I'd guess the overpowering sound was due to distortion when the drivers were pushed outside their normal range. It's an interesting problem to have. I've found it's distortion that hurts the ears. I can crank my ATCs up really high but because they're made to play very loudly without distortion it doesn't create the discomfort just about any other speaker would. 115db continuous is loud! http://atcloudspeakers.co.uk/professional/loudspeakers/scm110asl-pro/ |
Rob - I will be most interested in your 15.5 to 17.5 gauge comparison.
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Tom
Plugging the pass thru holes for the speaker wires solved the mystery
of why when I turned up the volume the mid and upper range frequencies became overpowering .
The magic has returned .
I was focusing and blaiming the sound unbalance on the increase in wire gauge , my electronics backround blinded me I guess .
Using your recommendation I'm still going to reduce the tweeter
wire gauge to 17.5 for a listen ,
I can always go back to 15.5 .
While it can be frustrating and not always fun ,
the end results have been worth it .
I can honestly say that working on an amp in much more
straight forward than on a speaker .
Rob
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tomthiel
Second, Thank You for being our consummate body of knowledge and wisdom here. Hope you are well today and having fun in your hot rod garage/studio.
Happy Listening! |
Rob,,
Sealing between the chambers is important for impulse integrity. If open, the woofer air pressure yanks the midrange around - not good. You can temporarily seal well enough with Mortite or bowl putty.
When I came to New Hampshire in 1996, we had local long-hair wool production in the village. I looked into it for speakers as a venture prospect. I also read the British, etc. opinions which are widespread and respected. But I was never convinced given my own experience. I anecdotally attribute the "British Bloat" partially to the tendency of wool to decouple below about 100 Hz. Changing batting isn't on my radar, but who knows? We never know.
Wire gauge is part of the resistance equation. All design measurements and listening is done with the selected gauge. But there is another element in play. Skin effect / signal penetration depth is frequency dependent. 18 gauge is optimum for tweeter frequencies. Larger gauges are suitable for lower frequencies. Your change from 18 to 15.5 will add a harsh coarseness caused by propagation eddy currents. What I am doing with Straightwire is replacing the 18/2 with 18/4 in a star quad twist. We keep the optimum skin depth while halving the resistance and multiplying common mode noise rejection - these cables are in an electromagnetic soup from the drivers and crossovers. I am assuming that final level tweaking will be required due to resistance changes. I am applying the same star quad regime along with progressively larger gauges to the other drivers, all with promising results.
Carry on and keep us posted.
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Tom
Again I have to say thank you , your knowledge , experience and insight
is valued and appreciated by all Thiel owners .
I remember you telling us that Toyota approached Thiel with the thought of using Thiel speakers in Toyota cars ,
your stories and life experiences are always interesting .
As for batting , I've given up with the idea of changing from fiberglass but still the reading and research was very interesting .
I almost bought some " long haired " sheeps wool after reading about it being the best and used by top British speaker makers ,
but overseas shipping prices prevented me from trying .
I'm back to the wiring because I think I made a mistake when I increased
the gauge to 15.5 reducing the resistance to much ,
the mid tweeter sound is to forceful so I've ordered
17.5 to see if resistance is the problem .
I believe you warned me about that .
I read an old post by @jon_5912 about the holes between the woofer
and the coaxial chamber where the wires pass thru and the possible effect of them not being sealed , I've not sealed mine do to continued work but I'm going to do that this morning to see if the sound is affected.
Luckily no damage like jon experienced .
Try , Listen , Learn
or is it
Learn , Try , Listen
Rob |
tomthiel,
'Just my little peek behind the curtain regarding how everything is hooked to everything, nothing is simple, and no good idea goes unpunished.'
It's a real privilege to have your input and insights here. Cabinets are no doubt fiendishly complicated things and your words do help to ground things back into reality somewhat.
Thankfully for most of us here, we're only on the listening side of the fence!
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Rob - I saw and heard the first pair of 2.7s at the factory in 2012. I believe there was an angled dividing board between the lower (woofer) and upper (midrange) chambers.
I should add a thought to the insulation riddle. Many people assume that wool is best, the other synthetics are next and fiberglas is worst, due mostly to cost, where fiberglas is the least expensive. I've previously mentioned that Thiel's fiberglas is a best of form type. I don't think that I've mentioned my reasons for confidence that it's pretty good, perhaps best for the task.
In the late 80s during development of the CS5, I took on the project of comparing, contrasting, testing and choosing an 'optimum' batting / insulation scheme for the CS5. Such research always trickled down to less expensive products where an as cost-effective. I had some pretty luck help. Toyota was coming to town with their Camry plant. Also IBM keyboard products was down the street and the University of Kentucky had developed a School of Advanced Engineering in support of Toyota's success. I've mentioned the happy quirk that Thiel Audio was a 5th member (of 5) of UK's Advanced Manufacturing Roundtable, to which I was Thiel's representative. Lots of stories there, but today's is that Toyota, of course, was bigtime in the sound deadening business as was IBM. In addition to picking their brains, I brought my cousin Teddy (the GE Jet Engine guy) to the party for his knowledge of aircraft noise abatement. Needless to say, there was horsepower in play. Less likely, is that the scheme we had originally developed in the late 70s won the day.
Many of the reasons for choosing other materials have to do with odor or fungus or handling or airborne particulates. Those issues were all manageable and wool felt and fiberglas is what we kept. There are many new subsequent products and concepts. Thiel never approached constrained layer damping or suspended case in case construction. But we did explore various surface damping schemes. I found nothing to make any appreciable net improvement over what we had. And it seems that future products kept on keeping on. Although I am investigating air movement and panel resonance, I haven't considered re-addressing the original wood felt / fiberglas batt chamber damping. For now at least.
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Thank You Tom Thiel
I wish I had known about the findings by Thiel
before I tried experimenting with wool batting ,
so with the knowledge you have shared I will give up any thought
about trying to use wool , especially since the 2.7 doesn't have
a seperate chamber for the midrange speaker .
Rob
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tomthiel
Thank You for sharing your insight on loudspeaker insulation.
Happy Listening! |
For the record, wool acts quite differently than fiberglas, as does polyester fiberfill or spun mineral wool, especially in transition to the deep bass. Final placement and voicing of damping was always made by results. Listen to it, and if you have the means, measure the output smoothness. Insulation schemes will unload at various frequencies due to complex resonant behavior, especially in reflex systems. Fiberglas behaves more simply and predictably than any other scheme we found.
In my time, and possibly onward, the first reflection of the midrange driver off its rear enclosure wall was absorbed with dense pure wool felt - it worked the best for that purpose and its considerable expense was worthwhile. Our evaluation of wool batting for absorption was not as good as fiberglas.
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beetlemania
Thank You for the confirmation.
Happy Listening! |
@jafant I made no comparison. Just assumed that the previous volume was “optimized”, a dubious assumption given that the volume can easily be modified by compression, ie, there is no one OEM volume that can be discerned. I merely made it as close as possible to how it was when I first removed the radiator to view to boards. |
beetlemania
Thank You for the DIY update. How is the presentation and sound affected by peeling off the batt volume?
Happy Listening! |
@vair68robert
Thanks for the update regarding wool batting.
My SEs had rectangular fiberglass batts (no paper backing) stuffed into the passive radiator chamber. My new boards have much more volume so I peeled off some of the batt volume in attempt to end up with similar residual fill. |
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jonandfamily
Thank You for posting the Thiel Loudspeaker Timeline link.
Happy Listening! |
Don't forget the ViewPoints. My working one sounds fantastic.
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I guess this is the time to ask, or confirm, that the incredibly comprehensive hyperlinked database of all speakers that was a part of the 'real' Thiel's website was immediately destroyed by the new owners?
As I recall, it had every speaker's production dates, white paper, instruction manual, print marketing material, technical specifications, and all the positive reviews they could find from US and foreign sources.
If anyone mirrored or archived it, I have yet to find it... |
fitter468 and jonandfamily ... my thanks to both of you.
This is exactly what I was looking for.
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1977 o1 1978 03. 1980 O3A. 1983 cs3. 1986 cs3.5. 1989 cs5. 1991 cs2 2. 1992 cs 3.6. 1993 cs 1.5. 1994 cs7. 1996 cs 6 scs2. 1997 cs 2.3. 1998 cs 7.2. Hope that helps this came straight from a thiel brochure. |
@jazzman7 that would be awesome. I know it’s a lot of work but seeing the different versions of speakers and years would sure help if possible |
This post is addressed to all who participate in this thread, but more than likely mostly to Tom Thiel for assistance.
I was thinking that it would be nice to have a timeline of Thiel product development. A list that would provide the years of manufacture for each of the products in the various series. I think that it could help provide context for many of the discussions on this thread. It would also be interesting to have the corresponding price points at the time as well.
Thoughts? |
@beetlemania
Update on the wool quilting batting ,
basically a total failure .
No matter how much I used and compressed in the mid/tweeter
cabinet the very high piercing notes came thru ,
in the bass it seemed to muddy up the upper bass .
While it is great to work with , it just isn't the right batting for sound .
Maybe I'll try wool insulation after replacing the resistors
and electrolytic capacitors .
Solved the brightness after replacing the wiring ,
changed a tube on the phono preamp .
Question , does the 2.4 have fiberglass batting that is cut into squares and rectangles then stuffed in or is it heavy and cut placed aroung the walls ?
Rob |
I see. Small trace sounds suspect. I've exhausted my clues. I have a PP XO schematic - same drivers, if that might help. Try Rob.
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Here's a picture of the other side. While it is on a PC board, there isn't really any significant tracing. All of the components are connected via solder except one short spot on the left. That appears to be part of a secondary path to the tweeter that I'm guessing is supposed to carry a very small signal. It appears the importance of the printed part is mainly to help with assembly. Viewpoint back of crossover: https://imgur.com/e3YK20g |
Jon - your pic shows PC boards which are all too easy to burn.PM sent
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Tom - Thanks for the feedback, I think the crossover must be what is described as point to point. All of the components are soldered directly together on the back of the board. I don't see any other possibility than one of the three components has a short. There is another path but it goes through a resistor, pair of capacitors, and coil in series. I'm guessing it's some sort of secondary path to deal with some specific problem. It's really annoying. I guess now I bust out the soldering iron, take the components off the board and measure them. I have a hardware store multimeter that won't measure capacitance. Picture of cs2.4 crossover with same type of construction. https://www.pinterest.com/pin/333477547409233370/ |
Jon - I haven't had your experience, but I can comment.Broken leads are usually caused by excessive excursion.Your 2 volts AC at the tweeter and woofer with a 60Hz test signal is improper. Tweeter should be near zero.Caps and resistors usually blow open, not short. Hmmm. Shorted feed cap or resistor would cause direct feed and tweeter destruction.If your XOs are on PCBoards, the short might be in a trace, not component.
Rob Gillum at Coherent Source Service might help troubleshoot
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I finally got around to trying to figure out what was going on with the ViewPoints I bought in March. I had bought a replacement tweeter and installed it but it wasn't working right. I took the speaker apart and played around trying to get it to work. There was a signal at the tweeter terminals and at the plugs where it is installed. After being mystified for a while I noticed that the new tweeter had the same problem the old one had - the wire that connects the voice coil to the plug was broken.
Hmmmmm. I played a 60hz test tone and measured the AC voltage at the woofer terminals and the tweeter terminals. They both had exactly 2 volts. I'm thinking this means that one of the capacitors or the resistor in the tweeter path is a full short. Anybody have this experience? |
All
yesterday's HiFi Chats via YouTube featured Garth Powell from Audioquest.
Happy Listening!
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thieliste
Looking forward in reading your report on the Gryphon.
Happy Listening!
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@jafant yes you should definitely audition the Diablo 300 before making any decision.The Gryphon will have much more grip on your 2.4SE than the Ayre integrated, just my 2 cents.
I'm going to demo the Gryphon Mephisto stereo by the end of this month, will keep you guys posted.
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thieliste
Thank You for the suggestion. I would have to demo the Gryphon prior to any purchase. Good to see you here.
Happy Listening!
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I have a pair of shipping crates for CS5, free to anyone who can pick them up in central NJ 07726.
they are pretty big, I’d say almost 6ft high.
I could barely fit them in my SUV.
contact me here or PM.
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^IMHO, a much better option.
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Jafant since you want to purchase the Ayre integrated, did you also think about the Gryphon Diablo 300 ?That's one very good alternative in the same price range and you could find a used one.
Cheers.
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matt0404
Welcome! Good to see you here. Very informative post and system.
The HCA-3500 is still a relevant amp, IMO. I look forward in reading more about your musical tastes. Excellent shout out for Rob Gillum.
Happy Listening!
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Hey Thiel 'Gonners! Just finished my last round of updates for my 3.6s including the big 100uf ClarityCap CSAs and a handful of Mills MRA-12s among other componets. The sound has, for a lack another word: CLARITY! The bass is much more controlled with better low extention. With the lack of a muddier midbass, the upper mid-band and treble extention are also more revealed. It's quite a trip to listen to them now and more to come after my back-ordered bypass caps and more Mills come in another month or so. In the mean time I'm sending my midranges to Rob at CS for rebuilding next week. While I wait though, I ordered and received a set of ScanSpeak Discovery 12w/4524gs to use in the interum. They were recommended for 3.6s by a reputable distributer but I hadn't seen mention of them here on A'gon nor has Rob heard them used in 3.6s before. I've had them for testing for about a week now and my summed mono A/B comparision reveals them to be forward and too narrow a bandwidth thus far. I'm running them through a pink noise generator for another 100 hours or so but have suspisions they'll fall short of the original, as to be expected. Perhaps some voicing in the crossover would help however, since I'm only using them in the interum, I think I'll just wait it out; yerning for Rob to send back the Vifas ASAP. Anyone else had experience with these ScanSpeaks before or have sugestions?
It sure has been fun catching up with you guys on our forum over the past few days. Looks like the 3.5 continues to get a lot of love and, with the Great Unpleasentness among us now, all these creative minds with more time on their hands, are comming up with so many really wonderful ideas for modding. Keep it up guys! It's so fun to follow your progress and hope that my 3.6 project helps others in some small way as well.
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@tomthiel I have a pair of Klipsch Chorus II I will be stripping down and doing a restrain before I encounter my 3.5. I also have a pair of the lighter oak finish (ash?) cs2.2 that has a light cup stain on top that I wouldn’t mind fixing. |
Hello everyone! Wow, what an informative thread this is! I’ve really enjoyed reading through here and learning so much about Thiel speakers. Such a wealth of information. I picked up my first pair of Thiel speakers a few months ago. I found a pair of CS7’s locally and couldn’t pass them up. When I bought them, they were described as fully functional, but, as soon as I got them home, I realized there was an issue with one of the 12" woofers. I could hear the coil rubbing the former on bass notes at moderate levels. Thankfully, Rob Gillum was able to help me out. I shipped the woofer off to him and he rebuilt it back to factory spec. Turns out the suspension was a bit tired and allowed the cone to sag which caused the VC to rub. It’s good as new now. I may rotate the other woofer 180 degrees as preventive maintenance. However, removing these woofers is no easy task. Definitely a two person job to minimize the risk of damaging the concrete baffles. The woofer alone weighs 30 lbs! Anyway, I’ve had them up and running for a few weeks now and I’m really enjoying them! They’re much different from the other speakers I have in our home. In a good way! Excellent detail and imaging. Some of the best I’ve heard in that regard. Bass is clean and tight with no trace of boxy boominess. Really exceptional speakers! I’m running them on a modest setup at the moment; Tidal/Amazon HD, Bluesound Node 2i, SMSL M8a, Anthem Pre 2L SE and Parasound HCA-3500. I’ll be changing things up in the coming week. Curious how the CS7’s will respond. :) Here’s a shot of them in situ: https://flic.kr/p/2jeBrwZhttps://flic.kr/p/2jeEdNKAnd check out this woofer: https://flic.kr/p/2jipdwiThe woofer is secured to an internal cross brace via a 3/4" bolt through the phase plug/magnet. https://flic.kr/p/2jimg5YAlso note solid core wiring used throughout: https://flic.kr/p/2jimjGCHappy listening, All! |
FYI: Thiel stained bare wood; if stained, the clearcoats would be on top of stain. If natural, the clear sealer and topcoats would be on bare wood. Refinishing is serious business. Are you experienced? You might consider some form of over-coat, like a pigmented topcoat, or translucent or opaque paint.
Keep us posted on their resurrection tour. |
Thanks @tomthiel and @thielrules. My first thoughts they were the lighter color that Thiel offered then they stained this color. They don’t feel like they have been sanded and you can see on the edges where the runoff was. I guess once I get them sanded down carefully, I’ll be able to see what’s underneath. |
Jhouse - your speakers certainly do look altered, that's not a Thiel factory finish. The veneer looks to be Mahogany, which has a natural color in the salmon spectrum, which is generally stained some shade of red-brown. It looks like yours have been stripped, leaving some color in the scratches and pores. They could be refinished professionally or DIY with readily available finishing materials.
Thiel used very little Mahogany due to a combination of low demand and high hassle factor. There are many types of figure, grain, color and embedded expectations regarding Mahogany. Mahogany with its terminology and nuances is well understood in the world of fine furniture, but practically invisible in the world of audio. We would have needed an education and interface department to promote Mahogany, and chose instead to just offer it as an option on demand. Hard to guess why your cabinets got stripped.
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Jhouse, those speakers look like they have the same color as a pair that I have, and teak seems right. However the finish of your speaker is not original and will need some work to rehabilitate. Tom has probably some good suggestions what to do. |
Happy 4th!
One of my bucket list items is to own and live with a pair of 3.6s. Someday!
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Same Jafant! Hope all is well in your world. |
