Thiel Owners

I’m settling in, down, planting myself!

This is almost where I am. My modded 2.4s sound superb. I would probably have to drop at least $30k to better them in any meaningful way. My amp is killer, would have to $$$pend to get better performance there, too. The reason I wrote “almost” is because I am in line to get my Ayre DAC upgraded to latest version. After that I have zero plans to change my system in any way. 

jafant...
I’m still with the cheap-seats Transparent cables. I’ve yet to find a reason to concern myself with anything else. 


I am not going to head down the same road I did since joining this site.  It’s almost embarrassing how much stuff I’ve sold and bought here. This Belles is excellent.  I will play around with cables, maybe, down the road. I’m settling in, down, planting myself!

batmanfan

I use an Audio GD Master 3 power amp on my CS 2.4 loudspeakers with IMHO great results on any loudspeaker I ever had.

http://www.audio-gd.com/Master/Master-32019/Master-32019EN.htm

Review of the Master 10, same power amp but with a preamp integrated. 

https://darko.audio/2013/03/audio-gd-master-10-w-magnepan-mmg-6moons/

http://6moons.com/audioreviews/magnepan2/4.html

Thank you brayeagle—got those 28s used! I will definitely audition the BP17s, thanks for that suggestion. I also took a quick look at the SP4s and while the specs look incredible, I just can’t drop that much coin on tech that seems to change so much. @Prof, I’m actually very much interested in looking at options outside of Anthem and Bryston, and hopefully I’ll get some more feedback on what people have liked with their SS amps and Thiels. I’m a little nervous getting into tubes as I’d just be a noobie in that area. I don’t know how long they last, if tubes need to be replaced often, they look so delicate, are used tubes reliable, etc. Certainly this fear comes from ignorance and I’m the first to admit that I’m probably going to just stick with what I know and have used in the past: solid state. That said, if I can find more time to lean about tube preamps and can save up some money, I may venture into this arena. @Prof, what preamp do you use?

Boy oh boy, people here sure like Bryston amplification more than I do :)
(Strictly speaking it's not a problem with Bryston which are very competent amplifiers.  I guess it's just that having owned Bryston, having friends using Bryston etc, for me that brand is the "poster child" for solid state amp sound, and I'm an inveterate tube amp guy when given the choice).

batmanfan

I'm running  Thiel 2.7s with a Bryston 4B cubed amp and BP17 cubed preamp.  IMO, Bryston preamps and amps were made for each other. 
(I envy you with those 28B monos!)

The BP 17 cubed can be ordered as a stand alone preamp, with an excellent DAC, with an excellent Phono stage, or with both. 

Just a thought

George

Hi Everyone,
My Anthem AVM20 pre/pro that I’ve had for over 15 years has just died. Originally, I was using my system for 75-80% HT and the remainder 2-ch. since then it’s now about 50/50. I’m looking for some thoughts on a pre/pro or preamp that has good synergy with my current setup, which I have slowly upgraded:
- Thiel 2.7s
- Bryson 28B2 monos
- Goertz Alpha Core AG3 speaker cables and Straightwire ICs
- Sony SCD-XA9000ES sacd player
- A dead Anthem AVM 20
- Martin Logan Descent sub
- and some cheap Sony blu-Ray player the model of which I can’t recall, lol!
I’d be open to going with a stereo preamp right now given that there seems to be a lot of change with HT at the moment with the evolution of object-based surround sound. In fact, I was originally going to get the Anthem AVM 60 but then Marantz came out with their 8805, then Emotiva with their RMC-1, and soon Monoprice with their 16-channel option...its enough to make my head spin!  Let me know what pre/pro or preamp you guys have heard (or possess) that has sounded good with a similar SS setup!

beetlemania...

Yup - I decided to accept the counteroffer immediately so I wouldn’t risk blowing the opportunity. 


Black ain’t exactly my color preference but hey, right now I’ve got the Maggie MMGi’s in place and their panel is all black.  The Thiels are narrower. Whomever is  gonna see the sides ain’t listenin’, anyhoo. 


Looks like I might have a little touching up to do on the base - otherwise the photos appear to show the cabinets in all around acceptable shape. 


I’m practically giddy.  I am so impressed with this integrated and how it delivers through the Maggies. 
It has a fairly robust separate power supply that attaches to the integrated with an umbilical. 



I’m running Transparent cabling on the Oppo CD player, the Bluesound Node, and the Peachtree Audio DaciT. The speaker cables are JW Cryonova 8 footers which are very similar to Anti-cables appearance wise.  I like these types of cables because I am able to route them without them touching other surfaces. 


All this under $3k. Woohoo. 

@obglny, FWIW, I have next to no confidence in the meters commonly found on consumer grade gear, regardless of the price and/or reputation of the manufacturer. They are almost never calibrated and often mislead consumers to erroneous conclusions. They are, IMHO, more often than not just extraneous light shows adding just another expensive part to wear out, break and need replacement. 

Yes, drivers look great. You have to be OK with black but I think $1550 is a deal. Listing says they’re sold, Hope that’s you!

Beetlemania...

The speakers appear to be in good to very good shape cosmetically except for one speaker having some imperfections at the base. The drivers appear to be in excellent shape - at least via the photos supplied. The buyer has 100% positive feedback on eBay - as do I,  so I’m going to sleep on it and make the decision in the morning.  


The seller countered with $1550. Methinks that’s the best I can expect to hear for these. You’ve pointed out a lot of what impressed me about Thiel from my first pair of 2.2.  And now, with the option of upgrading them via Tom Thiel - down the road a bit - I will be able to restate that Thiel is an investment, not a purchase. 


Thanks for the the additional info. 

@oblgny 

If those 2.4s have undamaged drivers and 7+ cabinet they are probably worth the asking price. Doesn’t matter about the SE or not. Most of the SE features were cosmetic (the finish *is* stunning). The only change affecting the sonics was use of Clarity Cap SAs on the coax feeds. In fact, some older 2.4s might have otherwise higher parts quality than the SE. Regardless, I promise you Tom Thiel’s upgrade will be head and shoulders beyond that. 

I recently had the opportunity to hear a couple of uber $peaker$ and the experience confirmed my impressions: in terms of resolution, transparency, soundstaging, and neutrality, my modded 2.4s sound as good as the best I’ve heard.

Not surprisingly, the 2.4s can’t match the bass performance of $$$ designs. And not simply bass extension (the 2.4 has energy down to about 30 cycles which covers nearly all musical content). In particular, a sealed box design I heard has a clear step up on the Thiel’s passive radiator. Bass definition/ articulation was notably better via sealed box. That said, I consider the passive radiator to have a good mix of tradeoffs considering their price point (when I got the 2.4s, the first thing I noticed was tighter bass compared to my Vandersteen 2Ce Sig IIs).

The uber designs also have a more tangible image density. One speaker, retailing for about $80k, had an unbounded, open sound that was exquisite. And I’ve previously  heard a $peaker that recreated the sense of hall space on live recordings in a way that no other has.

Would I trade my 2.4s for the $80k model? Yes, I would. Can I afford the $80k model? Not even close! It’s quite amazing how much SQ Jim Thiel brought to regular working people. The 2.4 is a speaker that working class people can realistically afford. And Tom Thiel’s XO upgrade brings the performance on par with the best I’ve heard in the parameters that are most important to me: resolution and transparency. The weaknesses I outlined above are minor. The $$$ designs showed me a few places where they outperform my 2.4s but they never left me feeling my speakers are broken or deficient in any way. I just bliss out to music on a system that is paid for!

Highly recommended :)

Happy Friday! All

beetlemania...
Your post regarding driving your CS2.4's was MOST appreciated at this moment because I am about to tender an offer on a pair that's available locally here in New York.  (not the SE version) I just sold my Audio Research DSi200 integrated to assist funding it.  The seller is asking $1800. I'm offering $1400 - we'll see what develops.
My listening levels are pretty much in line with your own.  While I do listen at louder levels every once in a while,  most of my listening is done very conservatively.  Example:  I once sold a Threshold amplifier at a serious discount because I thought the meters were broken.  After the sale the buyer contacted me to say nothing was wrong - I just never listened loudly enough to get the meters moving.
At this moment I am once again enjoying the Maggie experience.  I love Maggies and I love Thiel.  My Maggie MMGi's frequency response is 50hz - 20khz - not much downstairs at my preferred listening volume.  Pushed a little bit,  just above that zone they do fill in nicely.  I can feel the bass.  But at lower volume...I find myself wanting.

Thiels do a much better job at reproducing that "feel" of the bass at lower listening levels - at least IMHO.  I'd keep these Maggies otherwise,  but this pair of 2.4's is tantalizing.
I'll be keeping the Belles 250i integrated.  Based on my previous experience with Thiel and Magnepan I just know this will be a fine synergy.  This Belles is outstanding.

Clear and Beetle - thanks for the good question and the excellent answer and sorry to compress both into such a short two-word summary "radical divergence".

What is "radical divergence"

Some people like to listen at very high SPLs and have large rooms. They will need a LOT of power. Some people have smaller rooms and listen at moderate levels. They will need hardly any power.

I did some calculations for my CS2.4s. Thiel claimed a minimum impedance of 3 ohms and three reviewers measured the minimum ranging ~2.7-3.1 ohms. Assuming a *constant* 2.9 ohm load (a worst case scenario as the impedance dips this low only for part of the frequency spectrum) and ignoring room interactions, I need about 5.5 watts for 85 dB at the listening position, ~20 W for 90 dB, ~50 for 95 dB, and ~180 W for 100 dB. I estimate my amp clips at ~97 dB. But I very rarely ask for more than 90 dB peaks and most of my listening probably only requires 2-5 W. My amp has plenty of headroom for my listening preferences. Others may need more power. If you demand 105 dB peaks (sorry for your ears), you may need 500-750 W with something like the CS2.4, depending on room interactions!

So, someone like me needs <50 W but some others may need an order of magnitude more power. Radical divergence.

tomthiel"I can't answer that question due to the radical divergence of individual needs"

What is "radical divergence" that does not make any sense to me but English is not my first language so I ask you politely, respectfully, and sincerely to explain this term.

Todd - I can't answer that question due to the radical divergence of individual needs. Big room and/or loud level can magnify power requirements by large multiples.
That said, unlike other circuit topologies, the power stays absolutely clean until it quits - limited by fast protection circuitry.My situation is unusual in that my studio has 2 real, exterior walls, but the interior walls are porous, allowing few reflections or standing waves. The ceiling and floor are normally framed and therefore somewhat lossy. The studio occupies a corner of a 30'x50'x8' space which is open to similar spaces above and below it. So my listening environment is effectively quite large. My peak listening volumes never exceed 100dB, usually around 85.

In normal 100w/c stereo mode, the clip lights have rarely flickered, but have never tripped. In 400w/c bridged mode I have not reached any limit. So, the AHB-2 acts like a larger amp than it measures, probably due mostly to staying clean all the way to max, rather than gradually increasing distortion as most amps do.

Benchmark offers a generous home trial audition. I suggest you A/B it in your system with full send-back guarantee.

Tom - I've been considering an upgrade to my Classe CA-300 that powers my 3.7s, so I checked out the specs to the Benchmark amp you listed. The short question I have is: is this enough power? Obviously you consider that to be the case, but in an arena where many consider the large Krells to be normative, would the Benchmark keep up? Thanks for your thoughts.Todd

Arvincastro - my comments might be from left field, since I don't have much direct comparison to hi fi gear. For my work upgrading classic Thiels, I wanted 3 dissimilar amps for cross-checking upgrades. My main amps are Classe DR-6 pre and a pair of DR-9 power amps, which I have used for 30 years, know very well, and mate well with Thiels. In 1990 they were pretty decent entry-level high end with strong reviews. In addition I recently bought an Adcom GFA-555mkII, which to me represents a mid-fi amp with some hi-fi cred. My reference amp settled as a pair of Benchmark AHB-2s. That amp is primarily a pro amp, turns up in a lot of mixing and mastering studios, plus got Class A ratings from Stereophile, Absolute Sound, etc. Its claim to fame is absolute neutrality and vanishing distortion in a small, affordable, Class H package. I don't know what hi-fi aficionados think of it; I have asked here to no response, and I haven't seen it in the chatter. I am pleased with it as a colorless, honest straight wire with gain. FWIW.  

arvincastro,

I have been very pleased with how the PS Audio Stellar M700 Monoblocks match up with my Thiel 2.2 speakers. Bass control and impact are excellent, and the mids and highs are dynamic and highly musical. Of course, the overall sound is also influenced by the Stellar Gain Cell DAC/Pre that feeds my M700s. At the same time, I have heard nothing but positive comments about how well a tube preamp can work with the M700s and with Thiels in general, so I'm sure your tube gear would mate well with class D monoblocks.

Hello all!

Anyone here have any experience or thoughts on Class D amplification with our Thiels? As I continue to wait and research my eventual move to monoblocks, I must admit, the thought of something from Bel Canto, Theta Digital, Jeff Rowland, PS Audio or Audio Research’s DS450M (would mate well with the rest of my tubed ARC gear) has been gaining traction in my mind solely for the Class D’s promise of energy efficiency.

Appreciate any thoughts...

Arvin

The CJ Premier 12 amps are still expensive to buy used and expensive to re-tube when necessary. I would think a Premier 11 (the stereo version) would be a very nice substitute, and a fantastic amplifier to hear with the CS3.7s, also. I love CJ and I love ARC. I am currently using Audio Research Classic 120 mono amps with my CS3.7. They make a simply magical combination. But I am sure a CJ Premier 11 (or pair of Premier 12)  would be stiff competition.

Jim dismissed the pluses because he couldn’t get past the minus of insufficient deep bass control.

Understandable, especially from his designer perspective.

The reason I’ve held on to the Premier 12s all this time is because Michael Fremer’s old stereophile review nailed the character of these amps. They have that mid-band lushness, upper frequence glow/sparkle/aliveness and yet produce taught and controlled sounding bass with every single speaker I’ve ever owned. I never feel compromised with "tube bass" in terms of a flabbiness or lack of control. As I’ve written, the 3.7s on my CJ amps had the most controlled and coherent bass I’ve ever heard.

We usually had a latest CJ and ARC model in our listening room.

I have very limited experience with CJ but ARC is great stuff, IMO. If I wasn't an Ayre-head, I would probably have ARC (or Aesthetix or a John Curl design).

There are one or two Thiel owners here on A'gon who use ARC to drive CS2.4 and, even, CS3.7 using ARC.

Prof - my personal AHA moment was somewhere around 1981, possibly with the introduction of the original CS3 at Chicago CES. We used Tim DeParavicini's Esoteric Audio Research pre and power amp. I was dumbfounded. Jim dismissed the pluses because he couldn't get past the minus of insufficient deep bass control. BUT, I never really heard such magic again, probably because I got so deeply immersed in factory-building that I lost track of the musical experience.

We usually had a latest CJ and ARC model in our listening room. All those amps seemed to vanish before the bankruptcy auction except the Krell FPB-600 in Jim's lab.

Very cool Tom!

I first heard Thiels on tubes at CES - in the VAC room where Kevin Hayes was using Thiel CS6s.  I was completely entranced by the combo.  Not being able to afford VAC and already having good experience with lower priced CJ amps, I sprung for the big CJ Premier 12 monoblocks, tried them with the CS6 and there was that magical sound I'd heard at the show.

But then, I tend to prefer certain tube amps on most speakers.  I've never been able to settle in for very long with an SS-powered system.

Jafant and Prof - I don't know if it is well known that Thiel and CJ had a very close relationship to the extent of many visits as well as trade of equipment, ideas and methodologies. We used each others' equipment both publicly and privately as well as cross-polinated ideas and solutions. Although Thiel generally used SS equipment at shows for its neutrality, dependability and bass control, we used tubes quite a bit for development. Our critical listening / explorations most often were carried out with CJ and ARC amplification with the SS amps for verification.

In my first 20 years time-frame the CJ x Thiel relationship was by far the closest peer interaction that we had. Kathy and Dawn stay at Bill's house in DC in their travels there.

Prof - I only saw the setup in the factory and did not witness a demonstration. But John's explanation did not include a blind component, rather it was a live vs recorded comparison tool. The "band" would play and be recorded live to listeners, and then that recording was played back immediately to the same listeners in the same place - very few uncontrolled variables.

I have read about show demos with a guitarist, etc. between two speakers who may or may not have been playing the strings as the recording of the previous verse may or may not have been coming through the speakers. That's second-hand hearsay, but the boldness itself is impressive.

arvincastro

Thank You for addressing the Cabling queries. 
Happy Listening!

catalysis

Thank You for the suggestion to bighempin's phono stage query.

Any other Panel members wish to recommend their suggestion(s)?

Happy Listening!

bighempin

Good to see your posts again.  Stay tuned for our Vinyl experts to chime in on your query. I know that you have had a fun Summer.

Happy Listening!

arvincastro

Good to see you back. Hope that your are well and enjoying Summer. It is winding down fast.

Happy Listening!

prof

Yes- I did test w/ my Thiel speakers. Not a bad little system at all.
The CJ reference killed it as well as the Ayre Twenty Series.

Happy Listening!

Tom, how did it work exactly?  Would the subject (listener) first hear the live band, and then that was recorded and A/B'd somehow with the live musicians without the listener knowing which was which?

Prof - I saw his live vs recorded setup, although never witnessed a test. His large anechoic chamber had one wall that opened onto a larger space. The combined space had a pair of speakers set-up and could accommodate a chamber or jazz ensemble positioned between the non-operative speakers. He was equipped to record (at that time it was direct to DAT) which he would then play back without any one or anything moving. The set up was beyond reproach and something like what I envisioned for Thiel in my dreams, but we were never flush enough to implement. Not shy at all, but his products delivered. I only heard them there at his factory around 1995, which was first-generation early goods. I'd like to hear a pair of SC-Vs or VIs.

Wonderful post Tom!  Thanks.

I used to follow J. Dunlavy's claims and met him once at an audio show.He sure wasn't shy about his opinions :-)

Also he was one of the very few speaker designers claiming his speakers could replicate the sound of real voices and instruments, and claimed he often did these live vs reproduced tests. 

Thosb - Since you haven't gotten a response to your Dunlavy / Thiel query, I'll throw in some observations. I have not directly compared the two brands, but I do have some experience with Dunlavy which might be relevant. In my consulting work after Thiel Audio, Dunlavy was among my contacts, where I saw first-hand how they approached the work. I would call John's approach nearly identical to Jim's, with Dunlavy having more investment in equipment, patents and broader background in the art.

The company started as Duntech in Australia where John D. worked in the high-energy antenna realm, holding multiple patents - that company had considerable government support as they piggy-backed the loudspeakers into the antenna infrastructure and contracts. They moved to Colorado Springs as a private enterprise for more direct access to the North American market, with the financial backing of John's patent attorney as partner. Their facility was enviable - including two anechoic chanbers and considerable interactive production measurement / analysis tools. Every speaker was developed and tested with multiple / near, mid and far-field mic arrays. Their crossover layouts concentrated on stray electromagnetic interactions. They were net first order, like Jim's with similar attention applied to similar methods and outcomes.

Another departure was their cabinets, which is why I was there. They allowed vibrating panels (like British monitors), incorporating those resonances into the sound sculpture, and ignoring the resulting time-domain slurring. Similarly, the square edges introduced diffraction, which seemed of little concern to them. However, I see that more recent models paid considerably more attention to those aspects which I had assessed as weaknesses.

I note in the reviews, that John Dunlavy (a rather commanding presence) pushed back very effectively against the misleading close-miked measurements by Stereophile. Thiel took a "gentleman's attitude" and rarely if ever commented publicly on the misrepresentations of such measurements.

Dunlavy aimed for higher retail prices against lower manufacturing costs than Thiel for a solid profitability, and thoroughly well executed designs. Dunlavy seemed a one-man-show on my visits, much like Thiel. The ability to carry on without the founder's focusing vision and unique talents is very difficult. There are only a few products beyond Thiel which interest me and which I recommend when asked. Dunlavy is one of them.

As far as phono stages go, it’s sometimes possible to pick up a used Manley Chinook at the top end of, or just a bit over, the budget you mention. This is what I run and works fantastic with any speaker, including my 3.5s. It’s basically Manley’s top of the range $8500 Steelhead model without a lot of the bells and whistles. Tubes in it as well so that ticks one of your boxes. Also has very versatile settings to accommodate just about any mm/mc/mi cart.

Jafant,

Interesting CJ combo.  I have the CJ Premier 16 LS2.  Were you able to bring them home to try with the Thiels?

(I was just kidding about the cables  - no need to waste your time telling me what cables you tested).

@ bighempin

From my personal experience of hearing my friend's all Vincent system, I can say that their tubed & hybrid phono preamp models sound great...way better than their reasonable prices would suggest.  They're built extremely well & look good to boot.  He has their PHO 701 which is tubed-based, has an external power supply & can be switched for MM/MC.  Costs about half of what you'd think it should, especially after you hear it.  They will easily fit in your budget range...worth a try.

Another contender I could recommend is the Lehmannaudio Black Cube.  Had one in my system for a little while and can say that it very transparent and extremely quiet, but may sound a bit lean depending on the system it's put in.

Good luck!

Arvin

Hello all!

I just wanted to chime in on the cable discussion as I am a bit of an outlier as well.  Like several of you, I am using Audioquest RCA interconnects (Golden Gate) on my front-end sources (ARC PH-3 tube phono preamp, Bluesound Vault 2 networked streamer, Denon 2900 SACD player and Denon VL-12 turntable) to my ARC LS-7 tube line-stage.  However, from the LS-7, I swapped out the Golden Gates and am now using MIT Terminator RCA interconnects to my ARC D240 MKII solid-state amp. 

I had been using a custom speaker cable set composed of Gotham SPK-8 cable, but replaced those with MIT AVT-3 speaker cables.  I was looking to diminish some harshness I perceived in my system and MIT was suggested to me by several other enthusiasts.  I do know that with the MIT in my system, the harshness I used to have has been pretty much eliminated and I do get a sense of a more cohesive sound...not a loss of resolution mind you, but less analytical than before if that makes sense.

While I cannot prove that their "poles of articulation" tech works, I will simply say that I do find the switch to MIT to be a noticeable and favorable change in that I get a better sense of musicality than I did before. 

Hope you are all enjoying the summer!

Arvin

Hello Fellow Thiel Owners!

I was hoping you guys could help me out with some recommendations for a phono stage. My current system is a PS Audio BHK signature preamp, BHK 250 Amp, PS Audio DSD Jr DAC, MoFi Ultradeck Turntable with a MoFi master tracker cartridge, Thiel 3.7 speakers, PS Audio power cables and a mix of used interconnects from Ron_Kent.

I was hoping to be in the $500-$1500 price range(I don’t mind going a little over or under I really just don’t want to spend more than I spent on the turntable). I asked my local dealer, who sold me my turntable, about the MoFi Phono and he said it was several levels beneath my PS Audio gear(I didn’t ask him what that meant for my turntable but I wondered). He suggested I go with the PS Audio preamp called the Sprout($500) as it has a phono stage in it but he also admitted he knew nothing about it. The new PS Audio Phono is around $2500 MSRP, which is more than I want to spend.

Lastly, I thought it might be fun to get a phono with some tubes in it but it is not a must. Do you vinyl guys out there have any recommendations for a phono stage that might pair well with my system?

Thanks for all the help and suggestions.

Beetle - I took your advice and ordered Cardas internal wire, same as yours. Not yet had the opportunity to compare. Thanks for the nudge.

In my wire investigations I have learned that 6-9s wire is nearly extinct and even 5-9s is practically unaffordable. As the world changes toward miniaturization, highly complex component circuitry and wireless data and signal transmission, wire is less critical. It seems that some of the best sources (both audio and aerospace) are using 4-9s with careful casting, drawing, gauging and coating technologies. To your question, Thiel maintained a steadfast commitment to using the best wire available

Hi TomI probably already shared this in a PM, but I found the Cardas hookup wire and binding posts to make a really nice improvement in SQ. In fact, I would rank the improvement as tied with the Mills resistors for second biggest improvement after replacing all caps and coils. I hope you are able to audition Cardas as you work on the R upgrades.

That said, my experience aligns with with Prof in that $$$ AC cabling does not yield a corresponding improvement in SQ. As always, YMMV.