Thiel Owners

Rew room equalizer wizard.

Following up on one of my earlier posts, the CS7.2 woofers that seemed hopelessly damaged have been repaired by Coherent Source Services (Rob Gillum).  He had to completely rebuild them (shipping damage prior to me purchasing them), but they are now back, installed, and playing music.  I don't know how much burn in time they might need, but the speakers already sound fantastic (first I've heard them since purchasing them).  Rob was extremely helpful throughout this process, and I unconditionally recommend his services.

For the visually inclined among you I have posted some photos on the diy audio forum.

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/332679-thiel-cs2-4-xover-schematics.html#post5683434

@holco 
Very nice! thanks for sharing, would you please upload your photos on your system page so all audiogon members can see it too?

imhififan,

Thanks :)

Just added a compilation to my profile

gwgjr31

Outstanding! Thank You for the follow up regarding your CS 7.2 loudspeakers. Good to read that Rob was in a position to rebuild the damaged driver(s) and make your speakers operational again.
What other gear including cabling is in your system?

Happy Listening!

holco
Your system looks very elegant. Those cross-over networks are beautiful- you have really raised the DIY bar, outdone yourself.  As your schedule allows, talk about the improvements in sound quality per musical tastes.
Sonic improvements for a certain test track or two, album titles...etc.
Bravo!

Jafant,

Thanks :)

I am not a guy who can write a good description about how something sounds, I can tell you that my Thiel's sounds best ever out of this world good to me IMHO, and it does!!, but this is for sure no reference to others, it's the same for me when I read sound descriptions from others, there is simple no reference for me to compare.

My brother is also a audio freak like me and we know from each other how our systems sounds, he knows directly what I mean when I say how something has improved because he has a reference ;)

Jafant,
My current system is SAM reference TT+Audia Flight phono pre/Raysonic 168 CD player/Bluenode streamer feeding an ARC Reference 3 driving a pair of Levinson 436 amps for this system. As for cables, I am firmly in the budget cable camp, so I use a mix of Blue Jean, Monoprice, and custom made cables. I have more gear than I can use at any one time, so things get swapped in and out periodically though:)

-Gary

An update on my upgrade impressions . . .

There have times over the past couple of weeks when I wondered whether the new boards were fully settled. Regardless, I’ve noticed more than ever the differences in recording and mastering quality among albums, so it could be that’s some or all of what I’m hearing. Michael Fremer, among others, has commented on speakers that are “too” revealing. I don’t agree with his conclusion but now appreciate what he is referring to.

While listening a few days ago I recalled Shane Buettner’s review of the 2.4. He generally raved about it but one complaint was that he heard “slightly on the cool side of neutral sound”. He caulked it up to the aluminum diaphragms (he’s a huge fan of Vandersteen). I ran this past Tom Thiel and he pointed out that aluminum drivers can sound bright or tizzy if poorly implemented but not “cool”. Anyhow, vocals on some songs do sound a bit thin or cool. I suspect this reflects the recording quality because vocals on other songs sound dead neutral. Something like the Norah Jones debut album or recent Keb Mo sound superb but something like Shawn Colvin’s debut not so much. Tom also mentioned that John Atkinson would find flaws in his recordings while reviewing Thiels.

To be clear, I have zero regrets about the upgrade. The textures and spacious sound are intoxicating. The resolution and transparency are pretty much SOTA. This is easily the best sound I’ve had in my room and, in most ways, rivals the best systems I’ve heard. Although recording and mastering foibles become apparent on some albums I wouldn’t go back. And the well recorded music is just so freaking good. I listen to my system almost every evening and I can now bliss out more than ever.

But, this might be a warning to those who share Fremer’s point of view if you are considering the XO upgrade. Curious to hear responses from the community.

My upgrade is not finished. I still need to replace the hookup wire with Cardas and replace the binding posts. I’m also toying with the idea of trying a Jupiter copper foil 0.01 uF bypass cap on one of the coax feeds.

Thanks for the extra pics, holco. I tried unsuccessfully to add pics on Audiogon systems a couple of months ago. Not sure what the problem was.

beetlemania, 

As you can see I had no problem to upload some pictures,  but it's time consuming compared to what I normally have to do on other forums, it's also unfortunately that there is no option to share pictures on the topics itself. 

Regarding your upgraded crossovers, I totally understand what you are going thru, like I said before the 2.4 is performing out of this world so good!! after the crossover upgrade.

As we speak, I am now working on the internal Supra wirering with grounding, hopefully with a positive result. 

Tomthiel,
At least for one loudspeaker I found out the serial number, it's 1446

https://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/16101822/1024/Thiel-CS-2.4/20190203-194532.jpg

As we speak, I am now working on the internal Supra wirering with grounding, hopefully with a positive result.

I am curious what type of Supra cables you plan to use?  I bought them from Madisound which has reasonably good price.  They are available in various gauge size, but the larger gauge such as 9AWG has an odd resonance issue, but I had good experience with the smaller gauge wires.

vegasears
Very nice combination of gear. I do not believe that I have seen another Audiophile use McIntosh and VTL together? The B&W 801S3 is a fine speaker indeed.  Happy Listening!

gwgjr31

A very nice combination of gear as well. I have heard an ARC pre-amp w/ Mark Levinson power amps previously and enjoyed the synergy.
No doubt that your 7.2 loudspeakers are high current monsters!
Good to read about a cd player being in the mix.

Happy Listening!

Hey folks, 

i could use some recommendations for optimizing my home theater.  
Mom running 5.1 with Thiel 3.7 as my Fronts, an SCS3 center and 2.3s for my rear.  
I have then connected to a Denon POA-A1HDC on bridge mode which provides 500w to 4 ohms. 

Running audyssey has some problems maxing out my fronts.  

I was was wondering if I should forgo the bridge mode and drop to 300w. Vs the recommendation to use attenuators to get audyssey to balance.  

I know the 3.7s are known to be power hungry, but the area in the basement is not very large.  (I sit 8 feet away from center).  

Any my thoughts are appreciated.  

holco
Very nice- I am glad that you found at least (1) serial number. Describing the sound of any component can be challenging. Best advice is to talk about your fave piece of musical passage, at the least. Talk about the before upgrade characteristics then add after upgrade factors. Did imaging get better? Soundstage is deeper or wider? Musician(s) are solidly placed? Instrument texture or tone become cleaner/clearer.
Give it a shot!  Again, it is good to have you here as a DIY member of the Panel.

Happy Listening!

ekohn00

Welcome! good to see you here. You have quite a collection of Thiel Audio speakers. Besides the Denon POA A1HDC, what other gear including cabling is in your system? Can you give the dimensions of your basement listening space?  There are a few members here using a home theater set-up. Guys chime in for suggestions.
I look forward in reading more about your system and musical tastes.

Happy Listening!

ekohn00 : corrected.

Upgraded the internal wirering with Supra Ply 3.4/s cable's and also grounded the coax crossover backside, coax and woofer frames, crossovers are placed on the side wall's to gain more distance between them and shorter wirering, low mid and high details and imaging are improved and got more air overall, bass is clearly tighter.

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/332679-thiel-cs2-4-xover-schematics-2.html

Holco - since you performed multiple changes at the same time, I wish to ask a favor. Can you compare SQ with / without the drain wire?

Thanks, Tom

Tomthiel, 

I planned that when my brother is here again and will post the outcome here.

Hi holco,

Very nice job.  I am curious that if you had to remove the woofer and mid/tweeter from the front baffle in order to connect the new wire?

Thanks andy2

Yes all have been removed. 

@holco 
Impressive! Curious to know what difficulties you encountered replacing the hookup wire. The run from the coax board to the coax looks problematic to me. Some questions:

Was your OEM wire in a tube, sealed with hot melt?

How did you guide the new coax wire from the coax chamber through the fiberglass and around the brace above the woofer?  

How did you seal the new wire at the hole where it enters the coax chamber?

Finally, what gauge is your new wire and did you have any problems fitting it into the hole on the driver tab?

How did you seal the new wire at the hole where it enters the coax chamber?

That would be a challenge since I assume the coax chamber has to be sealed from the bass compartment.  If there is any leakage, it will affect the sound of the coax driver.

My guess is you have to cut the existing wire, then run your own wire through the existing opening, then seal it with some type of weather sealant from Home Depot. 

Finally, what gauge is your new wire and did you have any problems fitting it into the hole on the driver tab?

It looks either to be 14AWG
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/speaker-wire/supra-ply2.0-speaker-wire-per-foot-14-awg/

or 12AWG:
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/speaker-wire/supra-ply3.4-speaker-wire-per-foot-12-awg/

But I am not sure how he run the ground wire.  Speaker wires usually do not have any grounding terminal so I would guess it has to be modified afterward.

Used Google translate to write this so hope it's all clear to you guys.

The diameter of the Supra Ply 3.4/S cable outer sheath is 8mm, I have removed the plastic tube that contained the coax wire and the existing holes are then drilled to 8.5mm with an angle screwdriver, where the cable enters the coax chamber I glued it with a PU TIX Express from Bostik, first I have the cable extended further then glued and then retracted the cable thru the hole again so that the hole itself is also provided with glue, immediately afterwards I sprayed some water with a plant spray to accelerate the drying process, later I tested the closure by pressing the passive woofer with a good result, totally no movement at the coax, the remaining holes are also drilled to 8.5mm so that the wires are supported there too, this time without glue.

The Ply 3.4 / S cable has two 3,4mm2 (OFC) cores, these cores are far too thick to fit into the holes of the coax and woofer terminals, these are soldered neatly direct on the plus and min terminals, the terminal supports of the coax and the woofer are attached to the units with a bolt, the earthed wires are secured to them so the frames are also grounded.

I have placed the gold plated earth terminal airtight through a 3mm hole between the two +/- connections, at the rear is a thin gold plated solder plate fixed to the m3 bolt.


https://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/16102252/1024/Thiel-CS-2.4/Supra-Ply-3.4%3AS.jpeg

https://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/16102259/1024/Thiel-CS-2.4/earth-post-gold-350-0.jpg

https://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/16102263/1024/Thiel-CS-2.4/20190203-195500.jpg

https://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/16102262/1024/Thiel-CS-2.4/20190203-162605.jpg

More detail pictures on the diyaudio forum.

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/332679-thiel-cs2-4-xover-schematics-2.html#post5687543

Thank you @holco
I was considering leaving the OEM coax wire because of imagined difficulties but your success will propel me forward. I’ve ordered a solder pot so that I can properly tin my Cardas ends.

Good luck beetlemania, it's worth it!!
And be prepared for a tighter and more detailed bass ;-)

Today I made a recording of my installation with the song Takla Makan by Yello, sound recording was made with a Tascam DR-40 v2 in the format WAV 24bit-48k, the video is just from my phone.

Now is You-Tube not the most suitable medium for sound and often there is no option to listen to it optimally via the equipment You-Tube plays, so also a link from the original sound file for download so you can directly put the file in your music streamer for the best result.
This recording gives only an impression and is far from how it sounds 1: 1 but I thought it would be nice to share it.

Original sound file out of the Tascam:
https://free01.thegood.cloud/index.php/s/WjKpX2wADS37x8H

You-Tube link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_CIpgiH5Zo&t=117s

holco
Outstanding! work.  Happy Listening!

Thanks, that helps to build transparency.

Thank you guys, glad that I have been able to contribute something :-)

Just soldered the Jantzen wax coils in, two words, get them!!

Guys-I wanted to pass along this information for those of you who may be considering one of the new Krell XD product(s). Mr. Scott Ross owner of Atlanta Home Theater-  Roswell GA, is offering special dealer/retailer incentive pricing. He is another fan of Thiel Audio and feels that these new Krell amps are an excellent sonic match. Atlanta has proven itself to be a hotbed of Thiel owners and supporters. Incredible!

Happy Listening!

Nice, holco! Wish there was a way to compare my ERSE foil to your Jantzen. But I’m pretty much done now except for the hookup wire. 

beetlemania,

Believe me, the Wax coils are the icing on the cake in the whole picture!!

Equal to the coax, the upper bass / low mids in the room now places more up front and outside the speakers and the bass / low mids has more weight / push and detail, the Wax coils clearly!! show an improvement with every kind of music in the lower regions, music with low voices like for example Leonard Cohen sounds really freaking good.

I am totally happy with how the speakers are performing now, by default I was already very impressed with the CS2.4 but now they perform at a totally different level!! what I want to say more is that there is absolutely no sharpness or rawness to hear, rather the opposite!! with still the beautiful Thiel character present.

Happy Friday - All.

Holco - I appreciate you sharing your work with us. I am getting Jantzen wax coils for direct comparison with ERSE foil. Both use the same 5-9+alloy and both are wound on sophisticated tensioning equipment. Both are bonded, but ERSE is resin and Jantzen is paper & wax. Sweet development. Thanks. 

tomthiel,

Greate move!! I am very curious about what you think of the Jantzen wax coils.

At the risk of being led to the slaughter by the purists in the group I have to say I have been trying some digital EQ using REW to generate filters which optimize gains, q's and frequencies, using a calibrated microphone and a macbook pro.  REW generates filters, which then get loaded into Roon's convolution engine.  My room is a little problematic and without going into too much detail I'm limited as to seating positions.  The speakers are about 12' apart with about 2.5' between them and the side walls; my seating position is about 11.5' away from each speaker.  The speakers are about 5' from the rear wall.  I've had a problem getting satisfying smooth bass in the room.  The room is well-damped if not overdamped.  I thought first you would be interested in seeing the how right and left speakers measure when fed pink noise.  While the chart looks bad initially you'll notice that once you get up to about 800hz and above particularly, the response in room is actually fairly flat with a small suppressed area between 3200hz and 5000hz before a very gentle rolloff above 5000hz.  The "somewhat" major issues are the bump between 80hz and 110 hz, and the fairly deep suckout between 50hz and 80hz.  I'm certain this is partially the result of room modes and if I were able to move speakers and or seating position forward or back I could tame them quite a bit.  Be advised I am NOT trying to create a perfectly flat response with EQ.  Nonetheless with a fairly small selection of filters applied automatically using REW using parameters including a desired target of + or - 3b, I'm able to achieve the second image of the corrected response using the filters.  Again most of the filters are acting on the response <200.  Actually I have one whole set of filters that EQ ONLY frequencies below 200 but the results in the picture attached are the full range EQ filters.  What I've found was when I let REW EQ the whole range the program only ends up with 3 or 4 filters above 200 eq, mostly in the middle high and high frequencies to shelve that down a little.  I have a pretty sensitive ear having grown up around classical music and I have to say with the filters engaged I don't hear anything amiss with regard to timing, timbre or other things that are important to me which is pretty astounding to me since I have read and have always believed that while you can be a little heavy handed with everything below 200hz or so you should leave the rest alone.  At any rate I am incredibly impressed at how REW can smooth out bass response in my problematic room.  The filters don't seem to affect the very accurate and awesome natural timbre of Thiels which is their real strength. https://www.dropbox.com/s/lv976lgys4n3yrb/Measurements%20Feb%209.jpeg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tyadw87synelk34/Feb%209%20w%3Aeq.jpeg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/k9rqhziwcu1k5o0/IMG_1801.JPG?dl=0

Which tutorial did you use? Did you also adjust any phase issues?

pwhinson
Good to see you again. I agree that your room is well damped, not overly damped to my ears. How does your speakers sound at 8 feet apart? Then 10 feet apart? I see that you arrived at 12 feet apart. The sweet spot for a pair of CS 2.4 loudspeakers is the original 8 feet apart. I suspect that one could adjust this measure to accommodate a larger room/space.
Happy Listening!

PW - Your listening position is far enough away to allow wider spacing, but anything over 10' gets dicey for center-fill. I generally consider distance to walls as more critical than distance between speakers. Your 5' behind is ideal, at less than 3.5' (±) the auditory brain tries to conflate the bounce with the primary signal causing smear. Great at 5'.Small side distance stimulates room modes as well as exascerbating the reflection bounce. 2.5' is very close to the wall. As an experiment, can you bring the speakers together?

I avoid same dimension behind as beside. If 5' behind, then perhaps 4' beside, leaving approximately 9' between.
I apologize in advance if you have tried and ruled out these ideas.I am quite interested in how you are using the PowerPoints. Please share.

Latest update:
  2.4’s, Proceed CDP driving a NEW Psaudio 250.
  The Psaudio now over 100 hours is settling in. What a great amp!
  The Thiels have disappeared. Such detailed and layered imaging. Gotta say I really can appreaciate the linearity of the Thiels now.
   Only thing is they are a little hot. Maybe it’s my eardrums as I age (63). But snare drums strikes are pretty harsh . What would the upgrade cap set do to the sound?
   I am days away from getting the Psaudio signature preamp so I got that going for me too.
thanks for you input .

gasman117,

It seems that you have the CS2.4?  I do not find them "hot" at all.  Actually I think they are just a touch on the warm side although they are very transparent so it could be the electronics.

My front end equipment are Ayre QB9 DSD, Pass Lab XP10, SimAudio W7 amp, Acoustic Zen Hologram II cables. 

gasman117Thank You for the update. It is good to read another PS Audio customer here. ronkent was out first endorser of this brand and loves his system's synergy. Which cables/power cords are you using currently?
Happy Listening!

I made a new recording of my CS2.4 with now also the Jantzen wax coils mounted.
The recording is made twice, 1 time with the Thiel's connected to earth and 1 time without the earth connection, the recording is mixed so that every 30sec is switched between the two recordings, you can also see that in the picture if there is or not a ground wire to be seen next to the speakers.

I do not hear a difference myself, but it could be that the speakers first have to play a week without the earth wire to hear a difference, who knows ........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wws3q_bQCiw

Direct link for download
https://free01.thegood.cloud/index.php/s/kQQZQ8e2QY9LTW6