I really like the Morrow cables compared with my admittedly limited stable of competitors.
Thiel Owners
Guys-
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
13,687 responses Add your response
Thieliste - Rob Gillum at Coherent Source Service would know. The third New Thiel CEO told me "less than a couple thousand"; but then he was defending the decision to abandon Jim's designs. My impression is that marketing was in disarray after Jim's death in 2009. After taking on Crutchfield, the US dealer base evaporated and so forth. If anyone finds out, I'd like to know. |
sdl4 You own a great system. Good to read that newer Cardas cabling is a sonic match with PS Audio gear. Historically, Audience and Straight Wire are sonic matches with Thiel loudspeakers as well. I am unfamiliar with newer Audience Forte and Front Row cabling options. A few reviews on each line are slowly making a presense into the Audio press. I always advise to trust your own ears regarding cables/power cords.One does not need great spending to achieve great sound. A full loom as well as mixing can yield excellent aural results. Have fun! Happy Listening! |
jafant, I'm sure your Ayre amp sounds great. It looks like cable choices are the next big item on your agenda. My experience with cables is fairly limited, but I do have a pretty good feeling for what works in my current system. When I first got the PS Audio Stellar M700 monoblock amps and the Gain Cell DAC/Preamp last year, I settled on using the Cardas Parsec balanced XLRs between the DAC/Pre and the amps after trying several other cables. The Parsec does not produce dramatically etched detail in the upper frequencies, but it does provide a good balance between detail and warmth, and the bass is solid with my 2.2 Thiels. I also picked up several Audience Forte F3 power cords and have been using them with all my PS Audio gear. These Audience cords are a bargain, and they help my system provide a smoother sound with a quieter background compared to the stock cords. Some online comments voice concerns that the Forte cords sound a little soft on the high end, but I don't have a lot to compare them with. After getting the PS Audio BHK Preamp, I've been using it with the Stellar DAC/Pre in DAC-only mode. This meant that I needed another XLR interconnect between the BHK Pre and the Stellar DAC. If I were being more careful with my audio spending, I would have just picked up another pair of Parsec XLRs, but I've been lusting after the Cardas Clear Reflection XLRs so I decided to try a pair. First the good news: I really like the Clear Reflection cables. And the bad news: I really like the CR cables. This is bad news only because they cost a lot more than the Parsecs do. For now, I'm using the CR from DAC to Pre and the Parsec from Pre to M700s. If my self-control dissolves at some point, I may replace the Parsec with CR. But I still like the Parsec a lot, so there's no hurry to change them out. I'm still undecided about power cords, but I will soon be trying a pair of Shunyata Delta NR V2 power cords on either the BHK Pre and Stellar DAC or on the two M700 monoblocks to compare with the Audience cords. My speaker cables are long runs (24 ft.) of Straight Wire Encore. It's really hard to demo alternative cables that long, and super high-end cables are too expensive in those lengths, so I'll be sticking with the Straight Wire until a better high-performance bargain wire comes along. A few more comments about the Cardas Clear Reflection interconnects may be helpful. This is not a cable for listeners seeking the nth degree of etched detail, although it does have an extended high end overall. Instead, it is a cable that gets the sound of voices, instruments, and music right. It images great, but not by exaggerating transients or shouting for attention. It simply makes recordings sound like music - at least in my system, which can sound a little too bright with the wrong cables. Because it sounds so natural, the CR is a favorite of many listeners, including several Thiel owners on this thread and Angela Cardas, who has many more expensive cables from Cardas Audio to choose from. If you're looking for some of the "midrange magic" from the earlier Cardas cables combined with the increased clarity from the technology used in Cardas' Clear series of cables, then Clear Reflection would be a great choice. |
Thanks guys. I sold my SCS4 about 6 years ago and was not expecting to get a CS3.7. However, room treatments and DRC have made the CS3.7 placement seem possible in my office. I also have comfort with how to resolve problems with the CS3.7 from what I learned on this thread. I do not think there will be a degradation of the sound via DRC, maybe an enhancement due to better room matching. That is getting the frequency curve to best match my room. https://www.amazon.com/Accurate-Sound-Reproduction-Using-DSP-ebook/dp/B01FURPS40/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1... This is the guy who I will get to make the optimal frequency curve for my room. This will be implemented as Convolution File(s). The execution of these files are supported in software such as ROON and JRiver. Sort of 2020's equivalent of the old hardware equalizer. I got a cherry veneer CS3.7 which matches all my furniture in the office. Was not trying to do that but it was a nice bonus. The Gryphon Diablo should make a nice pairing with the CS3.7 or CS2.7. It will be interesting to see if my gear will work with the CS3.7. My gear is very neutral but the CS3.7 has a bit of warmth on top from what I remember so it should work. My current KEF LS50s sound great with the Benchmark gear. The aluminum coincident driver on the LS50s is similar in intent to the CS3.7. |
sdl4 Glad I made you laugh. A tubed pre-amp is suggested in a separates set-up. On several auditions I heard that combination (tubed pre + ss power) and it does not disappoint. The BHK pre-amp is very fine. You will not become disappointed. What other gear including cabling rounds out your system?Regarding AYRE, I dare report that this may be the only brand who's power amp does not require a tubed preamp (Twenty Series). Unequivocally, this special series possess a tubed Soul. Happy Listening! |
@yyzsantabarbara Congrats on your 3.7s purchase let's see how you like them.I might follow you soon as i'm contemplating a pair of 2.7s and a Gryphon Diablo 300 to drive them.I have to postpone my big reference rig project for the next few years but don't want to stay without a system therefore a pair of 2.7s or 3.7s paired with a Diablo 300 would do just fine.I'll keep you guys posted. |
yyzsantabarara, Congrats on the 3.7s! What finish are they? I'd love to have a pair of those speakers, but my 2.2s look and sound so good in my living room that it's hard for me to justify newer and larger speakers. And don't let your toddler run the house! If the the 3.7s don't work in the office, just switch rooms with your son and tell him it's about time he got to work and started paying his own way. |
Just bought a pair of CS3.7's. Going to drive and pick it up on Saturday. It has been 12 years since I demoed and wanted to buy the CS 3.7 and the stars aligned quickly this past 3 weeks. I was going to buy the Yamaha NS5000 for the office but the CS3.7 will fit better (less bass) and I love this model. I am going to be putting this in my office which is way too small. However, I did demo them long ago in a small room (with subs no less). I also have the room acoustically treated and I am going to call up Mitch Barnett of Acoustic Sounds in Canada to develop a few convolution files (DRC) to run my digital via ROON. My analog only SACD player may not work with the CS3.7 in this room since I won't be able to do DRC with that, but I also like headphones for that player. I do have a much larger room downstairs for this speaker if I cannot make it work in the office, but my toddler has that as his play room. I can share with him once he goes back to school. Pretty sure this DRC exercise in the office will be successful, especially with the CS3.7. My gear is an all Benchmark stack, HPA4 preamp | DAC3B | AHB2 amp | Benchmark Speaker cables | Benchmark StarQuad XLR between pre-amp and amp | Audience AU24 SE on 3 sources to the preamp. I believe this should be a good sounding setup. If not the CS 3.7's go downstairs. I will likely get a second AHB2 to run in mono. |
jafant, I have to laugh after you (and others) encouraged me to get a tube preamp for my Thiel 2.2's and then you picked up a tubeless Ayre integrated amp to drive your Thiels after I broke down and bought a BHK preamp for my system. My BHK still needs more burn-in, but it already sounds great. It adds body to reproduction of instruments and broadens the sound stage in a very pleasing and natural way, but it never sounds flabby or loose the way some tube amps/preamps can sound. |
YYZsantabarbara - here are some thoughts about Thiel product versions - upgrades follow this general pattern. A product is introduced with components, especially drivers, being prototypes and early small production runs. Within the first year it becomes obvious through 100% production final testing that some tweaking would better center the speakers (made of real, settled production parts) within their window of acceptability. This first revision is generally not announced, since no real circuitry or specifications are changed - merely subtle improvement of more speakers. At some later time, after ongoing feedback from dealers, reviewers, users, staff listening and Jim’s own scrutiny, a second revision is made which is often more significant and serves to upgrade the perceived shortcomings of the product. Sometimes this second revision carries a price increase. In other words the cost / performance plateau is adjusted toward optimum. In some cases the upgrade is significant such as the CS5i (improved); in some cases it is more subtle, but always more optimum, what the product wanted to be when it grew up - the mature iteration of the design. In the case of the 3.7, here is what I found. In January 2007 the CS3.7 was introduced (original version - I have no layout or schematic.) On Jan 12, 2008 revision 1 was introduced at approximate serial number #517,18. On October 4, 2008, revision 2 was initiated at approximate serial number #881,82. Revision 2 is the current, mature layout. The changes in revision 2 over revision 1 are significant: 3 changes, all in the tweeter feed section - addition of a bypass resistor, and changes in coil and capacitor values. These changes affect the shape of the roll-in of the lower tweeter to optimize the blend with the midrange roll out, cleaning up frequency and time-domain coarseness in the upper midrange. Note that the 3.7 UMR got some criticism and someone offers an after-market kit to address it (I’m not recommending that kit.) All in, I would suggest you consider the upgrade if your speakers are under #880 and upper midrange "rightness" is a concern. Note that many rooms with hard surfaces or dimensional problems exacerbate upper midrange glare and ringing. A problem in a ’bright’ room can go away in a ’sweet’ room. Note also that if you're in there making changes: the added 20 ohm tweeter feed resistor and the existing 12 ohm should become Mills MRA-12s, and the feed cap and its bypass should be upgraded to a ClarityCap CSA 16uF at as high a voltage as you can fit and afford ($25-$35 / each). Just my opinion from my hot-rodding experience. Have fun. |
@thieliste Thanks. Can this be easily done or would the speaker need to be shipped to Coherent Source Service? Years ago I bought a cool car instead of the Thiel 3.7’s. I sold the car 2 weeks ago on Facebook, it was crazy, sold in less than an hour. I am thinking of getting that CS3.7 that got away all those years ago with the car sale proceeds. |
i've owned my pair of gently used cs.5 minitowers for about 4 years now, i wouldn't own any others, they were the only speakers i tried that would work in my 14' wide tin can listening room, they image like just about no other speaker in a small room. the speakers themselves are not immediately apparent as sound sources for anything i play on them. their mono specificity is the best i've heard of any speaker in any room. best of all, unlike the bigger thiels, these are MELLOW! but still accurate, i can still "hear into" dense recordings about as well as with the last pair of maggies i heard. on the best recordings their stereo imaging is wall-to-wall with almost palpable instrument placement. they are power-hungry just like their bigger thiel brothers but not as tough a load for non-audiophile amps to power. they have the cleanest purest deep bass i've heard on anything less than a megabuck system. they pass the "sit-down-stand-up test with flying colors. wish i'd found these decades ago. |
It might be true. But, you know what they say about opinions. Unless, one really knows the listener and their perceptions and their experience, or there is consensus from an adequate sample size, I suggest prioritizing the objective information first. If an amp manufacturer can deliver the goods into a low impedance, they will brag about it. On the other hand, specs and measurements are only prerequisites for narrowing down the suitable prospective choices. After that, there are elements of the sound that at this time escape those criterion. I suggest dealing with what we do know before venturing into the unknown. Not doing so is tantamount to traveling to an unknown destination in the dark. |
@thoft, Hold on. You might not actually prefer these to the 3.5’s. The 3.5’s will actually play deeper in the bass and do so with greater cohesion. The 3.7’s are better at dealing with the lobbing issues, both are more dynamic, especially the 7.2’s. The cost of amplification will certainly go up with either. On the other hand, replacement parts are much more available than are for the 3.5s. The BHK 250’s : https://www.psaudio.com/products/bhk-signature-amplifier/#tab-specs aren’t rated into 2 Ohms, being " 2 Ohm ....stable into musical transients" only suggests that the amp won’t go into oscillation when temporarily confronted with such a load. Same for the M700’s: https://www.psaudio.com/products/stellar-m700-power-amplifier/#tab-specs Class D amps are not typically comfortable with sub 4 Ohm loads, The BHK 300’s seem up to the task, but not especially enjoying it: https://www.stereophile.com/content/ps-audio-bhk-signature-300-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurement... These later Thiel’s don’t just visit these lower impedances; they live there: https://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs72-loudspeaker-measurements https://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs37-loudspeaker-measurements @Thieliste has given excellent advice recommending some of the best amps for these speakers. The Momentum amps jump to mind as well. The Gryphon’s are probably the best amps I’ve ever heard, but the are not inexpensive(!), and the US distribution has been inconsistent in the past, new ownership seemingly following the originators design philosophy might change that, but the possibility of having to ship these heavy amps back to Denmark is a bit daunting to me. The Krells seem to need to be recapped a bit more often than some others and that’s not cheap either, though IMHO worth it. The Luxman specs are somewhat ambiguous. |
My audire forte can do 2 ohms 400 watts but problem is that the parts for the amp is so rare I don’t want something to go wrong and then it might as well be paperweight. Anyone got recommendations for amps I can find used under 10k for the 3.7 cause I’m probably more likely to get the amp first than the speakers. |
@thoft There's no way your going to drive 7.2s properly with this Adcom, you need to find Krell FPB 400CX for 7.2s.You'd better look for 3.7s much easier do find, best amp for this model is by far Gryphon Diablo 300.I might buy a pair of Thiels for the fourth time but i still need to think about it. |
@thoft, the Adcom GFA - 5800 is rated as 400 Watts into 4 Ohms: https://www.manualslib.com/manual/206141/Adcom-Gfa-5800.html?page=11#manual While it might very well be up to the task, one can see that it's not quite up to doubling down from 8 Ohms to 4 Ohms and there isn't a 2 Ohm rating. Unlike your 3.5's these model Thiel's have sub 3 Ohm loads: https://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs37-loudspeaker-measurements https://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs72-loudspeaker-measurements |
@thoft, OK, then you might not need the pre-amp part. As the eq only has single ended inputs and outputs, I wouldn’t be too concerned with the DAC’s balanced output performance. The Adcom GFA-5800 has a gain of 29 dB for full output via it’s RCA inputs. The equation for sensitivity escapes me for the moment (perhaps one of the other contributors can chime in) but an output of about 2 V ( 2V being the redbook standard, and 2.2 V the standard for HDCD, though for some reason quite a few DAC manufacturers seem to ignore these standards) or less will probably do. Many of today’s DAC’s have 32 bits or more capability, so long as the DAC has a volume control, and doesn’t have an especially high output, you’ll have bit’s to spare even with most hi rez material, with such a DAC there’s no worry of bit stripping due to reduced volume output. Though somewhat more unlikely: too low of an output from the DAC will prohibit the amp from offering full output. While some DAC’s offer eq functionality, most don’t have the 12 db range to adequately substitute for Thiel’s own eq. If you could find a DAC with the needed eq prerequisites, you could reopen the consideration of going balanced. But be warned, that even though the Adcom GFA’s rather unique reduced to 26 dB gain for it’s balanced inputs, the output of many if not most DAC’s balanced connections are often double that of it’s RCA outputs, and the concurrent required volume reduction could lead to a greater chance of bit stripping. If your using Tidal as your main streaming service, it's probably worth it to consider MQA capability. |