Thiel Owners

rosami,

I don't have any experience with Naim cables, but you could be right about the Thiels needing different speaker cables to perform their best. I'm still using Straight Wire Encore cables from the 1990's because I know they're a good match for my 2.2's. Several weeks back, I spoke to Jerry Willsie at Straight Wire about my Encore cables, and he said they were still a great match for my Thiels. In fact, he said he had just recommended a version of the Encore to Kathy Gornik (one of the original Thiel founders) for her Thiels. 

In your situation, you may want to use the lending library at the Cable Company to try a few different speaker cables. Or you could try a cable maker that has a 30 or 60-day free return policy. Tom Thiel has recommended Morrow cables. Ronkent has recommended Cardas Clear Reflection with his system. Unfortunately, speaker cables can't be selected based on the performance of interconnects of the same brand since cables typically require a different design to function well with speakers.

Good luck in your search!

jafant,

I didn't think that the Cardas cables had underlying silver wire. Did you see that someplace?

sdl4

Thank You for posting your impressions/thoughts of the Cardas Clear Cygnus. I looked over the current offerings and thought about how the underlying silver cabling is going to sound (transparently) on Thiel loudspeakers?  I, too, enjoy cabling that brings out shimmer on cymbals.
Brushes on drum heads via Jazz recordings appeals to my aural experience as well. I want it so real that I could touch the skins myself.

Keep auditioning and reporting your findings here.
Happy Listening!

arniespin
Good to see you here again. Thank You for the update and implementation of REL subwoofer(s) matched to your CS 3.7 loudspeakers.  What other gear including cabling rounds out the system?

Happy Listening!

hi Rosami,   i had the same issue with a pair of 2.4's years ago.  i was surprised how much i could tighten them.  have heard,  though i have not tried it, that brass screws are the best material to use.  I am a big user of Mapleshade products and brass is one of their big things

A Tweaking Suggestion...
I have been checking out and critically evaluating my newly-purchased CS2.4s the last few weeks. They are 2007 production so- as I do with any new purchase - I’ve been checking them out very carefully. 
I decided to check the tightness of the screws holding the drivers - and was surprised to find that the woofer and passive radiator screws were really loose. I don’t believe they were ever tightened since they were manufactured 20 years ago. 
Big improvement after tightening all the bolts! If you haven’t checked yours in awhile I’d strongly suggest doing so. 

Sdl4
I’ve also read about the Iconoclast speaker cables and would also be interested in hearing from anyone about them.
After I had my Naim NAP300 amp updated (DR update) my system has been sounding hard and somewhat strident with my newly-purchased CS2.4s (they’re 2007 production). I’m thinking my current NAIM NACA5 speaker cables may no longer be a good match. I’m looking for a detailed but more relaxed cable and have no idea whether the new Iconoclast cables would be a good match. 
I’ve also heard that Tributary makes a good sounding, inexpensive well designed speaker cable and have also heard good things about Chord speaker cable. 
Has anyone had any experience with any of those cables?
Thanks. 

Congrats to all you 3.7 owners! I'm still hanging in there with my 2.2's, which have become more expressive and "alive" since I started powering them with PS Audio M700 monoblocks. My search for new interconnects has also shown me that the 2.2's can take on several different personalities depending on the cables being used with them.

I had been considering trying a REL or Thiel subwoofer with my speakers, but I'm now leaning against that option after appreciating the positive effects of my recent amp upgrade. I already have a Thiel SS1 sub that is blended to five Powerpoint 1.2's via a Thiel 5-channel crossover in my HT system, so I know how well that sub can blend with other speakers. However, I also really value the naturalness of having the 2.2's cover the low frequencies without adding crossovers and dividing up the bass among more drivers. If I did add a sub or two, I would definitely do it via high-level connections (like the REL or Thiel approach). The fact that my 2.2's already have decent bass and I don't listen to music with a lot of content below 30Hz makes a sub less of a necessity for me. 

tomthiel,

Thanks for the suggestion about Morrow interconnects. I'll definitely look into them. I'm pretty far down the Cardas path at this point, but options are always a good thing.

I've also been interested in the Iconoclast cables that are manufactured by Belkin and marketed as an audiophile product through Blue Jeans Cables. I've never heard them, but I've read very positive comments about them.

Hi Ron, I had a pair of REL Storm III’s and was never able to really seamlessly integrate them with the Thiels. They certainly went LOW, but always felt they blurred a bit of the bottom end detail... Perhaps because they are a ported design. Also, at 14x16 my space is small enough that the 3.7s on their own really pressurize the room well. 

hi Arnie,   i told him the same thing.   I about had a heart attack when i first played mine as they had almost no hours on them and they sounded terrible.  the 2.7's just smoked them.  but after about 200 hours they kicked in and now they are stunning.  curious as to which REL you had.  i am running a single SHO/5 and i find it really benefits my system a great deal.  Enough so that i am considering a second one. 

Congrats bighempin! The 3.7s are truly amazing! After having many different speakers in my room, these are here to stay. I did try them with a few cables and settled on a nice beefy Straitwire. I was also running a pair of REL subs with them for a little bit, and ended up deciding I liked them better without the subs. Depending on your amp, the 3.7s can produce some really deep and dynamic and nimble bass.

Also, when I first got mine they had very few hours on them and I was not entirely happy with their sound. They actually took several hundred hours of play till they reached their full sonic potential! 🙌 So, my advice is to be patient and give them ample time to fully “burn-in”, before making other major system changes.

congrats bighempin!

I had the 3.7s for a few years and when I tried to replace them I listened to a long list of new speakers. I didn’t find anything that could out-compete the 3.7s.

Whats up everyone? I pick up my mint in the box 3.7s a week from Monday. I am so excited I can't stand it. I am currently researching and getting my cables together and got a really good head start thanks to RonKent, thanks again. I really appreciate the recent cable banter above, thank you all, very informative.

I have also been day dreaming about future upgrades and an email from RonKent got me thinking about and reading about sub woofers. I was just curious what the general consensus on subs was among Thiel owners, 3.7 owners in particular. How many of you 3.7 owners out there include a sub in your setup? Thanks

sdl4 - an outsider you might consider is Morrow. I ended up outfitting my studio with Morrow ICs and speaker runs. My comparisons weren't terribly extensive, but I did read widely and compare against some old Kimber, Straightwire, OCOS, Mogami, MIT, Magnum, and Audioquest, all from the 1980s. I landed at Morrow's "4" series as their cost-effective sweet spot. Morrow direct markets with periodic discount sales and a generous return policy.
If you do give them a try, or if anyone else here has tried Morrow, I am interested in your reports. To my ear it meets your "relaxed, detailed and natural" criteria at a modest price.

ronkent,

I agree about the need for cable burn-in. The Clear Sky IC's I have were burned in by the dealer before I received them.

I would be very pleased to have a cable in my system that was "relaxed," "detailed," and "natural" sounding (as you described the Clear Reflection in your system).

pops,

Thanks for the additional info on the MIT EVO's! Your description sounds great, though they are somewhat expensive - at least in terms of what I'm used to. Finding the balance between musical and resolving seems to be the holy grail of cable design, and the EVO's seem to achieve that in your system.  

Sld4,

The EVO’s have no sonic signature, nothing gets in the way of the music.  MIT has done a good job with the heritage series with trickledown technology from their megabuck cables.

They have bridged the gap between musical and resolving.  I have used lots of MIT cables in the past, the EVO 2’s are the best I’ve had in my system.  

They are expensive however as MIT has never been bashful with their price/marketing leadership position.  Their heritage series at least offers a good taste of their top cables at somewhat affordable prices.  

remember to let them burn in before making a serious evaluation.  i like the Clear Reflection a lot but did not evaluate others as my friend Bob did that for me.  I was using Analysis Plus and they were good but these seemed very relaxed and detailed and natural sounding. 

jafant,

I've been reading some great comments about the Clear Beyond interconnects, but the price of a pair of 1m ICs is well beyond my budget ($3,750 retail). I've also heard positives about the Clear Cygnus, which uses some of the Clear Beyond's design principles in a more economical version ($790 retail for 1m pair). Between the Cygnus and and the Beyond is the Clear ($2,020 per 1m pair) and the Clear Reflection ($1,150 per 1m pair). The least expensive IC in the Clear series is the Clear Sky ($490 per 1m pair). I'm trying the Sky in my system right now, and it's pretty transparent so I'm noticing more detail than I'm used to. However, it does sound a bit bright and harsh on some recordings, and it also seems a little thin sounding because there seems to be greater emphasis on the high frequencies than the lower frequencies. I'm liking the shimmer on cymbals, but not the sibilance on some vocals. I may have to spend more money to get a little more fullness and naturalness on voices. The Clear Reflection may be my best option, but the Clear Cygnus may be a possibility if it has the musicality that Cardas claims.    

pops,

It's been several decades since I last listened to any MIT cables. It looks like there aren't a lot of inexpensive options, even in the Heritage series. I'm kind of wary of the little electronic boxes that adjust the electrical characteristics of the cables, but they must do something positive or MIT wouldn't use them. Do the EVO 2 interconnects have a particular sonic signature?

ronkent,

Thanks for the helpful info! The Clear Reflection is more expensive than I planned to spend, but I might have to expand my budget if these are really great cables. I only need one pair of them for now, so that helps things stay halfway affordable. Does the Clear Reflection have a definite sonic signature or display any specific characteristics that tend to stand out compared to other ICs you've heard in your system?

@sdl4 MIT is offering a free trial of their heritage series which has 6 variants at different price points.  I have been using a loom of EVO 2 in my system which include Thiel CS6.  

sdl4:  interesting that you should ask about ICs.  I have 3.7's and an all PS system with the BHK and ted smith gear.   i am not much on shoot outs but i have a friend who has the same system and did this pretty comprehensively and ended up with the Cardas Clear Reflection.  his comment to me "I auditioned 5 or 6 cables in that $1200 to $3,000 price range for 1m interconnects and to me I really liked not only the clarity but also the tonal balance on this particular cable the best. I am running it between all my components. I don't think you could go wrong with it. You may want to look around to see if you could find a used one pair-they pop up from time to time."   i am now using them between pre and amp and between DSD and pre.   really like them

Happy Friday - All.

sdl4
Thank You for the update. Good to see you here again. I will conduct a few shoot-out(s) myself in the Fall.  Happy Listening!

jafant,

You asked yesterday about about any cable shoot-outs going on, and I'm still in the middle of some testing to find a balanced 1m interconnect to use between my PS Audio Stellar preamp and M700 amps. I'm using the Stellar gear to power my Thiel 2.2 speakers.

After some testing last month with ICs on loan from the Cable Company, I preferred the Cardas Parsec over the Shunyata Venom or the Synergistic Level 2 Core. The Parsec had a good blend of transparency and warmth, while the Shunyata was forgiving and somewhat veiled and the Synergistic was too bright and fatiguing in my system. Unfortunately, the Parsec is out of stock right now, so I'm considering other options in the middle range of the Cardas line of ICs.

Have any Thiel owners had experience with the Cardas Clear Sky, Clear Cygnus, or Clear Reflection ICs? I'm looking for a cable that has reasonable transparency without being bright, a touch of warmth without straying too far from neutral, and solid bass that has impact without being boomy. Above all, I want a cable that is musical and non-fatiguing when used in my Thiel-Stellar system. Any thoughts that might be helpful in my cable quest?

tomthiel
Absolutely! I will leave this wonderful opportunity to you and the other DIY guys here. Thank You for citing the first price of beetlemania 's work.I am excited and looking forward to the next offered XO upgrade with corresponding price.  Feel free to list the cost between different critical parts as progression evolves.

Happy Listening!

Guys - we have learned enough to repeat the successful upgrade that Beetle performed. But we have not yet approached the comparative analysis to find cost-effective performance points. Beetle-level parts cost would exceed $1K, and parts cost is not the whole job. So I believe more work is in order.

beetlemania
Thank You for the CS 3.7 XO network analysis. We have several owners of that model here that may want an upgrade once a working prototype is established.  Hope your Spring in Utah is going well.
Happy Listening!

thanks Beetle,   and i am definitely less adventurous.   I think that ultimately if there is an outboard crossover where we just hook the speaker cables to it and then wire right to the drivers,  that would be something i could do.  but they do sound great and part of me is afraid to tinker with them.  you do not live in NC by any chance :)

The CS3.7 XO pic I’ve seen shows good coils but sandcast resistors and CYC MKT caps. The drivers are probably the best ever from Jim Thiel (ie, some of the best ever from any manufacturer) but the passive parts quality is wanting, IMO. If I had 3.7s I would certainly replace the resistors with Mills MRAs which are cost effective, high reward/low risk. Replacing the caps *might* be more risky but I would probably do that, too. There is a LOT of capacitance on that board, so might have to go outboard if replacing everything including the big electrolytics. I would start with the tweeter and midrange caps.

That said, waiting for Tom Thiel’s solution is probably advisable for the less adventuresome.

ronkent
Absolutely!  Lately, the thread has been flabbergasted by all of this cross-over (XO) and driver reinstatement/replacement talk (of course this is perfectly fine and fitting). I wanted to circle back around to anyone here changed or swapped out any Gear? Any Cabling shoot-out(s) going on among you guys?

Happy Listening!

Ron - your 3.7s are State of Thiel Art and I have plenty to learn before claiming to improve them. But, I already am generating ideas.

HI TOM,   owning 3.7's means i will not see any updates for years but it is fantastic what you are doing.  Peace Bro

tomthiel
Thank You for your continued hard work and resourcefulness regarding our 3.5 owners.  I sent a PM as well. Hope that you are well today and enjoying good music.  Happy Listening!

Rules - my concern is to thoroughly investigate the parameters and then compensate as necessary. I will develop the Thiele-Small parameters of the old and new drivers to judge how the changes interact with the crossover. Furthermore, since first-order crossovers utilize the midrange over a very broad range, the exact placement and shape of the response anomalies are important. The new crossover must match the response profile of the new driver.
All that said, Rob has been shopping for a drop-in replacement and this driver has been recommended to him by knowledgeable sources. Power disparity would matter - 30 watts raises questions, but the 10F is our best present solution. My job is to subject it to further scrutiny.

Tom, the specs look very similar except for the power rating of the 10F, which is at 30 Watt. Any concerns about this? I believe the current mid range was rated at 150 Watt.

bluetone
Thank You for the tidbit for Tom and others interested in the 3.5 model.Happy Listening!

I am modeling the old drivers for comparison and compensation in the replacement drivers for their Renaissance-life.

bluetone -  the 3.5 drivers and crossovers would be helpful for my modeling efforts. I would offer them for further use once I am finished with them. I also snagged some CS3 drivers and EQ on ebay, and intend to create an update strategy for all versions of CS3 and 3.5 to better than new functioning. 
If applicable, please PM me to arrange shipping. Thanks. 

Another tidbit of information.  As I mentioned, Rob told me this was the last pair of 3.5 mids he can do.  Moving forward, here is his response.  " From this point going forward, I will be replacing the CS3.5 mid with the Scan Speak 10F-8424G. Along with a custom adapter plate, and trim ring, it will be available soon."
He said this Scan Speak has the closest specs to the original Scan Speak

How cool
people helping people :-)

Dinopau17, you got it.  Messaged you...

Bluetone 
I desperately need the tweeter, mine being not working if you could ship at my expense I would greatly appreciate it.
Please let me know.

bluetone
Good to see you again. Hope you are well today. Thank You for providing an update for other 3.5 owners here and citing your experience with Rob at CSS.  I know Tom will do his finest in analyzing your drivers.  Keep us posted on latest developments.
Happy Listening!

Hello all, I've been out for a while but I wanted to give you an update on my 3.5 mids.  Rob has completed the rebuild (he says the last he is able to do) and has shipped them off to Tom Thiel for analysis.  Hopefully this effort will yield a suitable solution for aging 3.5s.  BTW, due to the generosity of a fellow Audiogon'r, I have the woofers, tweeters and crossovers from a parted out 3.5.  I'm using the mids to replace the Scanspeak mids that came with my 3.5s.  In the spirit of the generosity bestowed upon me, I'm willing to help other 3.5 owners that need a replacement driver (woofer or tweeter) for the cost of shipping only.  The crossover is available as well, I might want to see if it would be of any use to Tom T as he analyzes the 3.5 for possible upgrades.  

Thielrules will be talking about my speakers to Rob sometimes this week or next; he has to fix his two midrages too so I will be waiting for him. I believe the midrange could be repaired, as for the tweeter it looks harder to fix it when it is blown looking on comments on the web....