for my specific combo of amp and source! I can probably calculate the typical clipping level for the combo you have below.

beetlemania

my pleasure. I am really looking forward to the next session with an Ayre spinner. Alan did remark that any Ayre amp would not mate well to a Thiel CS5 nor 7.2 speaker. Much more current is required for those models specifically. I will try to get closer to "40" during next demo.
I rather enjoyed the presentation and sound yesterday.

Happy Listening!

@jafant glad you got to hear that Ayre stack. My combo of AX-5 and QB-9 will result in clipping around a “40” on the volume indicator (max 46, 1.5 dB steps). My room is 18x19 with a vaulted ceiling and two large openings on the rear wall. I listen at indicated 20-24 for folk and such, maybe 26-28 for orchestral, and 28-32 for rock. Much more than that becomes too loud for my preference. I have not experienced any strain at any level, just beautiful music. 

stevecham
Thank You for citing your power amp history- that is quite the list!
No doubt that PS Audio is making tremendous strides in many areas of Audio reproduction. Ask ronkent , as he is our resident PS Audio expert.

Happy Listening!

beetlemania
this one is for you my Audiophile friend. Today, I spent a beautiful sunny afternoon in Buckhead Atlanta, visiting HiFi Buys. Owner Alan Jones has been in audio retail for 25 years and counting. In fact, he was the southeast Thiel Audio dealer/retailer until Mr. Jim Thiel's passing.
Alan has a very nice photo with Jim in his office. I have known of his excellent reputation from his days of operating Audio Alternative.
I wanted to audition Ayre electronics, which has been on my short list, for many years. I am glad that I waited because the current operation has much better sound rooms than the older establishment per Alan.
Specifically, the Ayre AX-5 Twenty peaked my interest. The rest of the system- Monitor Audio PL100 speakers, Ayre QX-5 Twenty digital hub, AudioQuest Niagara 5000 power conditioner (much needed in downtown Atlanta), Audioquest Hurricane and Tornado PC, Audioquest Castle Rock  72V SP, and Audioquest XLR 72V IC (green connectors thus I did not see the model name). 
No physical cd/sacd player  on-hand for this demo, although my next audition will include an Ayre DX-5, so I can really dial-in the combo. The DX-5 is the only spinner where Ayre stocks  spare critical parts (drives/laser assemblies/transports)  per the late Charles Hansen.
Now, the fun begins. Selections via ROON and Tidal included my reference title Jamie Cullum 'Twentysomething', various Ben Harper, Daft Punk, Kate Bush, New Order and The Rolling Stones 'Get Your Ya Ya's Out'.  The combination of gear and speakers was excellent. I was pleasantly surprised by the full range sound of the MA monitor speakers.
Excellent air, instrument separation, little to no distortion, was appreciated. Excellent bass and treble extension heard. The system was slightly warm of neutral all around. I detected zero dry, lean nor thin characteristics all around. Overall, an excellent presentation.
Today's goal was to evaluate the Ayre Integrated amp on a first time demo. I look forward to the next installment with Ayre's own spinner to compliment my massive cd/sacd collection. 
Alan concurred that Ayre is a sonic match for Thiel Audio loudspeakers.
Further, he stated that I could not go wrong with an integrated or separates from a current/power output perspective. Distance was around 8 feet from set up and volume was set to 30 (plenty loud for close proximity).

Happy Listening!

As some may recall, I was outspoken and against Class D amps for many years, having heard only a pair of Rotel monoblocks at a local dealer about 13 years ago. My position was that there was no way a switching design could outperform Class A and A/B designs due to all that high frequency noise. Fast forward to late 2018...

I have owned amps (integrated, stereo and monoblocks) by conrad johnson (tubed and solid state), Parasound, Bryston, Krell, Musical Fidelity, Denon, Marantz, NAD and most recently, Manley Labs. After reading about PS Audio’s Stellar line, and in need of a dedicated preamp as I was downsizing, I decided to take them up on their trade-in and home trial offer and I am so very glad I did. The M700s "woke" up my Thiels in a way no other amps ever have. I know, that’s quite a statement, but I have had several of my audio buds come over for a listen. They were all familiar with my other amps through my Thiels. All said by far the best they’d heard. It’s not so much the power and oomph they provide, indeed they’ve got that, and certainly the Krell FPB 400cx had it, but it’s the quality of the music they produce. I don’t listen loudly anymore, typically peaking in the low 80s SPL by my ratshack meter. These sound like tubes, and I know what tubes sound like, but they are also very micro and macro dynamically revealing, very sweet once broken in, and best of all, I have never heard so much front to back and left/right resolution. I’m also a musician, and I have never heard in any of my systems, acoustic guitar that sounds like it’s in the room like that. If this is a good as it gets from here until the end, I’m totally satisified. There is zero noise, even with my ear up to the tweeters at a level that would be deafening. By far the highest value purchase I’ve ever made. Same with the Gain Cell DAC preamp. PS Audio absolutely rocks! Anyone who is in the market for a preamp/DAC, stereo amp or monoblocks really should consider their home trial offer. I’ll bet VERY few get sent back.

Just checked hifishark for the thiel integrator...boy they don't come on the market very often!

stevecham - can you please elaborate on your choice of amps?  I am interested in the Stellar M700s and wondering how they sound compared to other amps you have used with the Thiels? Thanks ahead of time!

@pwhinson Thiel's subwoofers with an integrator is absolutely magical. Makes the 2.4's sound like massive speakers while cleaning everything a notch or two

stevecham
Good to see you here. Thank You for chiming in on the subwoofer query.
Audioquest is a sonic match for Thiel loudspeakers. Hope you are well today and enjoying the music on your system.

Happy Listening!

pwhinson
Good to see you again. Hope you are well and enjoying your system today. A few members of the Panel are using additional sub(s) to excellent results. Guys chime in here.

Happy Listening!

Yes!!!

Two SVS SB2000 subs placed just inside the 2.4s, lined in from PS Audio Stellar Gain Cell DAC, built-in crossovers on subs set to ~60 Hz, phase set at 12 o'clock, volume at 12 0'clock, and running the 2.4s at full bandwidth via balanced ICs to a pair of Stellar M700s with Audioquest CV8 speaker cables.

Amazing!

Has anyone successfully integrated a subwoofer (or pair of subs) with the 2.4's (or other Thiels)?  How?  Electronic crossover?  Which one?  Which subs?

Happy Friday- All.

Good thing. Between early reconnaissance, replacing the resistors, and the more recent work I’ve probably taken the radiators off 20+ times. There is a trick to it. Elsewhere I posted instructions from Rob Gillum.

Thanks.  That makes me feel much better trying to work on the xovers.

@andy2 my 2.4s have wood inserts for all the driver screws including the radiator. Good thing. Between early reconnaissance, replacing the resistors, and the more recent work I’ve probably taken the radiators off 20+ times. There is a trick to it. Elsewhere I posted instructions from Rob Gillum.

tomthiel
Thank You for the kind words. I, for one, am glad that you found us.
Once your end of the XO project reaches its final configuration, I look forward in meeting you later this year. Keep up the outstanding work!

Happy Listening!

For the passive radiator, how solid are the threads on the screws?  How many times do you think they can be removed?  Ideally I guess you only need to remove only once but it would be nice to have a bit of margin in case of errors.

Pops - I have not yet made serious direct comparisons, but the two driver scenarios both have trade-offs.

The 3.6 vertical stack makes the listener vertical ear position more critical, the constructive and destructive lobing affects the frequency response. But, each driver gets a controlled wave launch from the stationary baffle.

The CS6 along with the 2.3 and up and 3.7, etc. with the coincident driver greatly solves the first problem. The tweeter is where it is designed to be regardless of the listener position. But, the tweeter sees the midrange cone as its wave launch. Even though its cone shape is engineered as a tweeter wave-guide, that cone is nonetheless moving. I don't really know whether that launch is more or less problematic or just different. I know that the coincident PowerPoints are uncannily integrated. And I also know that the CS2.2 tweeter (3.6 and 5) sounds different and lovely.

Who knows? I hope that by this time next year we will all know more.

Pops - It's interesting that the CS6 has not come up in conversation or as an upgrade candidate. I learned that there was an internally designated CS6.1 with an upgraded midrange (?) and XO. Rob might know what you have. And I, of course, would be interested in what you find out.

Thiel lovers and leaders, I just swapped out my C6 for my beloved 3.6 for fun.  I do this on occasion.  I am retired so I can play with the system when I have the urge.

What a different animal!  Just so transparent and open, not that the 6 is a slouch and once again confirms my preference to the driver scheme in the 3.6.

Keep up the good work Tom and Team Thiel!  Reading and following with great interest as I will no doubt need to update my XO’s at some point.  

Ken - The CS5i is for Improved. The 3 bass drivers were re-engineered and the two low woofers were loaded with a central plug rather than damping mats. Crossover changes also smoothed things out in the lower midrange and reduced the upper frequency impedance rise for an easier electrical load. At the time there was an upgrade kit. Rob reports that the CS5i has virtually zero problems in the field. With proper amplification to drive the 2-ohm bass load, and a room big enough for proper integration, the CS5i can be wonderful.

The CS5 tweeter was our first completely in-house design with fancy motor tricks and an engineered aluminum dome - on the shoulders of new technologies first developed and tried in the CS1.2 tweeter. (The CS1 series became a trial horse for new technologies, much as the CS2 series became a trickle-down beneficiary of upper-end solutions. The late 80s is when our co-development relationship with Vifa flowered which served both of our companies very well for over a decade. We conscripted the CS5 tweeter for the CS2.2 and 3.6 for a very productive R&D cycle.

JA - I want to express my appreciation for the group you have assembled here and its productive and cooperative form of engagement. Life is an interesting journey indeed and some gathering of energy such as here can change its course. As most people know at some level, family business is a peculiar beast; rarely is it simple. This group has provided a focus for me to re-approach unfinished business. I thank you all for being here.

Beetle - what a pleasure it has been to have you behind the curtain, questioning, researching, sharing . . . as we have made progress in this delicate matter of re-imagining this product statement of another person and circumstance - especially one's deceased brother. I am pleased with our progress and our results and now approach my own modifications and further investigation with the concrete knowledge and feedback that you have provided. Onward.

Andy - I wish to honor the classic Thiel naming system where a new numbered generation is accompanied by new drivers, generally all of them and usually a new cabinet - a new product on the shoulders of its forebears. Beetle's product remains firmly a CS2.4 with a twist allowed by changing circumstances of time. I don't know what to call these modifications and I welcome all ideas. The working IDs have been Level 1, 2, 3, etc. Beetle's upgrade is at level 3. Functional but oh so prosaic.

All - the presence of an audience here has encouraged me to devote focused time and resources to this project which simply would not have otherwise happened. This group has produced a pair of CS3.6s and an SS1 and SW1 and another SW1 on the way. I'm picking up a pair of CS1.6s this Sunday and have bought a pair of beater MCS1s for research and parts - these pieces in addition to the 4 PowerPoints which were motivated by the project. And my design studio now has a fairly well tricked out electronics and measuring nook for the ongoing work speaker. And it all feels right. Thank you all.

  

beetlemaniaThank You for the update. I am looking forward to the final configuration.Keep up the outstanding work!
Happy Listening!