yyzsantabarara,
Congrats on the 3.7s! What finish are they? I'd love to have a pair of those speakers, but my 2.2s look and sound so good in my living room that it's hard for me to justify newer and larger speakers.
And don't let your toddler run the house! If the the 3.7s don't work in the office, just switch rooms with your son and tell him it's about time he got to work and started paying his own way. |
Just bought a pair of CS3.7's. Going to drive and pick it up on Saturday.
It has been 12 years since I demoed and wanted to buy the CS 3.7 and the stars aligned quickly this past 3 weeks. I was going to buy the Yamaha NS5000 for the office but the CS3.7 will fit better (less bass) and I love this model.
I am going to be putting this in my office which is way too small. However, I did demo them long ago in a small room (with subs no less). I also have the room acoustically treated and I am going to call up Mitch Barnett of Acoustic Sounds in Canada to develop a few convolution files (DRC) to run my digital via ROON.
My analog only SACD player may not work with the CS3.7 in this room since I won't be able to do DRC with that, but I also like headphones for that player.
I do have a much larger room downstairs for this speaker if I cannot make it work in the office, but my toddler has that as his play room. I can share with him once he goes back to school. Pretty sure this DRC exercise in the office will be successful, especially with the CS3.7.
My gear is an all Benchmark stack, HPA4 preamp | DAC3B | AHB2 amp | Benchmark Speaker cables | Benchmark StarQuad XLR between pre-amp and amp | Audience AU24 SE on 3 sources to the preamp.
I believe this should be a good sounding setup. If not the CS 3.7's go downstairs. I will likely get a second AHB2 to run in mono. |
jafant,
I have to laugh after you (and others) encouraged me to get a tube preamp for my Thiel 2.2's and then you picked up a tubeless Ayre integrated amp to drive your Thiels after I broke down and bought a BHK preamp for my system. My BHK still needs more burn-in, but it already sounds great. It adds body to reproduction of instruments and broadens the sound stage in a very pleasing and natural way, but it never sounds flabby or loose the way some tube amps/preamps can sound. |
yyzsantabarbara
not long ago a pair of CS 3.7 were listed on U.S. Audiomart. Watch that site often, as well as, Audio Asulym, Audiogon, eBay and Craigslist. Keep me posted on your hunt.
Happy Listening!
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tomthiel
Thank You for the history lesson on CS 3.7 loudspeakers.I hope that you are well and enjoying the Fall season there in New England.This is a good reminder for cite your Serial Numbers (S/N) on all Thiel Audio models here.
Happy Listening!
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Thanks guys for the feedback. Now let's see if I can snag one. |
YYZsantabarbara - here are some thoughts about Thiel product versions - upgrades follow this general pattern. A product is introduced with components, especially drivers, being prototypes and early small production runs. Within the first year it becomes obvious through 100% production final testing that some tweaking would better center the speakers (made of real, settled production parts) within their window of acceptability. This first revision is generally not announced, since no real circuitry or specifications are changed - merely subtle improvement of more speakers. At some later time, after ongoing feedback from dealers, reviewers, users, staff listening and Jim’s own scrutiny, a second revision is made which is often more significant and serves to upgrade the perceived shortcomings of the product. Sometimes this second revision carries a price increase. In other words the cost / performance plateau is adjusted toward optimum. In some cases the upgrade is significant such as the CS5i (improved); in some cases it is more subtle, but always more optimum, what the product wanted to be when it grew up - the mature iteration of the design.
In the case of the 3.7, here is what I found. In January 2007 the CS3.7 was introduced (original version - I have no layout or schematic.) On Jan 12, 2008 revision 1 was introduced at approximate serial number #517,18. On October 4, 2008, revision 2 was initiated at approximate serial number #881,82. Revision 2 is the current, mature layout.
The changes in revision 2 over revision 1 are significant: 3 changes, all in the tweeter feed section - addition of a bypass resistor, and changes in coil and capacitor values. These changes affect the shape of the roll-in of the lower tweeter to optimize the blend with the midrange roll out, cleaning up frequency and time-domain coarseness in the upper midrange. Note that the 3.7 UMR got some criticism and someone offers an after-market kit to address it (I’m not recommending that kit.)
All in, I would suggest you consider the upgrade if your speakers are under #880 and upper midrange "rightness" is a concern. Note that many rooms with hard surfaces or dimensional problems exacerbate upper midrange glare and ringing. A problem in a ’bright’ room can go away in a ’sweet’ room. Note also that if you're in there making changes: the added 20 ohm tweeter feed resistor and the existing 12 ohm should become Mills MRA-12s, and the feed cap and its bypass should be upgraded to a ClarityCap CSA 16uF at as high a voltage as you can fit and afford ($25-$35 / each). Just my opinion from my hot-rodding experience.
Have fun.
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@yyzsantabarbara Not really worth upgrading, what you mostly get is the speakers are a little easier to drive therefore more amp choices other than that it's not night and day.If you really want to do it most ex Thiel dealers can do it for you
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emrofsemanon
Welcome! Good to see you here. What other gear and cabling is in your system? I look forward in reading about your musical tastes.
Happy Listening!
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@thieliste Thanks. Can this be easily done or would the speaker need to be shipped to Coherent Source Service?
Years ago I bought a cool car instead of the Thiel 3.7’s. I sold the car 2 weeks ago on Facebook, it was crazy, sold in less than an hour. I am thinking of getting that CS3.7 that got away all those years ago with the car sale proceeds.
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@yyzsantabarbara Yes the crossovers were upgrated in 2012 just before the end.You can purchase them from Rob Gillum if you want to upgrade.
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Were there any changes to the CS 3.7 during its production run?
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My thiels have a mellowness to them on this adcom amp right now. |
i've owned my pair of gently used cs.5 minitowers for about 4 years now, i wouldn't own any others, they were the only speakers i tried that would work in my 14' wide tin can listening room, they image like just about no other speaker in a small room. the speakers themselves are not immediately apparent as sound sources for anything i play on them. their mono specificity is the best i've heard of any speaker in any room. best of all, unlike the bigger thiels, these are MELLOW! but still accurate, i can still "hear into" dense recordings about as well as with the last pair of maggies i heard. on the best recordings their stereo imaging is wall-to-wall with almost palpable instrument placement. they are power-hungry just like their bigger thiel brothers but not as tough a load for non-audiophile amps to power. they have the cleanest purest deep bass i've heard on anything less than a megabuck system. they pass the "sit-down-stand-up test with flying colors. wish i'd found these decades ago. |
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2nd Note;
thieliste- read back in the early pages of this thread for direct comparisons between the CS 2.7 and CS 3.7, well annotated.
Happy Listening!
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thieliste
Thank You for the kind words. The AX-5 / AX-5 Twenty is a musically superb Integrated amp. 2020 has been a Hell of a year for integrated amps!
Happy Listening!
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^i hope you’re right. But, even if I had the budget, due to their past history, and the risk of the alternative process, I’d personally wait and see if they can keep their legs under themselves. I really wish them luck. Absolutely terrific products!
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BHK300 will be ok with 3.7s but a good used Diablo 300 is still the best option IMO.Gryphon has now very good distribution in the US with Philip O'Hanlon.
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It might be true. But, you know what they say about opinions. Unless, one really knows the listener and their perceptions and their experience, or there is consensus from an adequate sample size, I suggest prioritizing the objective information first. If an amp manufacturer can deliver the goods into a low impedance, they will brag about it. On the other hand, specs and measurements are only prerequisites for narrowing down the suitable prospective choices. After that, there are elements of the sound that at this time escape those criterion. I suggest dealing with what we do know before venturing into the unknown. Not doing so is tantamount to traveling to an unknown destination in the dark. |
On the other hand someone on the adcom fb page says their 5800 is powering polks that live in the 2 ohm range just fine |
That ambiguity is why I’ve been going to YouTube videos with the amps present in them and asking questions. |
@thoft, Hold on. You might not actually prefer these to the 3.5’s. The 3.5’s will actually play deeper in the bass and do so with greater cohesion. The 3.7’s are better at dealing with the lobbing issues, both are more dynamic, especially the 7.2’s. The cost of amplification will certainly go up with either. On the other hand, replacement parts are much more available than are for the 3.5s. The BHK 250’s : https://www.psaudio.com/products/bhk-signature-amplifier/#tab-specsaren’t rated into 2 Ohms, being " 2 Ohm ....stable into musical transients" only suggests that the amp won’t go into oscillation when temporarily confronted with such a load. Same for the M700’s: https://www.psaudio.com/products/stellar-m700-power-amplifier/#tab-specsClass D amps are not typically comfortable with sub 4 Ohm loads, The BHK 300’s seem up to the task, but not especially enjoying it: https://www.stereophile.com/content/ps-audio-bhk-signature-300-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurement...These later Thiel’s don’t just visit these lower impedances; they live there: https://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs72-loudspeaker-measurementshttps://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs37-loudspeaker-measurements@Thieliste has given excellent advice recommending some of the best amps for these speakers. The Momentum amps jump to mind as well. The Gryphon’s are probably the best amps I’ve ever heard, but the are not inexpensive(!), and the US distribution has been inconsistent in the past, new ownership seemingly following the originators design philosophy might change that, but the possibility of having to ship these heavy amps back to Denmark is a bit daunting to me. The Krells seem to need to be recapped a bit more often than some others and that’s not cheap either, though IMHO worth it. The Luxman specs are somewhat ambiguous. |
My audire forte can do 2 ohms 400 watts but problem is that the parts for the amp is so rare I don’t want something to go wrong and then it might as well be paperweight. Anyone got recommendations for amps I can find used under 10k for the 3.7 cause I’m probably more likely to get the amp first than the speakers. |
Although anyone got feedback on the luxman m700/m900u amps I’d rather get? |
Well ps audio bhk 250/300 or m700 here I come |
@thoft There's no way your going to drive 7.2s properly with this Adcom, you need to find Krell FPB 400CX for 7.2s.You'd better look for 3.7s much easier do find, best amp for this model is by far Gryphon Diablo 300.I might buy a pair of Thiels for the fourth time but i still need to think about it.
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@thieliste 450 watts at 4 ohms aren’t good enough? |
thieliste
prof did an excellent job of comparing his 3.7s with his 2.7s ,
go back to about pages 40 - 50 and find his in-depth analysis .
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@thoft Your looking to purchase 3.7s or 7.2s ?7.2s are really difficult to find and you better have very beefy amp to drive them like Krell FPB series of today's Gryphon.
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@thoft, OK, then you might not need the pre-amp part. As the eq only has single ended inputs and outputs, I wouldn’t be too concerned with the DAC’s balanced output performance. The Adcom GFA-5800 has a gain of 29 dB for full output via it’s RCA inputs. The equation for sensitivity escapes me for the moment (perhaps one of the other contributors can chime in) but an output of about 2 V ( 2V being the redbook standard, and 2.2 V the standard for HDCD, though for some reason quite a few DAC manufacturers seem to ignore these standards) or less will probably do. Many of today’s DAC’s have 32 bits or more capability, so long as the DAC has a volume control, and doesn’t have an especially high output, you’ll have bit’s to spare even with most hi rez material, with such a DAC there’s no worry of bit stripping due to reduced volume output. Though somewhat more unlikely: too low of an output from the DAC will prohibit the amp from offering full output. While some DAC’s offer eq functionality, most don’t have the 12 db range to adequately substitute for Thiel’s own eq. If you could find a DAC with the needed eq prerequisites, you could reopen the consideration of going balanced. But be warned, that even though the Adcom GFA’s rather unique reduced to 26 dB gain for it’s balanced inputs, the output of many if not most DAC’s balanced connections are often double that of it’s RCA outputs, and the concurrent required volume reduction could lead to a greater chance of bit stripping. If your using Tidal as your main streaming service, it's probably worth it to consider MQA capability. |
I’m just using digital sources. Tidal/cd player. The device going into it will be a fiio m11 pro dsd player. And seen as how the pairing is a splendid one the adcom isn’t going anywhere. |
@thoft, re: dac/pre-amp combo, what sources do you plan to use with it and how married are you to the Adcom GFA - 5800? |
@thoft,
The eq can add two octaves to the 3.5’s. |
I’m looking for a class a dac/pre-amp combo that has a large power supply (uf) anyone have recommendations? |
@thieliste not sure I put out an ad for thiel 3.7/7.2 wanted on eBay in my area to see what happens. Hopefully I can snag something and make a deal where I pay monthly dues. |
Hi guys does anyone have owned 2.7s and 3.7s on this forum ?Any difference except bass ?@jafant congrats on your integrated amp purchase i hope you will be enjoying your rig now.
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I bought a pair of viewpoints off ebay several months ago but when they arrived the box had been abused and one was broken. One of the tweeters was shot so I bought another only to have it immediately go bad. I measured the voltage output and it turns out the crossover has a problem where the tweeter is getting the same voltage as the woofer at low frequencies. I need to either fix the crossover and get a third tweeter or throw the mess out. I'm thinking maybe I can combine the parts from both speakers to make a single functional pair. We'll see. |
@prof i predict the thiels will sound bright as Bryston amps I hear tend to be a “hard bright” sound.
@unsound i have the eq however I think I’ll have it gone through and upgrade the insides. I’m pretty pleased with the sound without the eq to be honest |
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As I wrote about in my own thread, I now have a Bryston 4B3 on loan from a friend. I've tried it on my Spendor speakers, Joseph Audio Perspectives, and soon enough will try them on my Thiel 2.7s. I've wanted to hear the Thiels powered by beefy solid state for quite a while so this should be fun. Though I'm betting the ultimate outcome will be similar to the other speakers. (Hint: I wanted to hug my tube amps afterwards!)
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After having my broken viewpoint sitting on the floor taken apart for a few months I decided to buy the single powerplane on ebay for $135. I'm curious if it has the same innards as the Viewpoints or if the crossover will be a little different. I've gotta think the box volume is the same and they're both meant to go against the wall so any difference won't be much. I'll probably just stick the powerplane innards in the viewpoint unless I for some strange reason have a chunk of free time and energy to mess with trying to fix the viewpoint crossover. Unlikely. |
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Allthe second stand arrived today per jab.Thank You for the outstanding wood working quality.
Pic is posted on my Virtual Systems.
Happy Listening!
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prof
Thank You- Audio is a journey indeed. It is not a sprint, it is a half-marathon to full on marathon. Regarding AYRE, the AX-5, especially in Twenty Series form will yield 90% of it counterpart separates. Unless one needs the extra power provided per separate Power amp or wishes to spend an additional $8K retail, the Integrated is damn impressive.
Happy Listening!
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Glad you found amplification for your speakers Jafant.
For audiophiles sometimes it's like a biblical journey. :-)
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All
I wanted to give a shout out to Panel member jab.My amp is sitting on one of his incredible stands. Fit and finish are second to none. Craftsmanship is beautiful and striking! If you guys are considering an Audio rack or Amp stand, look for further. I will receive a second stand for my spinner soon.
Happy Listening!
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