Thiel Owners

Happy Friday! All

tomthiel,

I completely understand your perspective on power cables. I've been a cable skeptic until recently and have mostly avoided diving down that deep black hole myself. And I don't want to get a big cable discussion going in this thread. But since you brought up the shielding issue in power cords, I'll just mention the limited info I've been told by cable advocates. What I've been told is that a shielded power cord is a good idea for DACs and other components that generate a lot of digital noise, but that shielding is not always necessary (and possibly not even desirable) for cords on power amps. The Forte F3 cords have some shielding, but Audience says it's designed to work well even on high-power amps. That claim may just be marketing, of course.

Maybe sometime, when your mind is calm and not overburdened with thoughts of too many other more important things, you'll borrow a low-cost high-value power cord like the Forte and give it a try on your DAC/Pre. For a guy who can hear differences between caps in a speaker crossover, a quality power cord may offer you a few interesting sonic surprises.

On a more important issue, I'm really looking forward to the point when your upgrade kit for the 2.2 is ready for distribution. Best of luck with that effort! 

SDL4 - Thanks for the tip. I have not gotten my mind around power cords except in one way. My Electromagnetic Field Meter registers large and variable EMF fields around all the equipment. It seems possible that shielding those fields via a shielded cord might clean up the supply signal. But I don't even know whether Audio Power Cords use a shield. So, I am ignorant of the power cord debate and don't have the mental resources to wade in; I'll stay with Prof on the sidelines. But, someday I'll give something a try, and that is likely to be your Forte F3. Thanks again.

tomthiel,

Hope the Stellar Gain Cell DAC/Pre sounds great in your system. If you decide you want to try a low-cost power cord upgrade for the DAC/Pre, the Audience Forte F3 has worked out well for me. This cord is a relative bargain that was highly recommended by the guy who helped me at the Cable Company. They are offering B-stock at $149, and this cord is also available for $125 through Parts Connexion.

In my system, the Forte F3 made the sound smoother, with a lower noise floor and deeper, tighter bass. I noticed more effect when using the cord on the DAC/Pre than on my amps. It might be a worthwhile investment if you decide you want to try an inexpensive power cord upgrade.

ronkent and sdl4 - thanks for your feedback. I'm getting one and will let you know what it does in my system.

@arvincastro


Regarding Class D amps - I have a pair of the Bel Canto REF600M's.  I've tried them on my 3.6's and 2.7's.  I didn't care for them when compared to the Krell TAS (3.6's) and Bryston 7BST parallel mode (2.7's).  I've since changed cables and am going to listen to them again in both systems.

Currently they are running a pair of B&W CDM1SE's in an office system and are amazing for that build.

@batmanfan

Regarding the pre/pro I've been running a Mytek Brooklyn+ providing signal to a pair of Bryston 7BST monoblocks which are powering a pair of 2.7's.

Mainly classical and jazz with a fair bit of rock.

The Mytek can convert DSD,DXD,MQA, etc etc etc and also includes a MM/MC phono preamp.

tomthiel,

I can't say that I have done extensive preamp comparisons, but I have had a PS Audio Stellar Gain Cell DAC in my system for the last 6 months, and I like it a lot. The Gain Cell DAC/Pre replaced a Bryston .5B preamp I had used for many decades. At the same time I replaced the preamp, I also replaced my Adcom 555-II power amp with the Stellar M700 monoblocks. Most of my listening has been with both the Stellar DAC/Pre and the M700s in the system, but I did briefly listen to the DAC/Pre feeding the Adcom amp and driving my Thiel 2.2 speakers. Replacing the Bryston preamp with the Stellar gave me sound that was much more open and dynamic than what the Bryston had been providing. Some of this effect may have been due to the DAC in the Stellar unit since I had been previously using a Parasound Z-DAC to feed the Bryston pre for either streaming or CDs.

Ignoring my unsystematic attempt to judge the effect of the Stellar DAC/Pre on its own, I can say that the "Stellar stack" as a system provides a much more alive and real sonic picture than my old gear. I have read some reviews that have described some "tube-like" characteristics coming from the Stellar gear. I don't have much experience with modern tube gear, but the Stellar components do not have a colored tube sound that some listeners enjoy. To me, the Stellar gear sounds neutral and musical. It provides good detail and transparency without being overly bright or fatiguing. I've also enjoyed the enhancement in bass impact and control, although I can't really separate out the effects of the preamp from the monoblocks. In listening to several different interconnects (both single-ended and balanced) between the Stellar DAC/Pre and M700 amps, I've found the Stellar gear to be very revealing of differences between interconnects. As an older guy who has grown tired of walking across the room just to adjust the preamp volume, I absolutely love having a remote control unit with the Stellar DAC/Pre. 

As far as the issue of the Gain Cell DAC/Pre being an affordable choice, I purchased the DAC/Pre directly from PS Audio as part of a system that also included the M700 monoblocks. The system price from the factory is $3999 as listed on the PS Audio website, but they allow a discount of up to $1200 for any gear traded in on that package. They actually credit you with the original new retail price of the gear you are trading in - not just the current used price of the gear. So I was able to trade in an old Denon CD player and get the "Stellar stack" of DAC/Pre and M700s for under $2799, which is an incredible bargain IMO. Buying the DAC/Pre alone is listed as $1699 at regular price, with a trade-in allowance of up to $510, so you can get the DAC/Pre for under $1200 from PS if you have something you want to trade in. As ronkent indicated, though, some current dealers may offer even lower prices given the upcoming elimination of the PS dealer network. 

hi TT,  i am a huge fan of their higher end gear,  but do not know much about the Stellar series except that it really is considered a  huge bang for the buck.

Guys - I would like to hear your opinions regarding the PS Stellar Gain Cell Pre and DAC for possible purchase as an affordable alternative to my sole Classé DR-6 preamp.

Among my requirements of detail and so forth is that neutrality is very important to my work. Please advise and comment.
Thanks, Tom

hey Guys,  for anybody interested in buying PS Audio gear,  now would be a great time.  PS Audio just announced they are going factory direct and there will be no more retail dealers.  That means the dealers are going to be heavily discounting the line to clear out inventory.  Three big boys would be:Music Direct,  UpScale Audio,  and Underwood Hifi.   Of course there are more but those are the big ones that i can think of.  This is from an email I received from Underwood:

Earlier this week PS Audio announced that they are going factory Direct and no longer selling thru US dealers. Therefore, after September 15th we will no longer be able to sell PS Audio products. PS pricing will stay the same once they are direct and they will not drop prices once this move is made.

unsound...

Yes, I live in a three house court so even local traffic is a rarity.  Right now the walls are an offish-antiquey white which is almost necessary because it can get close to pitch when conditions are right.  I will go just a tad more deeper in hue, a light cream methinks. I sit facing a wall where the stereo is that runs from 9 feet to 17 feet at the apex - that’s a LOTTA wall and that’s a LOTTA white. 


It hasn’t any effect sonically speaking, but listening in natural evening illumination is just...cool. 

beetlemania...


Yes, considering that they had been in a very small apartment the overall condition of the cabinets is very good.  There are a few very minor surface scratches, a swirl or two from a cloth wipe, but nothing that will concern me while listening from twelve feet away. (We measured.) They’re black lacquer finished, so the imperfection on the bottom of one speaker should be a simple cosmetic job.  


Yesterday morning my buyer on the Maggie MMGi’s showed up and we had the opportunity to do a quick comparison.  He was readily familiar and appreciative of Maggies as I am, but had never heard a Thiel before. To repeat the obvious, Thiels are Maggies with more bass. The 2.4’s filled in the bass at my preferred and conservative listening level, but we both felt that both delivered in spades the accurate and articulate mids and highs. 


Oddly enough, I found that the Maggies had a more defined “sweet spot”, quite small but more dialed in than the 2.4’s. It was an enjoyable comparison to say the least. 


I have the 2.4’s sitting atop a pair of maple blocks I had laying around - which was what the Maggies were on as well.  This raises them another 3 inches. This is probably  speaker heresy of some sort, but I compared listening to them on and off the blocks and, well, couldn’t hear any significant difference. I already have a series of holes in the floor on either side of the equipment cabinet from previous spikes, so I’m content to leave them on the blocks.  For now, anyway. 


So typical of many Thiel owners whom I’ve purchased from, the seller expressed he was relieved to know his were finding “a good home.”  This was not the first time I’ve heard that.  It will possibly be the last time because there ain’t nuttin’ making me sell these off. 


Down the road when and if I possess the scratch to consider the crossover upgrade I probably will. For now, mated to this absolutely excellent Belles 250i Integrated amp I could not be happier with the return of Thiel to my house.  I will remember my previous statement that Thiels are an investment, not a purchase THIS time.  These are going into my will. 

Wow, those CS2.4s look to be in excellent condition and have a really nice finish (same as my old 1.6s). $1500 is a very good price for the buyer.

there are pairs of 2.2's and 2.4's on audiogon if anyone missed them and needs a new speaker.  https://www.audiogon.com/listings?q=thiel

oblgny

Good to see you back in a pair of Thiel Audio loudspeakers, CS 2.4 model, no less. I hope to schedule a Transparent demo in the Fall. I really want to hear the Gen5 offerings. The MM and MM2 series are still very fine and viable. 
Keep me posted as you massage the CS 2.4 into your room/system.

Happy Listening!

Updated my virtual systems page...


Picked up the 2.4’s from seller in NYC.  It was a typical mid-August summer afternoon in the city, about 94 degrees with oppressive humidity. 3rd floor walk-up, tight stairwell, 5 landings and about 100 stairs. (At least it felt that way.)



Original owner, all paperwork, manual, floor spikes, AND a spare midrange/tweeter driver!  That wasn’t mentioned in his eBay listing.  Very cool beans. 


Did my bestest 62 year old he-man imitation and picked those 70 pound cabinets up by myself, taking a break on every other landing to catch my breath and wipe the sweat from my brow.  Total travel time, payment, removal, and set up in me house?  Four hours. 


(I once sold off a pair of CS3.5’s because I found them to be “too heavy” to futz around with. Umm, these 2.4’s weigh EXACTLY the same.)  But the slightly taller cabinets make futzing just a touch simpler. 


So here I am, back with another excellent pair of Thiel loudspeakers once again - this time for keeps. I ain’t kidding.  

prof,

Agree!  
My 3.5s didn't project this way.  The 27s and SS2.2 sub have made me a very happy camper. 

George

I continue to be happy with and amazed by the dispersion characteristics of my 2.7s.  Having been playing them for several guests, all of us seated along the listening sofa, the tonality remains so consistent from seat to seat, and they still manage to image for everyone.

They also sound particularly good from outside the listening room in my hallway.  My speakers face the front of the house, and when outside that room down the hall, that puts you with the speakers both in another room and facing away from you.   My Spendor speakers and my old Thiel 02s are more directional, so they sound more dulled from behind the speakers or outside the room.  Especially the Spendor speakers sound more like "speakers" in hearing more of the back-radiated sound/port.

With the 2.7s they continue to sound so open tonally you'd still think they were facing you.  They sound outside the room like they do inside the room - the same sense of "no speaker there, just the sound occurring in the space."  It's quite fascinating actually.

Hello batmanfan!

I have a pair of Thiel CS 2.4s powered by a Bryston 3B ST fronted by a Bryston BP20 preamp.   Speaker cables are Transparent Music Wave Super Gen MM.  Interconnects are Kimber Hero XLR.

Almost all of my listening is in the digital domain (only exception is an old Rotel analog tuner).   Although I have a very good CD player,
a Bryston BCD-1, I rarely use it.  All of my CDs have been ripped as uncompressed FLACs.   My listening is via either these ripped CDs or via TIDAL.
 
My digital supply chain consists of the following:
Hard wired ethernet connection (albeit utilizing Netgear powerline ethernet adapters) into Melco N1A.  All of my FLACs reside on the Melco which functions as a NAS, a streamer, and not unimportantly as an ethernet line conditioner.  Melco feeds Chord Qutest DAC via Curious USB cable, as well as a Bluesound Node 2i hooked up to Melco's outbound player port via Audioquest Cinamon ethernet cable.  The Bluesound player feeds the Qutest via Tributaries Coax and my older Bryston BDA-1 DAC via Audioquest Vodka Toslink.
I typically stream directly from Melco when listening to my ripped CDs, and employ Bluesound Node when either streaming from TIDAL or streaming to multiple rooms (have Bluesound kit in 3 other rooms in the house).  Chord Qutest feeds preamp via Audioquest Black Mamba II RCAs.

I am very happy with this setup.  

Have yet to go Roon, but definitely considering it.  Thinking about acquiring Roon Nucleus, at which point I'd have Melco feed Nucleus from its ethernet player port, and then have Nucleus feed Chord Qutest directly via USB.   

unsound...

I’m pretty much with you on the meters thing, but for reasons including your opinion and others. I kinda enjoy music a little bit more when my living room is practically dark,  illuminated only by the evening outside the window.  My neighborhood doesn’t have streetlights, is heavily treed, so it can get pretty dark under the right conditions. 


I sit 10-11 feet away from my speakers and the last thing I want to look at is a miniature replication of a city scape sitting atop my equipment cabinet. The Belles integrated I am enjoying now has but two small LED’s on its faceplate, one for on/off, one for mute. Using either one makes it disappear.  Noice. 


It’s kinda like the way new automobiles are. I see something “new” added to the “experience” and I immediately think, “Oh, that’s gonna be the first thing to break.”  I had a sedan with a/c’d seats. Nice. Broke. Expensive to fix. One with a heated steering wheel - very nice touch. Broke. Damn. 


On a somewhat similar note - why do some manufacturers position the on/off button on the rear of the cabinet?  Drives me crazy...

Thanks @holco. Never heard of Audio-gd, but am open to taking a look and will look at their products.  The price is really reasonable.  Has anyone else here used their preamps or DACs?

Thank you for the suggestion, jafant. My brother is starting to get into the hobby, despite my warnings of endless tweaking and empty pockets, hehe, and I may end up giving him my 9000es.  (Will tell him to stock up on parts.) Been looking at going all digital, but I don't think I've done it right--the SQ seems weak.  Not sure if it's because of the Anthem DAC, or perhaps the source.  I've been using my Mac Mini and ripping CDs at ALAC (Apple's lossless codec).  Perhaps the SACDs just sound so much better?  I didn't think there is an audible difference, so I'm thinking it's something else.  Either that, or its just the synergy of the 9000es SACD player with my system.  Will continue tweaking.

For those who have gone all digital and find the results acceptable (or preferable to physical discs such as CDs or SACDs), what have you used from source to the amp?  The Thiels are famous (or notorious) for being very revealing, so it's most likely sounding out a weakness in my chain from source to amp (don't think it's the amp to speaker).  Appreciate everyone's thoughts.

beetlemania...

Hahaha.  Good reply.  I just sold my Maggie MMGi’s off here on the site in just 3 hours.  Took a single re- list to sell the Audio Research DSi200 Integrated sole, but that was $1300 greater.  C’est la vie. 


What my “settling down” means is that I am not going to chase the Audio dragon any longer.  I had some fine setups in the past, but my curiosity - and available funds at the time - had me buying/selling too much stuff to mention. 


My happenstance discovery of the Belles integrated is what compelled me to actively seek a pair of Thiels. 
I moved from Maggies to Thiels before so I know in advance this time around that I will have an extraordinarily good setup - and all for under $3K. 


I’m picking up the CS2.4’s tomorrow afternoon.  The guy who purchased my Maggies might be picking them up later in the day. Talk about timing...


In order for me to get the same sort of articulation and accuracy I am getting from the Belles I would have to spend much, much more.  A LOT. I been dere, I done that. I learned. 


I am realllllllllly looking forward to hearing this amp sing through the Thiels. 

batmanfan

It takes a while for the BP17 cubed to break in. Although Bryston runs each one for 100 hours, I ran mine for another 100-150, as it gradually improved over time.
I exchanged a BP-26 for the 17 cubed.  No contest. 

Disclaimer: I listen to classical music, with country and bluegrass a significant minority. No synthetic music or hard rock. 

I’m settling in, down, planting myself!

This is almost where I am. My modded 2.4s sound superb. I would probably have to drop at least $30k to better them in any meaningful way. My amp is killer, would have to $$$pend to get better performance there, too. The reason I wrote “almost” is because I am in line to get my Ayre DAC upgraded to latest version. After that I have zero plans to change my system in any way. 

jafant...
I’m still with the cheap-seats Transparent cables. I’ve yet to find a reason to concern myself with anything else. 


I am not going to head down the same road I did since joining this site.  It’s almost embarrassing how much stuff I’ve sold and bought here. This Belles is excellent.  I will play around with cables, maybe, down the road. I’m settling in, down, planting myself!

batmanfan

I use an Audio GD Master 3 power amp on my CS 2.4 loudspeakers with IMHO great results on any loudspeaker I ever had.

http://www.audio-gd.com/Master/Master-32019/Master-32019EN.htm

Review of the Master 10, same power amp but with a preamp integrated. 

https://darko.audio/2013/03/audio-gd-master-10-w-magnepan-mmg-6moons/

http://6moons.com/audioreviews/magnepan2/4.html

Thank you brayeagle—got those 28s used! I will definitely audition the BP17s, thanks for that suggestion. I also took a quick look at the SP4s and while the specs look incredible, I just can’t drop that much coin on tech that seems to change so much. @Prof, I’m actually very much interested in looking at options outside of Anthem and Bryston, and hopefully I’ll get some more feedback on what people have liked with their SS amps and Thiels. I’m a little nervous getting into tubes as I’d just be a noobie in that area. I don’t know how long they last, if tubes need to be replaced often, they look so delicate, are used tubes reliable, etc. Certainly this fear comes from ignorance and I’m the first to admit that I’m probably going to just stick with what I know and have used in the past: solid state. That said, if I can find more time to lean about tube preamps and can save up some money, I may venture into this arena. @Prof, what preamp do you use?

Boy oh boy, people here sure like Bryston amplification more than I do :)
(Strictly speaking it's not a problem with Bryston which are very competent amplifiers.  I guess it's just that having owned Bryston, having friends using Bryston etc, for me that brand is the "poster child" for solid state amp sound, and I'm an inveterate tube amp guy when given the choice).

batmanfan

I'm running  Thiel 2.7s with a Bryston 4B cubed amp and BP17 cubed preamp.  IMO, Bryston preamps and amps were made for each other. 
(I envy you with those 28B monos!)

The BP 17 cubed can be ordered as a stand alone preamp, with an excellent DAC, with an excellent Phono stage, or with both. 

Just a thought

George

Hi Everyone,
My Anthem AVM20 pre/pro that I’ve had for over 15 years has just died. Originally, I was using my system for 75-80% HT and the remainder 2-ch. since then it’s now about 50/50. I’m looking for some thoughts on a pre/pro or preamp that has good synergy with my current setup, which I have slowly upgraded:
- Thiel 2.7s
- Bryson 28B2 monos
- Goertz Alpha Core AG3 speaker cables and Straightwire ICs
- Sony SCD-XA9000ES sacd player
- A dead Anthem AVM 20
- Martin Logan Descent sub
- and some cheap Sony blu-Ray player the model of which I can’t recall, lol!
I’d be open to going with a stereo preamp right now given that there seems to be a lot of change with HT at the moment with the evolution of object-based surround sound. In fact, I was originally going to get the Anthem AVM 60 but then Marantz came out with their 8805, then Emotiva with their RMC-1, and soon Monoprice with their 16-channel option...its enough to make my head spin!  Let me know what pre/pro or preamp you guys have heard (or possess) that has sounded good with a similar SS setup!

beetlemania...

Yup - I decided to accept the counteroffer immediately so I wouldn’t risk blowing the opportunity. 


Black ain’t exactly my color preference but hey, right now I’ve got the Maggie MMGi’s in place and their panel is all black.  The Thiels are narrower. Whomever is  gonna see the sides ain’t listenin’, anyhoo. 


Looks like I might have a little touching up to do on the base - otherwise the photos appear to show the cabinets in all around acceptable shape. 


I’m practically giddy.  I am so impressed with this integrated and how it delivers through the Maggies. 
It has a fairly robust separate power supply that attaches to the integrated with an umbilical. 



I’m running Transparent cabling on the Oppo CD player, the Bluesound Node, and the Peachtree Audio DaciT. The speaker cables are JW Cryonova 8 footers which are very similar to Anti-cables appearance wise.  I like these types of cables because I am able to route them without them touching other surfaces. 


All this under $3k. Woohoo. 

@obglny, FWIW, I have next to no confidence in the meters commonly found on consumer grade gear, regardless of the price and/or reputation of the manufacturer. They are almost never calibrated and often mislead consumers to erroneous conclusions. They are, IMHO, more often than not just extraneous light shows adding just another expensive part to wear out, break and need replacement. 

Yes, drivers look great. You have to be OK with black but I think $1550 is a deal. Listing says they’re sold, Hope that’s you!

Beetlemania...

The speakers appear to be in good to very good shape cosmetically except for one speaker having some imperfections at the base. The drivers appear to be in excellent shape - at least via the photos supplied. The buyer has 100% positive feedback on eBay - as do I,  so I’m going to sleep on it and make the decision in the morning.  


The seller countered with $1550. Methinks that’s the best I can expect to hear for these. You’ve pointed out a lot of what impressed me about Thiel from my first pair of 2.2.  And now, with the option of upgrading them via Tom Thiel - down the road a bit - I will be able to restate that Thiel is an investment, not a purchase. 


Thanks for the the additional info. 

@oblgny 

If those 2.4s have undamaged drivers and 7+ cabinet they are probably worth the asking price. Doesn’t matter about the SE or not. Most of the SE features were cosmetic (the finish *is* stunning). The only change affecting the sonics was use of Clarity Cap SAs on the coax feeds. In fact, some older 2.4s might have otherwise higher parts quality than the SE. Regardless, I promise you Tom Thiel’s upgrade will be head and shoulders beyond that. 

I recently had the opportunity to hear a couple of uber $peaker$ and the experience confirmed my impressions: in terms of resolution, transparency, soundstaging, and neutrality, my modded 2.4s sound as good as the best I’ve heard.

Not surprisingly, the 2.4s can’t match the bass performance of $$$ designs. And not simply bass extension (the 2.4 has energy down to about 30 cycles which covers nearly all musical content). In particular, a sealed box design I heard has a clear step up on the Thiel’s passive radiator. Bass definition/ articulation was notably better via sealed box. That said, I consider the passive radiator to have a good mix of tradeoffs considering their price point (when I got the 2.4s, the first thing I noticed was tighter bass compared to my Vandersteen 2Ce Sig IIs).

The uber designs also have a more tangible image density. One speaker, retailing for about $80k, had an unbounded, open sound that was exquisite. And I’ve previously  heard a $peaker that recreated the sense of hall space on live recordings in a way that no other has.

Would I trade my 2.4s for the $80k model? Yes, I would. Can I afford the $80k model? Not even close! It’s quite amazing how much SQ Jim Thiel brought to regular working people. The 2.4 is a speaker that working class people can realistically afford. And Tom Thiel’s XO upgrade brings the performance on par with the best I’ve heard in the parameters that are most important to me: resolution and transparency. The weaknesses I outlined above are minor. The $$$ designs showed me a few places where they outperform my 2.4s but they never left me feeling my speakers are broken or deficient in any way. I just bliss out to music on a system that is paid for!

Highly recommended :)

Happy Friday! All

beetlemania...
Your post regarding driving your CS2.4's was MOST appreciated at this moment because I am about to tender an offer on a pair that's available locally here in New York.  (not the SE version) I just sold my Audio Research DSi200 integrated to assist funding it.  The seller is asking $1800. I'm offering $1400 - we'll see what develops.
My listening levels are pretty much in line with your own.  While I do listen at louder levels every once in a while,  most of my listening is done very conservatively.  Example:  I once sold a Threshold amplifier at a serious discount because I thought the meters were broken.  After the sale the buyer contacted me to say nothing was wrong - I just never listened loudly enough to get the meters moving.
At this moment I am once again enjoying the Maggie experience.  I love Maggies and I love Thiel.  My Maggie MMGi's frequency response is 50hz - 20khz - not much downstairs at my preferred listening volume.  Pushed a little bit,  just above that zone they do fill in nicely.  I can feel the bass.  But at lower volume...I find myself wanting.

Thiels do a much better job at reproducing that "feel" of the bass at lower listening levels - at least IMHO.  I'd keep these Maggies otherwise,  but this pair of 2.4's is tantalizing.
I'll be keeping the Belles 250i integrated.  Based on my previous experience with Thiel and Magnepan I just know this will be a fine synergy.  This Belles is outstanding.

Clear and Beetle - thanks for the good question and the excellent answer and sorry to compress both into such a short two-word summary "radical divergence".

What is "radical divergence"

Some people like to listen at very high SPLs and have large rooms. They will need a LOT of power. Some people have smaller rooms and listen at moderate levels. They will need hardly any power.

I did some calculations for my CS2.4s. Thiel claimed a minimum impedance of 3 ohms and three reviewers measured the minimum ranging ~2.7-3.1 ohms. Assuming a *constant* 2.9 ohm load (a worst case scenario as the impedance dips this low only for part of the frequency spectrum) and ignoring room interactions, I need about 5.5 watts for 85 dB at the listening position, ~20 W for 90 dB, ~50 for 95 dB, and ~180 W for 100 dB. I estimate my amp clips at ~97 dB. But I very rarely ask for more than 90 dB peaks and most of my listening probably only requires 2-5 W. My amp has plenty of headroom for my listening preferences. Others may need more power. If you demand 105 dB peaks (sorry for your ears), you may need 500-750 W with something like the CS2.4, depending on room interactions!

So, someone like me needs <50 W but some others may need an order of magnitude more power. Radical divergence.

tomthiel"I can't answer that question due to the radical divergence of individual needs"

What is "radical divergence" that does not make any sense to me but English is not my first language so I ask you politely, respectfully, and sincerely to explain this term.

Todd - I can't answer that question due to the radical divergence of individual needs. Big room and/or loud level can magnify power requirements by large multiples.
That said, unlike other circuit topologies, the power stays absolutely clean until it quits - limited by fast protection circuitry.My situation is unusual in that my studio has 2 real, exterior walls, but the interior walls are porous, allowing few reflections or standing waves. The ceiling and floor are normally framed and therefore somewhat lossy. The studio occupies a corner of a 30'x50'x8' space which is open to similar spaces above and below it. So my listening environment is effectively quite large. My peak listening volumes never exceed 100dB, usually around 85.

In normal 100w/c stereo mode, the clip lights have rarely flickered, but have never tripped. In 400w/c bridged mode I have not reached any limit. So, the AHB-2 acts like a larger amp than it measures, probably due mostly to staying clean all the way to max, rather than gradually increasing distortion as most amps do.

Benchmark offers a generous home trial audition. I suggest you A/B it in your system with full send-back guarantee.

Tom - I've been considering an upgrade to my Classe CA-300 that powers my 3.7s, so I checked out the specs to the Benchmark amp you listed. The short question I have is: is this enough power? Obviously you consider that to be the case, but in an arena where many consider the large Krells to be normative, would the Benchmark keep up? Thanks for your thoughts.Todd

Arvincastro - my comments might be from left field, since I don't have much direct comparison to hi fi gear. For my work upgrading classic Thiels, I wanted 3 dissimilar amps for cross-checking upgrades. My main amps are Classe DR-6 pre and a pair of DR-9 power amps, which I have used for 30 years, know very well, and mate well with Thiels. In 1990 they were pretty decent entry-level high end with strong reviews. In addition I recently bought an Adcom GFA-555mkII, which to me represents a mid-fi amp with some hi-fi cred. My reference amp settled as a pair of Benchmark AHB-2s. That amp is primarily a pro amp, turns up in a lot of mixing and mastering studios, plus got Class A ratings from Stereophile, Absolute Sound, etc. Its claim to fame is absolute neutrality and vanishing distortion in a small, affordable, Class H package. I don't know what hi-fi aficionados think of it; I have asked here to no response, and I haven't seen it in the chatter. I am pleased with it as a colorless, honest straight wire with gain. FWIW.  

arvincastro,

I have been very pleased with how the PS Audio Stellar M700 Monoblocks match up with my Thiel 2.2 speakers. Bass control and impact are excellent, and the mids and highs are dynamic and highly musical. Of course, the overall sound is also influenced by the Stellar Gain Cell DAC/Pre that feeds my M700s. At the same time, I have heard nothing but positive comments about how well a tube preamp can work with the M700s and with Thiels in general, so I'm sure your tube gear would mate well with class D monoblocks.