Thiel Owners

With dsp any xo can be linearized with zero phase at the xo area though with ringing often hidden in the noise level.

@holco 

Curious why you picked the Rhymthmic. If I ever decided to add subs I would almost certainly go with Vandersteens or used Thiels, so curious to know your rationale.

But I don’t feel the need. My old Vandersteens had some audible output into the mid 20 cycles whereas the 2.4s have nothing below 30 yet I’ve only noticed the difference on a single song (organ tones).

Prof - I noted in their website talk that they are using high-order DSP filters, which do not produce phase coherence, although all the talk implies that they do.

In my music production consulting work, I routinely picked out edits in mixes by the pre and post ringing of high-order DSP filters, while listening through (coherent) CS2.2s. The producer would invariably respond that "you can't hear that", usually because of his $7 figure equipment investment and grammy awards. But I and my client could independently spot the edits and other anomalies by separately noting time-code.

I don't claim to know what Meadowlark is doing. The review I found of the Swift shows wildly ranging impedance and phase swings - but it is time-coherent. The Shearwater qualifies as a T/P coherent design.

"Meadowlark seems to be back:’

Interesting that they are no longer touting time/phase coherency the way they did back when they were doing passive speakers. I’d guess perhaps they are still trying to achieve it via DSP, but if so it’s weird that they don’t mention the time/phase coherency results.

Rules - keep up the good work and keep us posted. Yes, the variability, especially with operating temperature, but also with elapsed time and use all require assumptions of what is average. We called that "average operating condition" as 1/2 hour into fairly vigorous playing. Note that the flat impedance curves created by the Zobel filters do a lot to minimize impedance variables.
I suggest more study on minimum vs linear phase. Minimum phase characteristic is where phase follows amplitude as each driver rolls off. The trailing phase and amplitude of one driver is inverse to and cancels the leading phase and amplitude of the other driver and nets to zero. Linear phase does not zero out and results in ringing in various ways depending on the type of filter.

GENERAL QUESTION TO EVERYONE:

I bought a pair of genuine Thiel Outrigger stands, but the Ebay seller doesn't know what model they fit. The front two spikes are 13-3/4 inches apart, from center to center . Does anyone know which model(s) speaker they were made for?

In the past several months I have done hours of listening and measuring of my 3.5 with passive and active digital xo. That Thiel originally also explored the triamping active xo makes good sense. The passive xo system still has these problems:
Each speaker has its own min phase characteristic. Minimum phase still has phase change depending on frequency range although "minimal". Only linear phase has a constant phase change independent of frequency range. Overlapping frequency range of multi-speaker systems still introduce phase changes especially with the 1st order xo that allows large overlapping ranges.
The variability of components is not negligible and when measuring each component the factory specs are only an approximation and fine tuning is essential. Taking good and reliable measures is an advanced skill but also frustrating as the components can change characteristics based on temp, load, etc. Then the issue of what differences are audible and not determined by subjective bias requires double blind comparisons. A passive xo system modification is a fair amount of work assuming that needed components are really available. My conclusion so far is that active digital xo system have the best chance to approach the ideal time phase coherent system with linear phase, time aligned, component eq, and even individual room adjusted set up. As it is stated that the speaker and room variables account for the largest part of the reproduced sound quality, it only makes sense to focus any innovations in mastering the active digital xo systems.

Beetle - Thanks for the reference products.
Jim did control out of band problems as you say. However, his major tool was to create mirror circuits for the relevant troublesome resonances - electronic anti-resonance circuits if you will, which cancel each problem in the frequency & phase /time domain. Most of the parts in those huge xo networks are series and parallel shaping circuits to tame the driver misbehaviors through many octaves. Beyond just having the chops to pull it off, a big problem is the parts cost, and the juggling act of what to spend to reach what performance plateau.

Unsound - thanks for the links. Indeed direct drive could be awesome with today's technologies. As I've mentioned, active was our starting point in the mid 70s. Wish I could find that first crude research speaker: 10" 3-way with 3 home-brew amps and low-level active XOs. We thought we could create a technical success, but judged the market to be unreceptive to the idea, especially from an unknown start-up.  

Jafant

The CS 2.4 are still sounding great, at this moment enjoying holidays in Portugal 🌞🌞🌞

Btw, ordered a Rhythmic F18 subwoofer to extend the lows on the CS2.4

Beetlemania, 

Yes I here good things about the Dutch&Dutch loudspeaker, for sure I will listen to them one day, after all they are designed in my country 😉

Dunlavy and Meadowlark were true time/phase correct speakers (although, in a Stereophile review of a Dunlavy speaker, the designer hedged whether the crossover is truly a first-order filter). Vandersteen is pretty much the last one standing and RV has really achieved something special with his carbon drivers. If he can ever bring that technology to a real world price point . . .

Avalon is not time/phase coherent. A top priority was avoiding distortion from out of band break up. The original Avalons (designed by Charles Hansen, Neil Patel, and Jeff Rowland) did this by using steep filters, low XO points, and small midrange drivers. The 3-way Ascent had a 2" titanium midrange. IMO, Jim Thiel was able to control, if not eliminate, out of band ringing by using small midrange (3.5" in my CS2.4 coax) or the wavy diaphragms of the X.7 models despite the slow roll-off filters.

None of the megabuck speakers I know of are time/phase aligned (certainly not Magico). That said, some of the best systems I’ve heard had speakers with steep filters. The TAD Ref 1 and Vivid Giya are standouts in my experience. I hope to soon have another listen to some megabuck speakers and compare their sound to my modded 2.4s.

The new Stereophile reviewed Dutch and Dutch active speakers that pretty much have time, if not phase, alignment. In fact, all of JA’s measurements were eye-popping. I can’t imagine I’ll ever own active speakers but I would love to hear those!

Avalon has never been T/P, as I recall.
Neither Magico.  They don't claim to, and Stereophile measurements show they aren't trying.

The difficulties of T/P are substantial and the prevailing wisdom from Canadian Research Council, Harmon, etc. is that the ear-brain doesn't care. We here lean toward the opposing opinion. And I am personally convinced that T/P as executed with first order slopes is worth its considerable effort.

Andy pointed out that the coincident driver eliminates the upper frequency lobing, plus Jim managed that inherent dispersion problem quite well via very low cross points. A seated listener at 8' or more distance gets a properly integrated wavefront, although the summed energy into the room has some potential unevenness. But I suspect that Thiel's polar patterns would hold their own against Von Schweikert and others who manage T/P via high order slopes.

I can't decipher whether Magico and other high-rollers are really dealing with T/P. It seems that such measurements aren't often included in reviews, or such products don't submit to reviews which do consider T/P. Lots of folks are using 4th (24db/octave) slopes to produce zero phase, non time-aligned hand offs. Zero phase means 360° (one cycle) revolution, so the signal harmonics are separated from the fundamental, but not completely scrambled. 4th order, whether active, DSP or passive does introduce pre-and post ringing and time smear at the XO point. Minimum phase is a term of art to describe phase and time in natural alignment considering deviations from flat amplitude response, as in crossover slopes. The lead and lag components add and cancel, producing no ringing or time smear, producing an added output with flat amplitude and phase with no ringing - allowing time alignment via physical offset.
Vandersteen and Thiel were chasing the same goal. Meadowlark seemed similarly aligned, but the only product review I saw was an early model, which didn't quite do what it claimed. Does anyone here know whether Avalon or other highly regarded speakers worked in the T/P domain?  

prof,

Bryston is well into active speaker development. I wonder if they might be persuaded to go the T/P route for future speakers.

Just a thought

George

Sad news that Roy Johnson, speaker designer/proprietor of Green Mountain Audio, has passed away.

Aside from the loss to those who knew him, that's one less Time/Phase coherent speaker on the market.  Not many passive T/P speaker brands left (Vandersteen...and?...)

Apparently, like Jim Thiel, he took a fair amount of the knowledge of the designs with him.

It looks like the slack will have to be picked up by active speaker designs, more of which are doing time/phase coherence via incorporating DSP.

Duelund:corrected.

@jserio If I didn't have a pair of 2.7's I'd be all over those!

Cable Update:

Krell TAS --> DH Labs Q10 --> Thiel 3.6

Bryston 7B-ST (Parallel Mode) --> ELF Custom Silver Surfers --> Thiel 2.7

This is the best results that I have gotten so far. 

While messing with some custom cables (Belden 8473 in a Kimber-esqe configuration) that used tinned-copper in another setup I set out looking for other tinned or coated copper cables.  Found the DH Lab and ELF cables for a reasonable price locally.

Looking at making some cables from Dueland wire in the near future.

A beautiful pair of 2.7's available in the Vancouver, BC area.
https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649541037-thiel-cs27-black-with-outrigger-base/

I contacted ronkent to buy the stands, since I own a pair of 2.0 and a pair of 2.2. I am really looking forward to using them.

I would like to add that to my knowledge,  outriggers were not an option on the earlier 2 series such as the 2 and 2.2.  however,  if anyone needs a pair of Sound Anchors  i do have a pair for sale as i no longer needed them once i got a pair of 2.4's. 

I wasn't clear about the O3a and CS3.5 tweeters in my post above. The Audax/Polydax was used in the O3a. They were plentiful, but they are getting more and more difficult to find. Spica and Snell are two manufacturers that used them also, and there were many more. The CS3.5 speakers used Dynaudio D28/2, 6 ohm, that were also mass produced and used for many years in many speakers, but very hard to find now.

warjarrett I messaged you.

I simply couldn’t agree more about 3.5s. I totally love mine and will never, ever sell. If I can keep them going, and all is good right now, they will always have a spot in my speaker rotation.

Not posted here much lately, but I check in here every few days and am really excited at the possibilities emerging for keeping the dream alive with these wonderful speakers that we are all so lucky to own.

Regarding the outriggers and spikes, I prefer the sound of my 2.4s with them on. It might simply be, however, that the improvement I hear is more related to having the speakers elevated another 2-3” rather than any coupling to the floor. My floor is tile over slab. The spikes sit on thin wood pieces to protect the Oriental rug I inherited from my parents. Anyhow, I’ve noticed I prefer the sound even more if I sit in a chair lower than my couch and another ~20” closer to the speakers. But this is changing more than one variable at a time, so can’t really say to what degree the lower listening axis makes it sound “better”.

Regardless, my modded Thiels sound superb. I hope Tom is able to bring his upgrade kits to market soon!

As candidate drivers are identified I and/or Rob can vet them. Rob is learning to use Thiel's Klippel and I am learning to use my SpectraFoo to make critical comparisons between the design driver and potential replacements. I recognize that this task is many years past due, but Rob has only had Coherent Source Service for a year and a half and I've been onboard (very part-time) for about a year. Slow progress is being made. We are committed to you having your classic Thiels for a long time.

tomthiel
Thank You for the follow on for a D28/2 tweeter.  Keep us posted on Rob's drop-in replacement option(s).
Happy Listening!

The Dynaudio tweeter was a D28/2 - 6 ohm. Rob has been looking, and is continuing to look for a drop-in replacement. Keep us posted on what you find.

harrylavo
Keep us posted as you experiment with possible after-market Tweeters for the 3.5 model. Was the price offered per Mr. Rob Gillum recent?

Happy Listening!

parts:corrected.

warjarrett
Thank You for offering a potential solution for those who are seeking paryts for their 3.5 loudspeakers. Buying/Selling/Trading,  is highly encouraged here on this thread. It is Thiel Audio Community-based after all.
Happy Listening!

wajarret -  Rob Gilliam told me he could sell me rebuilt original tweeters for the 3.5 for around $270-280 (can't remember precisely).  That helps set a ceiling I would think.

On the other hand, I'm going to buy one of the Chinese tweeters and if that IS a pretty good match, that would seem to set a lower match.  Right now Davidlouis Audio is selling them for $48 plus shipping.

Harry

Theilrules - the Chinese tweeter claims to be a D28 Dynaudio replacement.  Thanks for the specific information.

wajarette - I'll take a closer look at what's available on eBay.  Thanks.

Harry

Harrylavo
 
I have a few extra tweeters and midranges for Thiel O3a and CS3.5. I hesitate to sell any of them, because they are so difficult to find. If you love these speakers and have a few spare parts, would YOU sell them? So, I think we should set some prices, within this group of Thiel cognoscenti, that are not unreasonable to those of us who need a few, but also fairly representative of their difficulty to obtain. I would rather not take full responsibility for the high prices I am about to suggest, but here they are:

O3a tweeter: $300 each
CS3.5 tweeter: $250 each
CS3.5 midrange: $400 each

These are not my asking prices (yet), but my proposal for a group decision, based on what we know about their rarity. And these prices are for guarenteed working units, with maybe a little wrinkle or two in the tweeter dome or midrange dust cover, but no damage to them and excellent cone and surround quality (which can be replaced).

Now, if there are other, cheaper sources for exactly the same tweeters, please let us all know. The Audax/Polydax tweeters were standard parts, used by a number of speaker manufacturers, but still getting more rare all the time. But there are variations in mounting plate dimensions and in ohm impedance, that we have to be careful to get right, and the guarentee not to be DOA that we have to confirm.

wajarette -

My 2.2's are with me until I die, or at least until Tom comes up with his upgrade.

I'd like my 3.5's to be with me as well, but that will depend on how good a replacement tweeter works (need three).  I love those speakers ..... heard the 3a's in Louisville while under development and bought the dealer demo pair in Burlington VT about 8 years later.

I understand your amazement.  I can't find speakers in dealer showrooms today that I like as well as these in total (well, Maggies excepted which I also once owned and wouldn't mind once again.)

Harry

tomthiel

Thank you very much for your synopsis of the 2.x models: their differences among themselves, benefits compared to the 3.x, your preferences and history with them, and why so many people like them.

Most of the followers of this thread don’t realize that I have known Tom from the days of the O3a, more than 30 years, from CES in both Las Vegas and Chicago. The Thiel room was one of my favorite every time, and Tom one of my favorite people to chat with. I have kept occasional contact with him ever since then, just to talk about the speakers. When he told me about his preference for the 2.x models, I could not resist collecting a CS2.0 and CS2.2 for myself, even though I still have never set them up to hear them. I have just been too enthralled with my O3a, CS3.5 and CS3.7, thinking I would miss them TOO MUCH if I moved them out to try the smaller ones.

Well, about 7 years ago, I became the exclusive dealer for Audio Note (UK) in the Los Angeles area. One of the Thiels had to go into storage to make room for a demo pair of AN/E speakers ($12,000/pair), and now I love them too. But then finally, when I moved back the CS3.5 into my primary listening room, my friends and I were amazed. What we all remembered as about the best sound we had ever heard (my Thiel CS3.5 system) was STILL among the VERY best we’ve ever heard. It is truly amazing that after all these years of my ownership, 20+ year old speakers demonstrate that the unique goals and successes of Jim Thiel still provide state-of-the-art sound, in these very specific aspects: imaging specificity, sound stage size, depth, resolution of subtle details, and presentation of very fine timbre and texture that approach the sound of truly live instruments and voices. The 30+ year old O3a, provide these magical characteristics as well. Since the CS3.5 proved themselves again, I have not moved AN speakers back into that room since. I bought a pair of CS3.7 speakers to put there, the CS3.5 are back in storage, and AN speakers populate the other rooms in my homes and retail audio salon. The Thiel O3a have never moved, by the way, and still sound awesome in my parents’ living room, where I have listened to them from the time they were current models. Yeah, that was when I was a college student, still living there.

Now, because of this thread, and all the love I have read about for the 2.x speakers, I have my CS2.0 pair (piano black) in the hallway, just about ready to insert them into one of my listening rooms, for the first time. My CS2.2 pair are DEFINITELY going to get the full Tom Thiel update treatment, and I will not be surprised if they take a permanent place in my life, along with the CS 3.7 in my living room that are not going anywhere either.

Happy Friday! All

rwmeditz
Thank You for the kind words. Enjoy the reading of this thread.
Happy Listening!

Jafant

To quote Radar O'Reilly of MASH, "Ahh, Bach". I can add "Ahh, Clapton", but little else here other than questions. However, I am still reading and following this wonderful and informative thread nearly daily. I can't not, too much to learn here.

Tmsrdg

Paul Jacobs was an amazing teacher at Brooklyn College as well. After the first few classes I made sure to sit in the first row on the left so i could watch his hands glide across the keyboard and also really focus on the music. Knowing really nothing about music and only listening to rock I wanted to expand my horizons after hearing ELP'sversion of Fanfare for the Common Man and the classical influences of the Beatles. He concentrated on 6 composers of different genres. Bach's Cello Concertos, a late Haydn symphony, Debussey's La Mer, Stravinsky's Rite of Spring, Schoenberg and Bela Bartok. His anecdotes also offered great insights into the process of creating music and the lives of these composers, especially Stravinsky He really was a genius to be able to instill a lifelong love of classical music and teach someone with no prior musical education so much. His untimely death was a great loss. 

tomthiel
Thank You for continuing to add value to these conversations here.One could never reinforce information too much.

Happy Listening!