@jthifi, excellent. Between Tom Thiel with Thiel’s and Jan Soderberg with Threshold’s; you couldn’t be in better hands.
Thiel Owners
Guys-
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
13,549 responses Add your response
unsound, tomthiel, jafant - thanks for all the input, it is very helpful and much appreciated. unsound, Coincidentally, while digging through some old threads about Threshold amps on the audiogon forum I came across Jon Soderberg's name (I think it was a thread you were part of) and I subsequently emailed him with a few questions. |
coincident driver takes the compromise out of nearfield listening. When I have the house to myself for the evening, I pull the coffee table out and sit on a wooden low back chair in front of my couch. I am unable to hear deleterious effects from the coffee table (ie, reflections) but this chair puts my ears probably 3-4” lower and, maybe, 7’ from the speakers. I get great sound from my “normal” position (ears an inch or two below tweeter axis and 8.5-9’ away) but this “nearfield” position is intoxicatingly immediate and engaging. From trials bringing the couch away from the rear wall and closer to the speakers, I think the lower position is more responsible for improved SQ but being closer seems to help, also.
I believe that what is causing the page to stretch horizontally, at least when viewed in Firefox, is the long URL in Unsound’s post dated 4-3-2019 at 12:32 p.m. EDT. Yes, the problem seems to be the ebay link in that post and it shows in Firefox but not Safari. |
jthifi - don't you love it when he talks that way?I am referring to a Stasis design, and not the original A series. Stasis was the dynamic bias which has morphed and grown throughout Nelson's career. unsound - I now may remember that we used a 400e at Thiel, but it's all a little fuzzy around the edges. Nonetheless, Pass is an extraordinary designer and any piece of his historical progress seems valid to me. |
@JTHIFI, those Thresholds were over engineered and built to the most conservative and highest standards, i.e. the transistors are operating at only 20% of rated output. BTW, I seem to notice the price of these old Thresholds not trending down, but instead up. |
tomthiel- thank you for your continued input about Pass designs, it is very helpful. By chance prior to reading your post, I stumbled across the firstwatt.com website. It was fun to connect some dots between your comments and Nelson Pass. unsound- thank you for bringing to my attention the re-listing on eBay of the S300. I appreciate your advice on what to ask and certainly plan on doing my due diligence. I must admit I am a bit hesitant to purchase something this old. I have only once ventured into the used audio equipment market when I purchased a pair of KEF Q900 speakers (from a long-standing local Audiogon member with impeccable ratings) so I felt pretty confident about what I was getting. |
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Hello Paco - difficult room. Some setup thoughts from my experience: Phase-time coherence introduces problems not heard in normal time-challenged speakers. Your ear-brain strives to make sense of the signal. In non-coincident driver Thiels, the required distance of 8'+ enabled the 3 signals to arrive at the same time via finding the proper vertical position for integration. That serious business is addressed by the coincident driver which solves the mid-tweeter issue, which is the more critical range. Lower frequency waves are so much longer and the ear so much less critical in the bass that they are quite forgiving. So you can sit as close as you want and tilt the speakers as needed. I have a pet bias for first reflections being very important. The time-correct rendering from Thiels allows your ear to differentiate between direct and reflected sound to a much higher degree than normal speakers require. In round numbers, there is a threshold for arrival transients at about 5 milliseconds. Shorter times try to conflate the reflected sound with the direct sound for a confusing slur. Longer times allow the ear to identify the reflected component as distinct - processing it as an understandable reflection, since your eyes know there is a wall behind or next to your speaker. The side-wall reflection can be readily absorbed or diffracted due to the ricochet pattern . However, the front-wall / behind the speakers is far more difficult due to its large flat-plane pattern. The absorption required to kill the reflected wave would make the room very dead. I strongly recommend having at least 2.5' behind the speaker (x2 for the wave to reach the speaker and continue forward,) more is better. Low ceilings present problems. Apply the first-reflection strategy to a greater degree. The psyche distrusts overhead anomalies and that ceiling bounce introduces anxiety in addition to inflating the mid-bass frequency response. In musical terms frequency response is extremely important for timbre and identification. But in psychological terms FR is merely academic. First rule: get cozy and safe in your listening environment. The standing waves between floor and ceiling present problems. I suggest good carpet. Organic hair underpad outperforms any of the plastic foams in spades. Wool carpet likewise outperforms, damping more than an octave lower than synthetics. Alternatively I get good results with rubber-backed commercial carpet tiles with as much thickness and texture as you can stand. As stated above, near-field listening seriously minimizes room issues. And the x.7 coincident driver takes the compromise out of nearfield listening. I think that your difficult room cries out for analysis and mitigation. Guys here know of apps and products to address room issues. Good luck. Happy listening. |
Out of curiosity, is anyone else getting weird stretched-width formatting for this page of the thread? I believe that what is causing the page to stretch horizontally, at least when viewed in Firefox, is the long URL in Unsound’s post dated 4-3-2019 at 12:32 p.m. EDT. I’ve seen that happen in the past in other threads, and in at least one such case the poster subsequently deleted the post and things went back to normal. On my system the issue does not appear with Microsoft Edge (which wraps the URL into many lines, so that each line is not any longer than usual), but does appear with Firefox. My practice when providing a lengthy url in a post is to put it "under" a short piece of text, like this. Which can be done using the "Insert URL" button that is above the response box, after selecting the text under which the URL should be inserted. Regards, -- Al |
Hi all, yes the page suddenly stretched out for no reason. thought it was my computer. Paco, may i suggest something better than spikes. I have used the brass feet from Mapleshade to much better effect, and also use the GAIA speaker feet. I realize that i sit a little closer than Thiel has recommended, but i have tried many positions and it seems to work. I had the national sales manager and set up guru, Trent Suggs from REL, here about 6 months ago and he agreed that the placement of everything including me, was about right. Paco, here is a link to some info that might help as it sure helped me many years ago. look under room placement and speaker setup. http://www.mapleshadestore.com/freeupgrades.php. Having back-up drivers is really smart but i only keep the mid/tweeter here as in all of my 30 plus years of using Thiels, I have never had a problem with the lower drivers and up until the 2.7's only lost one mid in my 2.2's |
For their CS models Thiel suggested a minimum of 8’ from speaker to listener for proper driver intergration and time alignment, with a minimum of 1’ and ideally 3’-3.5’ and preferably even more from back of cabinet to wall and a minimum 3’ and preferable 5’ or more from sidewalls/corners in a forward firing equilateal triangle as a starting point for most of their loudspeakers. Thiel measured their speakers from a distance of 3 meters (just shy of 10’). The single co-axial driver models have some different placement reccomendations. |
jafant and ronkent, Thx for the welcome. ronkent, The speakers are 6'8" apart cabinet to cabinet. I'm going to try moving about 8' away. I put them on spikes yesterday which seemed to improve the sound...tweeters are now at or slightly above ear level...helped a bit but not quite there. I've also asked Rob for prices..roughly about $1000 for a complete set for 1 speaker. May get 2 sets just in case if I can improve the sound. prof, not just you. I had the same issue using Firefox. Format looks right on Safari. Strange. |
hi Paco and welcome. i have owned Thiel speakers since 1985 and have had four sets of the two series ending with the 2.7's. Now have the 3.7's. However for the past 20 years or so, regardless of speaker, i have been sitting in the same spot. you did not mention how far apart you have your speakers but i have mine about 3.5 feet from the back wall and they are roughly 9' apart from tweeter to tweeter, and about 7' from my ear. I believe in nearfield listening as it ameliorates a lot of the room issues. I still use room treatments but not a lot. Before you start trying all those room treatments, try moving into a different position as i think 9' is a long way to be from the speakers unless they are very far apart. Also make sure your ear is below the tweeter, not above. this is just a starting point for you. one suggestion: buy a spare mid/tweeter from Rob. Those drivers can be a bit touchy sometimes. |
pacoinmass - Welcome! Very sweet to grab those low numbered CS 2.7 loudspeakers. Thank You for citing your personal Audio history. I have often wondered about a Bryston Integrated on Thiel speakers? Keep working with your local dealer/retailer on room treatments. I look forward in reading more about your musical tastes. Good to see you here. Happy Listening! |
Wow! Stumbled on this thread several weeks ago and was hooked. Thx to the many contributors but especially jafant and Tom Thiel! Sorry for the long post however looking for some input. I purchased a store demo set of Thiel 2.7s (serial numbers 095/096) almost four years ago. One of the mid-range/tweeter drivers went on one speaker about 6 months later. The local shop from where I purchased it took it out and sent it back to Thiel? at the time. Not sure if I got a new one or repaired however I haven't had a problem since. I fell in love with the speakers at the store when they were hooked up to a Rogers EHF-100 amp. I purchased both demos. Unfortunately when the system was installed at my house by the dealer, the Rogers developed a problem. Was sent back to Rogers but that spooked me so I looked for alternatives. (I still have a Rogers amp on my list of potential purchases...loved the tube sound with the Thiels.) Ended up trying the Thiels with a Bryston B100 SST2 integrated amp. In my listening room at the time it didn't have enough power so I purchased a B135 SST2. Worked nicely in our previous home. At our new place, the system doesn't sound as good. Working with my local dealer re: room treatments but would be interested in the group's perspective. Room measures 16' x 15" for one part and narrows down to 13' 8" for another 10'. So from "end to end" the room is 26' with one part being 15" wide and the other part 13'8" wide. (Speakers are at the wider end of the room.) The ceiling height is not ideal: 7' 6" in most places but on the left side b/c of duct work, comes down to 6'4" and 6"11. Exit out of the room is through french doors...into another large part of the finished basement. Two large rugs cover most of the floor with assorted wall hangings (canvas painting with batting behind the canvases) to help deaden the sound. Speakers are about 2' 2" away from back wall and 45" from side wall for left speaker and 40" for right speaker. Seated about 9' from speakers. Am trying to move speakers out a bit more however constrained by fact that the room also serves as the home theater (separate 7.1 system) so the sofa/seating area can't be too much further away from the tv mounted on the rear wall. Have been advised that I should install 4 2'x'4'x1" ceiling panels, 1 2'x4'x1" panel behind each speaker, 1 2'x4'x1" panel along each side wall at first reflection point and 1 2'x2'x1" panel at each reflection point on the rear wall (in other words, on either side of the double french doors leading out of the room). Based on above, am curious re: 1. should I proceed with room treatments? If so, would like to do in phases...starting with ceiling. And then perhaps add the other panels. Does that make sense? 2. Based on email exchange with Bryston (and input from Bob Gillum in 2015 before purchase), the B135 should be fine with the 2.7s based on my listening preference (moderate volumes..75-85 db). I see most of you have much more powerful amps...should I address this first? Thanks for your input and look forward to following your journeys through this forum. |
jthifi - Stasis was the or among the first Pass designs. Its sliding bias and resulting internal stability obviated the need for global feedback. It is very linear and musical and as mentioned, Thiel used the Stasis 400A (last 70s) as one of its development reference amps. As time went on, Nelson's topologies became more and more simple, direct, minimalist and with very high quality components. In my opinion they rival the best in the world. The S-300 will not have that extreme finesse associated with later Pass designs. But at its bargain price it will out-do much of what's out there at any price. |
unsound, no worries about the character drop! Thanks for passing on the info. about the Threshold amp. unfortunately, it just sold. There is another Threshold 300 amp that eBay sent me to, but they want $450 more and it looks older without any of the upgrades this unit had. I appreciate your feedback and I'm all ears about your reservations about the other amps mentioned. tomthiel, thank you for your comments on the Threshold amp, it speaks volumes about it. |
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On the subject of amplifier, I swapped out my current amp for something a little less powerful. I have a spare SimAudio Moon W3 amp that is rated at 125W. Although it only has 125W, it is a fairly stout amplifier. But is it good enough to drive the CS2.4? For the most part, it's not bad, but occasionally it seems to lack a bit of dynamic as if it does not have enough current to drive the speakers and the bass lacking a bit of snap. I think 125W is more or less the cut-off power requirement for the CS2.4. I also have a tube amp rated at 50W but it just does not have any dynamic driving the CS2.4. |
jthifi my pleasure to assist you. The newer series Yamaha integrated amps are warm and powerful (A-S models) if you wish to continue with this brand.Tube-wise, a few owners here enjoy B.A.T. integrated amps to good effect.Pick a component to update or upgrade and move forward. Visit your local dealers/retailers and listen, listen, listen to the various gear. I look forward in reading more about you and your musical tastes. Happy Listening! |
jafant- Thanks for the feedback and advice about the thread. Interesting you mentioned tubed integrated because I had been reading up on the PrimaLuna line and wondering if they would have the power to properly drive the Thiels? When new the PrimaLuna's are above my budget but I'll keep my eyes open for used if you or anyone else thinks it might be a good pairing. You mentioned warmer integrated amps. Do you have any suggestions? It seems I have read reviews about Peachtree's being warmer, but may be off base. As far as cabling I am completely low-end right now. I am using Audioquest X-2 speaker cable. My interconnects from the 2i to Yamaha amp are Audioquest Evergreen on the analog out and something from Crutchfield called Metra ethereal on the coax out. Power cables are stock from mfr. plugged into a Panamex PM8 line conditioner\sure protector. It's an area I want to improve as budget allows. cheeg, Thank you as well. The McCormack certainly looks like it has the power and I could use a 2i to act as streamer\preamp all in one. I see a few used ones out there on ebay and other sites currently. |
jthifi Welcome! You are a lucky Man to have a wife whom brought Thiel Audio speakers into your life and marriage. As your schedule permits, please read through this thread, as I believe that there is a fellow CS 1.2 owner here. I recently had the opportunity to hear the Bluesound Node 2i during an audition of Bryston gear and Ryan Speakers. Upon switching from a Proceed CD player I did notice a brighter presentation and sound via ROON/Tidal selections. I can offer (2) solutions until the other Panelists chime in- think about a warmer integrated amp or a tubed integrated amp-providing you would like to continue current path. Cabling is another consideration. Which brand(s) of cables/power cords are in current system?Happy Listening! |
Hello all, newbie here. I have a pair of Thiel cs 1.2 speakers that my wife brought into the marriage 20 years ago (I should have known right then she was a keeper!). We unfortunately for various reasons while raising our children never used the speakers much and when we did it was with an underpowered sony receiver (not good). About 3 years ago I purchased a Yamaha A-S801 integrated amplifier to drive the Thiels. The Thiel's sound pretty good but I'm not sure I like the match. The sound can be a bit bright for my liking. I would really appreciate hearing what other amplifiers people have paired with the 1.2's. My budget is $1500. Lastly, I also have a Bluesound node 2i for access to Tidal MQA and my ripped CD library sitting out on a NAS that will be part of the equation. Thanks in advance for your thoughts. |
As for the CS6, it's hard to tell from JA review where the "reticence" comes from. When I listen to my speakers for example, I can tell whether the "reticence" of a particular frequency comes from the lack of transparency or a dip in frequency. One could mistake a dip in frequency for "lack of transparency", and likewise, one could mistake a "lack of transparency" in the dip in frequency. You could have NO dip in frequency response but still you could still sense some type of "reticence". Both aspects can be easily confused without having enough listening experience. As I have mentioned in my past posts, the CS2.4 does not have a dip in treble response, but as we have discussed in various posts here, due to less than ideal capacitor on the coax driver, there is some "lack in transparency" in the CS2.4 treble response but that has nothing to do with frequency response as a matter of fact I think the CS2.4 treble is fairly extended. And of course some have reported better details after upgrading the capacitors. I wish there is a "transparency" measurement but as far as I can tell, there is no such thing. So what left is up to one's own intuition. And trying to argue about different people intuition could be a futile exercise! |
Utrak - your room is small, but its proportions are very good, plus you get bass room gain without supporting the deepest and most problematic frequencies. Yes, they are quite efficient and the impedance doesn't drop as low as newer models, plus the sealed bass is less reactive and more coherent than higher-order ports and passive radiators. Sweet. You have kicked me into roping the CS3 into the 3.5 upgrade project. Story time: You all may or may not know or remember the deep recession of 1982. The Stock Market tumbled, expendable income plummeted and the emerging high-end industry took a hard hit. Many manufacturers including Acoustat (and I don't now recall other brands) went under. Many manufacturers dropped out of the June 1983 CES in Chicago - which felt like a ghost town compared to prior years. This was our 7th CES (before Las Vegas began), we had yet to make a profit, and we knew we were gambling on a flagship. The concept was the same as the 03 / 03a / 03b, but the execution of the curved baffle, highly customized drivers and next-level XO components put it in a higher league. We hoped folks would notice. There was always a pre-show walkabout the evening before opening. We had a mostly European purist recording following who always brought master-tapes and headphones to compare notes from studio to showroom. The Danes had been to KEF's new Reference 105 demonstration, claiming "phase correct" presentation. They also did their homework and reported the drivers as being time-aligned, but using high order filters and scrambling their test tracks. After the niceties, the new works began rolling. Lights out. Spaced omni capture of a live jazz ensemble, ending in a barely-audible triangle tink. It faded forever. Long silence. Applause. And the night went on somewhat like a dream. We had come to the show with a tentative retail price of $1250 / pair, a little advance from the 03a at $1150. We, especially Jim, feared a glass ceiling for a dynamic speaker from a fledgling, uncredentialed company at $1,000 / pair in 1983 dollars. These were frontier days, not only in Audio, but in boutique manufacturing generally, and on the heals of the deepest recession since the great depression. Uncharacteristically, I surveyed the attending guests, about 30 sophisticated insiders and industry associates, asking what a proper price might be for this thing. The 'auction' suggested $2K - $5K. Everyone was elated. We stayed up half the night discussing everything: the nature of our niche, the disparity between a few deep fans and 'the market' at large, the times, and the real settled costs of putting this thing into production. Note that each baffle was hand-sculpted by yours-truly in what might be called shop-jujitsu. We were pulling this thing out of our hats. Big sales were the enemy of stability and sleep. One key equation was that if I were engaged in hiring, teaching, coaching and managing new cabinet makers to produce this complex cabinet, I wouldn't be available to make baffles. Production is not prototype and we needed production to break into profitability and survive. When the room quieted around 3:AM, we had decided to introduce the 03b at $1850/pair. 03b? Well, it was the third version of the 03 and our system assigned that name. Jim predicted that we would loose most of our dealers, since our niche was unbelievably inexpensive / unexpectedly good performance. Next morning before opening, Peter Moncrief of The International Audio Review came to visit - he had heard talk. He was full of the right questions. He got answers he loved. He listened. He smiled. Peter pronounced that we had found the holy grail, that we had created the illusive and rumored impossible "Coherent Source" transducer. We christened it CS3 - Coherent Source, third generation model 3, and had the show of a lifetime. The room was packed full-time. Comparisons to KEF and B&W were flying. Only one east-coast dealer dropped our line - and was replaced by a more appropriate player. The CS3 turned our tide. Was it a bugger to make? Yes. Did we struggle to meet demand, yes. Did we rise to the opportunity? Partly. The CS3 was our watershed. It caused me to take a huge plunge and adopt CNC machining in its infancy - as a first-tier user. We mortgaged everything, and still couldn't manage the $6-figures investment. Banks had no money to lend even if we might qualify. Then magic happened. Remember Scott Estes, the Maggie Man reviewing for The Sensible Sound? Scott had become a friend. Kathy and I were commiserating with him about the bucket-load of orders we couldn't fill, the back-order that could bury us . . . and he volunteered news of an unexpected inheritance which he was willing to lend us on the strength of his belief in us. Oh My God. He funded the critical corner, the one that might not have been navigated. The CS3 real-cost equation required a price increase to $1950 at the first Las Vegas CES in January 1984. And that was just fine with everybody. Of course new learning superceeds old performance and new products always perform better in some ways. But nonetheless, the Thiel CS3 is a true classic in our corner of the history of the development of American High End Audio. And I hope to find a way for it to live on. R is for Renaissance. |
Utrak, Check out all the absorption I have to use to tame the bass on my CS3.6s....panels and tubetraps. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/6163 Jon |
Thanks for the link, holco. I quite like the subjective reviews at hifi-advice. They do an exceptional job of comparing the DUT not only to competing products but also describe how the sound changes with different speakers, even cables. Here is their review of the VX-5 (the amp section of my AX-5 is a less powerful version of the VX-5). https://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/review/analog-reviews/amplifier-reviews/ayre-vx-5-twenty/ |
I think it not improper to point out that JA seems to hear what his measurements tell him. At 50" there is a midrange suck-out and some spikes. Notice that he wonders in print if that is what he is hearing.
Supposedly, Stereophile’s reviewers do not see the measurements until after their subjective evaluation but easy to imagine that JA might deviate from that when he does the evaluation *and* measurements. He does acknowledge, in this case, that the measured suckout is specific to his axis and distance. That said, it seems possible that JA *was* hearing with his measurements. Soundstage measures at 2 m. The CS2.4 has the flattest “listening window” of any speaker in their database (+/-2 dB from 33-20k). http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/thiel_cs24/ It’s plainly obvious that JA’s 50" distance is inadequate to characterize the frequency response of a Thiel. I suspect the waterfall plot would also be cleaner if taken at 2 m (it's already quite good, especially in the midrange where other, larger drivers continue to have energy after the music has stopped) https://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs24-loudspeaker-measurements |
Thanks for the feedback everybody. I really do appreciate it. I think that I’ll attempt to further isolate the problem by swapping the tweeters first and then the midrange drivers if the problem doesn’t move with the tweeters. I’ll share my results with everybody. Tomthiel’s response is encouraging. I actually think that I stumbled onto something rather unique with respect to the CS3s and my small acoustically treated room. I was actually able to tame the bass by not using the bass equalizer and adding another set of 4’ x 2’ absorption panels (1 on each side of the room) between the corner trap and the first sidewall absorption panel. After doing that, I was blown away. It’s sad but at least I got to re-realize how special Thiel speakers really are. To make matters worse, newer Thiel models don’t have a bass equalizer that I can remove and the impedance curve drops to 3 ohms on some of them, which might present additional problems for my tube amps. I believe that the CS3s are 88dB efficient and the impedance only drops to 4 ohms. Good luck tomthiel. I know that Thiel owners of the world are rooting for you. |
