Oh Boy!
I did not mean to create any controversy about speaker wire or transports! Let me try to explain my last couple of posts.
My Thiel CS5's fell into my lap as a good local deal and started an exploration of how good the CS5's could sound. First, there was a two year process to get to an amp that I felt could power the CS5's without breaking my bank/space. Then I worked on room acoustics but could not tame a shrillness in the treble.
At that point I received some good advice from another CS5 owner regarding ladder DACs. I found a Theta ProBasic III, which eliminated the shrillness and sounded more organic to me.
I was still aiming for that live, nuanced presence so I tried upgrading to a PS Audio PerfectWave transport and was amazed at how the increased detail improved the "aliveness" of the sound.
At the same time, another thread suggested I try higher gauge speaker wire that yielded more detail and an improvement as corroborated by recent postings on this thread.
My transport post was simply trying to elicit advice on how to maximize the sound of the CS5's. I am thinking CS 6 and 7 owners might have cool stuff to share.
The suggestions from bray eagle about Belden Iconoclast cables and vair68robert about Cardas 9.5 stranded litz are both news to me and appreciated!
Thanks for listening,
Dsper
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tomthiel
Thank You for the field report. Yes, this is a challenging time of year for travel. You are a brave Soul indeed. Hope the rest of your time is well spent prior to returning home.
Happy Listening! |
dsper
Anytime is the right time for Cabling discussion. Wether you wish to persue the DIY route or aftermarket, there is something for everyone. We have a few members of the Panel who enjoy the DIY aspect offering plenty of information in this thread. Equally, there are other members of the Panel who enjoy the aftermarket companies. No right or wrong approaches regarding cabling. Take your time, demo all interests and have fun in process! Good to see you here.
Happy Listening! |
tmsrdg,
I'm not turning the thread in to a cable debate. I don't want to go in to any depth on cables 'n stuff in this thread. That's why I made such a short comment.
But on the subject of merely talking about these things, I believe you have an imbalanced and biased sense of proportion: I simply added my voice to anyone else's opinions on the subject.
Why is, for instance, your opinion to be the default - automatically favored over mine? Why is your experience to be seen as veridical, and a relevant data point, but mine and my experience counts for nothing?
Why is it any less "tedious" to hear a constant throng of "every material sounds different/all cables/tweaks change the sound?" With no counterpoint to it?
This hobby comprises audiophiles who have a range of opinions and experience supporting those opinions. Why should your own version be the default, which can be explicated over and over, yet someone more on the continuum of being skeptical (for good reasons) should just sit down and shuddup?
When someone asks about cables, or in this case particularly about spending money on transports and which server "sounds best," he is sure to get many opinions about how to spend that money. I'm simply adding in one other perspective "you *might* want to consider that you are considering quite a lot of money for something that is controversial and for which the claims can be fairly dubious.*
It was people who added that voice to discussions like this who helped folks like me figure out where allocating my money made the most sense. No one has to do as I do. But it's good to hear other viewpoints, rather than live in an echo-chamber IMO.
BTW, you might consider dialing back the insults ("cognitively challenged" analogy). Doesn't help anything.
Cheers.
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prof, re your reply to Dsper above: it's getting somewhat tedious to constantly read the same thing from you on cables. We all know how you feel, no need for constant reiteration. It's like saying over and over "I'm cognitively challenged and I expect everyone else to be too!" My wife and I, both professional classical musicians, have done the A-B test with numerous cables, amps, cd players and etc. There has never been any problem whatsoever in identifying different cables selected randomly from a list of say, 6. My wife (or me) selects a cable, the other person closes their eyes, opens them when the system is turned back on, and, no problem identifying the exact cable. Just like there is no problem hearing the difference between the Steinway 12 feet away from our 3.7s and the Thiels themselves. I have to say, thankfully, that's a small difference...
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@brayeagle , beyond mine as well. |
unsound,
Just under 2K for pair of 8 foot speaker cables. Well beyond my comfort level.
George
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Thanks Tom for your comments on the 7 vs 7.2. Would also love to hear your and others thoughts on how the 7s and the 5i compare.
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Dsper, I am interested in other Thiel owner opinions regarding transports and
DACs and at what point a listener needs to start playing with
interconnects. You don't need to play with either. (And certainly not transports...and streamers/servers don't 'have a sound of their own' if they are operating properly). But from what you wrote, I don't think that's the point of view you are looking for. It's your money ;-) |
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Hi Dsper, I'm a great believer in quality multi-strand cabling for audio frequencies. That's why I've used Belden stock for years. (Disclaimer: I have no financial nor proprietary interests in Belden.) Recently, Belden has offered a new stock, specifically aimed at the audio high-end market. It looks very interesting as an alternative to some of the exorbitantly priced mumbo jumbo cables designed to separate a HiFi addict from his hard earned dollars. I found the explanation of this Belden Iconoclast cable to be reasonable; however, since I haven't auditioned any system using these new cables, I can't vouch for the increase in performance over what I now use. If you're interested: https://www.iconoclastcable.comJust my ancient two cents George |
dsper
since you discovered that 10 gauge stranded copper wire sounds good to you then I would suggest trying Cardas 9.5 gauge stranded litz
wire , only $6.50 a foot for 6n copper with the Cardas multi size strands.
this is on my dyi list after I finish upgrading my DNA-250 amp .
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Hi brayeagle, I found your post about speaker wiring: "...
I began to use DYI speaker and interconnects - - top Belden wire with the best connectors I could get...Belden AWG 10 for speaker wiring..." I just replaced 16 gauge lamp cord on my Thiel CS5's with 10 gauge multi-strand copper wire and I can hear an improvement! Better detail that provides more decay and presence.
It got me to thinking about why I believed lamp cord was good enough and recalled that I had looked at Roger Russell's "Speaker Wire" discussions http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm. This was back when I was listening to easier to drive speakers like Advents, Paradigms, and Magnepans. If I had thought to refer to Roger's "
Maximum Wire Lengths For TWO CONDUCTOR Copper Wire" chart when I purchased the CS5's, I would have been hearing better music for the last couple of years! Thanks for listening, Dsper |
JA - our time was quite limited, a wreck on the expressway cost us over two hours late arrival. Most of our time covered tech. Rob has original driver and product testing rigs and much deeper stock than I had imagined. He has all the development prototypes from Cs3.5 on. At CSS he has a showroom/office, adequate for the job of comparison. We didn’t make it home where is we’ll hi Fi-Ed. At CSS he has Bryson cubed series. ThielRules might know the gear particulars. TR was there as well as Tammy, long-time driver-maker, and Jeremy Kling, son of Walter Kling, co-originator and Mfgr Director after I left. We all compared 7s to 7.2s and considered them co-equal. Concrete and polymer baffles are equally inert- deader than CS5. Sound is preferential- only. 7 is gentler,7.2is more incisive. We heard equal detail. Jim was working on a 7.3 and I suspect a goal was to mitigate the “in your face” tendency of the 7.2. Best I’ve heard. |
tomthiel
Looking forward to the report. If you can take a few notes on electronics/gear in Rob's set up? Does he have a sound lab or showroom at CSS? Or, are you guys auditioning at his personal residence? Safe travels and have fun!
Happy Listening! |
It seems to me that Thiel renaissance is on the way, that's good, very good to hear.Thanks Tom, what best christmas gift could we wish?Maybe we will see Tom and Rob together in a new enterprise, if this is the case I wish all the best to both of you.I already have dealed with Rob twice, can witness he is a strongly recommendable and competent guy. About Tom His name and career speak for him.
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Hi tomthiel, jayant, fitter, asturias & others,
If anyone is in the N. CA area, you're welcome to audition my 7.2s, which have been described by the former local distributor of Thiels, as the "best 7.2s on the planet by far". Not bragging, just sharing.
I also own 2.3s which have been very competent. Great to see such enthusiasm! Happy Holidays all! Keith aka kld236
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Guys - I am traveling and booked solid. I’ll report early next week.
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tomthiel
Good to read that you reached Lexington safe and sound. Thank You for the preliminary report. Give Rob our best and have fun!
Happy Listening! |
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Tom -- speaking as a 3.7 owner, and presuming for all of us here as well, yes, I think we are all waiting with baited breath to read your extended thoughts on this latest Lexington Thiel encounter!
Todd
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Tom that’s great to hear about cs7s please elaborate more on your impressions of the 7s vs the 7.2s and any other info you may have learned on your trip. |
Hi,
I am interested in other Thiel owner opinions regarding transports and DACs and at what point a listener needs to start playing with interconnects.
My recent journey included using an AudioSpace CD8A as transport and a Ric Schultz modified Oppo 105 in my system (Prima Luna Dialogue Premium preamp, McCormack DNA-500 amp, Thiel CS5 speakers, and Synergistic Research and Cullen interconnects).
Anyway, things were not sounding right to me.
I have two great dealers in my area who let me try various components at home. Over several weeks I auditioned a Naim CD5si, Levinson 390S, Rega DAC R, Bryston BDA1, and a fairly recent PS Audio DAC, do not recall which one.
I also listened in the showroom to an Esoteric streamer that lists for like $7,500. Just too clinical for my taste - all detail but no music - no PRAT.
I ended up with a Hegel HD25 that I also had auditioned; and paired that with the AudioSpace as the transport. This sounded passable for a while until I decided the treble was just too sharp.
It had been suggested to me from a fellow Audiogoner to try a R2R ladder DAC so I acquired a vintage Theta ProBasic III. This was a wow moment for me because it provided a more detailed and nuanced sound with much less treble sharpness.
Then I acquired a PS Audio Perfectwave Transport, which was another wow moment. Combined with the Theta DAC, the detail and presence went up another whole level. And I do mean wow.
So my question is how do I get closer to a "live" sound? Is it a different transport or DAC? Or is it time to adjust what I have through different interconnects? Most of my equipment upgrade experience has resulted in wow moments so I have not paid much attention to interconnects....
Your advice and comments, please.
Thanks for listening,
Dsper
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Preliminary report from Lexington. Rob is well equipped and stocked with knowledge, experience and parts. A truckload of spare parts was delivered from Audio Consultants - what a score!
We spent some time comparing CS7 to 7.2. More discussion can follow; don’t hesitate to score a good deal on the original 7s.
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andy2
Very cool project going on out there. Thank You for posting all of the links.
Looking forward to the operational prototype. Have fun!
Happy Listening! |
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Someone pointed me to Bang & Olufsen Uni-Phase xover design. At least based on theory, the filter will be able to achieve 0 degree phase shift across the frequency band, hence the name Uni-Phase. I have not seen the step response but the square waves all look very good - not too unlike that from a time-phase coherent/time-coincident design. Unlike the Thiel or Vandersteen, though, the Uni-Phase uses 2nd order filters, not first order filters. The advantage is 2nd order does not stress out the drivers as much as first order filter. For reference :
https://www.tonmeister.ca/wordpress/2015/10/29/bo-tech-uni-phase-loudspeakers/
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A Blessed and a Happy Thanksgiving for all our USA friends.
George
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tomthiel
Safe travels to Lexington. Looking forward in reading about your visit with Rob. Have fun!
Happy Listening! |
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I was playing around with a three-way mock-up. Basically I use a setup with what I already have. Making the cabinets would just take a lot of time. The tweeter is ScanSpeak AirCir, Seas Nextel 5.5in. as mid, and Scanspeak Illuminator 5.5 in as woofer. I don’t current have a dedicate cabinet for 8in. woofer but the freq/phase behavior should not be that different. Measurement was done at 1Meter distant between the tweeter and the mid which is about 33in. high. There are quite a bit of ripples on the freq. response probably due to room reflection which also shown in the step response being taking a bit longer time to settle at the low frequencies. The xover seems a bit complicated, but that’s typical of first order, time-phase coherent, time-coincident speakers. The 50uf cap on the tweeter should only affect the lower freq. so it probably will be OK. Actually I don’t need it there for freq. response, but I put it there to protect the tweeter. Pic: https://www.flickr.com/photos/185616271@N05/49129808921/in/album-72157711891600612/ Xover:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/185616271@N05/49129320988/in/album-72157711891600612/
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I just purchased cs 7s I am very happy with them and they are a big improvement over my 3.6s I had. that being said my bryston 4b is not able to make them sing like it did with the 3.6s while I’m sure the 7.2s are better for me I couldn’t justify the difference in price And would rather use the money towards a bigger and better amp.
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I’m on my way to visit Rob where we’ll audition lots of models including cs7 vs cs7.2. Rob says concrete vs composite are the same. I’ll form my opinion Wednesday.
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Also note (not sure of the date) that the initial 7.2s had a concrete baffles (the ones I previously owned did not). My understanding (could be wrong and it was a long time ago) is that there were some problems in shipping them to the Far East (cracking). I believe there was about a 15 pound difference in the weight of each speaker having the composite baffle vs. the concrete one (which was the one that weighed 15 pounds more). There's probably threads on the concrete vs. the composite one and people's impressions, although I'd imagine that would be a very hard comparison unless there were 2 sets of 7.2s in the room with the same system. For those looking at used ones, don't forget hifishark.com. I go there probably once a week or so (not that I need anything with all my systems but it doesn't hurt to look). |
Thanks for the very fast responses. It is good to see that the Thiels still have a solid group of followers. Very happy for the late Jim Thiel. So it seems the 7.2 is the one to get. I should pass on the CS7 deal then, hmm.. |
kld236
Welcome! Thank You for assisting asturias00 query. Good to read that you enjoy the CS 7.2 loudspeaker. I look forward in reading more about your musical tastes.
Happy Listening! |
Asturias,
I have 7.2s! They're absolutely fabulous in my system due to many factors. So coherent, detailed, and neutral. I supplement them with Enigma super tweeters and a pair of SVS PB4000 subs. I have PPT E Cards on the driver magnets. Enhanced Oppo 105, Jeff Rowland's PSU, DAC & Corus Pre, PPT everything everywhere, incl The Gate. Bybee iQSE v2s for atmosphere energizing. Exotic power cables and supply. Analysis Plus interconnects and loudspeaker cables. (and more...) Buy them if you can find them! They're a testimony of the late great Jim Thiel's magnificent work. Good luck. |
cascadesphil
Thank You for the assist. Happy Listening! |
There are other other threads on a 7 vs. 7.2 - e.g.
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/upgrade-thiel-7-s-to-7-2-sI have known people who had 7s and opted to upgrade to the 7.2s when the 7.2s were released. I've personally never heard the 7s, but I did buy my 7.2s when they were new and sold them when the 3.7s first came out. |
asturias00
Welcome! I believe that there is at least one 7.2 owner here. Stay tuned until a 5i or 7.2 expert addresses your query. Good to see you.
Happy Listening! |
Need help from the Thiel experts. I have listened to and liked the 5i in the past. A 7 is available locally, what are the sonics difference between the two? Is one considered superior to another? And how is the 7 compared to the 7.2? Would appreciate any inputs, thanks! |
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Have you heard Ryan Speakers based in Riverside CA? Try to catch an audition and post your impressions here. Similar to a Thiel without being a pure first order filter design.
Thanks for the heads up. But if they are too high-end, I won't be able to afford it :-) |
andy2
Have you heard Ryan Speakers based in Riverside CA? Try to catch an audition and post your impressions here. Similar to a Thiel without being a pure first order filter design.
Happy Listening!
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harrylavo
I listen at moderate levels when in the sweet spot, but my listening room is a general media room that opens to the rest of the house. So I am often blasting the music loud to listen from the rest of the house. My CJ premier 12s (140w tube) had no problem driving either the 3.7s or 2.7s to house-shaking levels, while sounding clean.
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harrylavo
Good to see you again. Thiel speakers are sonic matches for ARC, CJ, PS Audio, VAC and VTL (short-list). Over on Audio Asylum, owners enjoy Aesthetix, Octave and Rogue Audio w/ Thiel loudspeakers. The Tube camp is well represented.
Happy Listening!
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andy2
Nice! work describing phase coherence, time coherence. Cool diagrams as well. Happy Listening!
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Since the issue of tubes driving Thiels has come up, I want to add a bit of experience. When I first bought my 3.5's, I used an Audio Research D90, and volume was never a problem. Later, in a much larger listening space, I used VTL ST-85s, and again volume was not a problem. I must caution, however, that when I say "not a problem" I am talking about jazz, chamber music, 60's-70's singer-songwriter, etc. I do not generally listen to hard rock, and while I play fully symphony orchestras I tend to keep the playback at comfortable levels.
I also will relate that when I obtained my 2 2's, for about a year I drove them with a Fisher 202 integrated tube amp putting out 35wpc. Again in an average size condo living room and at reasonable levels. (This combo sounded fantastic, btw).
Take this for what it is worth. But I guess it puts me in the camp of Thiels are okay with tubes. |
Phase Coherence is used in various ways by various people for various purposes.
I understand. I am personally got lost with all the different terminologies.
Very simple and very difficult!
Being working on DIY, it usually takes me much more time than a typical high order speaker. But still, I hope more speaker manufacturers will do it. It may be very difficult but not impossible. I think it's just an "excuse" that most people won't try it. I was thinking about how our hearing may not be so sensitive to high frequencies and the high freq. phase shift. In our normal environment, high freq. is very reflective and when sound reflects, its phase will get change as well. Also diffraction will cause delay in high freq. and phase shift as well. If human is sensitive to these, it would drive us crazy. That's why our hearing is only sensitive to long delay, not short delay, and the long delay we hear is what we call "echo". Imagine if we listen to high order speaker and we hear all "echo", I guess that would not be very good :-) But having said all that, I still think time-phase coherent could make a difference, and if I could, my speaker would be all time coherent. |
