The speaker/amplification wars continue

Someone got too close to the brown acid at woodstock!

Yes richedge it is. However, listening to atmasphere explain things is always useful. 

mozartfan, you need to stop spinning your wheels. You are going to oversteer and crash. Wasting money on this silliness is not going to get you very far if not backwards. Save your money for a real amplifier that will drive anything. Then you have the ultimate flexibility with loudspeakers. I'm all for efficiency when it sounds good. One of the best full range speakers with subs would be nice. Many of them are 98 dB/watt/meter and above. Or, perhaps a horn loaded speaker like the ones atmasphere uses (I can never remember the name). Atmasphere's S30 or any number of smaller class A amps would drive anything over 94 dB wonderfully. 

is this the online version of staring into the mirror and talking to yourself for an hour?

good grief


In short ...Yes !!!!

OK Got ya
Triode more lenear, however high eff required,,say 94db ses ++
= High quality FR (gonna cost ya) and or horns, 
I LOVE horns, at least Richard's loan horn the 1960's <agnovox tweeter horn
+ I have another 1960's horn I bought off ebay the Jensen midrange V17C6965.
The highs comming out this horn are just stunning, putting to same the Seas Millennium tweeter. 
Horns rule. 
S yeah If I had a all horn system Triode would be cool, But I don't, I have Seas W18's as bass 87db = power required.
My speakers are
87db + 91db + 97db. 
LOVE IT!!!!
Best sound ever in my system, The Defy7 is singing gloriously.

Triode mode can not produce slam when needed, as in Elliott Carter vocal work, Whats Next operetta.

Yes, you need enough power and this is probably true of your amps but not of all triode amps :)


But if you have enough power from a triode amp there isn't any going back to pentodes. Of course, triode power is more expensive than pentode (pentodes trade off linearity for more power) which is why higher efficiency speakers are useful!

That is correct. Triodes makes less power but are more linear (allowing them to sound better)

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OK Thanks for the explantion. I fliped the Ultra switch on the cayin EL34 baby amp back to Ultra, back to Triode,,, not sure what was what..
Then I realized the Triode sounded weaker.
Then something went out, took to a  Baton Rouge tech, he tested , all was OK, sold it off at a loss and thats that on Triode.
Triode mode can not produce slam when needed, as in Elliott Carter vocal work, Whats Next operetta.

For this opening requires KT88 in full PP mode.

If only you guys could hear these W18's working in real time.
Kettle drums go ~~BOOMMMMM~~
Subs? Not necessary


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NjOpVpFy20&t=210s

I would guess each has tube has their pluses over the other.

That is correct. Triodes makes less power but are more linear (allowing them to sound better). Pentodes wired in triode (that switch to which you referred) aren't the same thing! Triode P-P amps are available in a variety of power levels.

You might consider what push pull *triode* amps can do. Triodes are a lot more linear than pentodes and tetrodes.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Cayin EL34 *baby amp* has a switch for Triode and Ultra Linaer
I never understood what these 2 modes were, But I can say for triode you need a  higher sens speaker than the Thors at 87db.
I would guess each has  tube has their pluses over the other. 
From what i've heard the EL34 has a  superior midrange t vs the character of the KT88.
Honestly hard to say.
Richard Gray lent me  his Dynaco modded EL34  aka *The Baby Gray* and his Allan Organ monos with KT120's. 
I really found it hard to tell the dif twix my Defy KT88, EL34,  KT120, all sounded close, 
But was not done with extensive testing on  a  higher sens mid/tweeter.
A xover with midtweet dome lacks the sens to pick up subtle nuances, Which is why I got rid of the Millennium. 
The driver acting as mid/tweet has to be higher than 94db sens, or else it will not voice subtilities in the tube amplification. That is to say low sens speakers 93db lower, with their xovers and drivers, suck the life out the  tube.
For speakers with 93db lower, ss amps  make a   good match. 
I'm considering 93db as the cutoff point, perhaps 92db. 
Horns and high quality FR drivers start sens ratings at 96/07 db
The 93db-96db is sort of a  **No Man's land* in speakers.
There really are only 2 classes of sensitivity in speaker designs, 
Low vs high. 

Perhaps others here can detect differences in various tubes, but I had a hard time with the EL34, vs KT88 vs KT120. 
The subtilities were *Miniscule*

ith respect to tube types in pushpull amps, I tend to like 6L6, KT66, EL34, and EL84 tubes over the likes of 6550, KT88, KT120 and KT150 tubes.

You might consider what push pull *triode* amps can do. Triodes are a lot more linear than pentodes and tetrodes.

Hello, 
Yes, These say they are rated at 14 ohms. Also, the have side foreign woofers. They probably go down to 35hz at least. I also remember there is something about using the metal cones on
the drivers to reduce ringing. Above my head so I don’t understand. They do sound great being pushed very loud on 10 watt amps. They also were hooked up to a tiny 5watt integrated and sounded really good. Coincidence speakers have been around for over 20 years. I have Soliloquy 6.3i speakers that are also tube friendly just not as friendly as the Coincidence speakers. 

The floor-standers are 14 ohms.

~~~~~~~~~~

The Midwoofers are Seas Excel ohms is 6.5, low 87 db. 
Best midwoofers , but the new Seas Graphene are superior. 
 I plan to use either a  Single W22 Graphene or  the currect dual W18E001's or a  W18E001 + W22 Graphene. 
a  pair of W22 Graphene will cost ya $1k
this  will be the bass floor to the Voxativ AC1A
Subs sound too stiff and low hifi. 

Hello,
Older coincidence speakers. The floor-standers are 14 ohms. These were my favorite speakers back in the day. I know these can be pushed with very little power via SET. This store I shop at has a used pair in their tube room hooked up to a pair of Cary 300Bs. One of the things holding me back from getting them is the color. They are light oak. I even thought about having them  refinished. https://holmaudio.com/product/coincidentsuper-eclipse-v2-towers/
I love the sound of these speakers. I believe they will ship stuff. If you are in the Chicagoland area you can check them out. 

$800 vs $5k, hardly tell them apart when hooked up to a Class A high sens FR speaker.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now why is this? How can a  $800 tube amp perform almost if not identical whena  trult non coloring high tech /fidelity speaker is in the room?
Old pros might be able to guess which is which ina  blind test, Most audiophiles will have to lucky guess.
The answer  is, due to the speaker voicing perfection , when testing is done at ow volume, Sure when you crank up each amp, then you will note one has the more bass slam and less distorion as gain goes higher.
There is not much to gain  between a cayin el34 amp, at $800 and my Deft KT88 at 75 pounds, when vol gain is low. 
The one will do the job almost as good as the other whena  high quality FR/high sens speaker is in the circuit. 
And at low voloume for small rooms, a  SET is not required on a  97db speaker. Any PP will be just fine. 

Look I should be more clear about my set and future plans. 
When a nice gift of cash was given to me, I went straight to jadis used list here on Audiogon and saw the Defy. 
Done deal, 
Sold off the Jadis Orch Refer. 
Now the amp sat 10 yrs, as i had no cash fora  good preamp.
I was broke.
Only recently i had the Defy up N running, 
And now after cking out other speaker options, the high sens FR variety caught my attention.
Ordered a  few budget brands, and firgured the higher sesns FR variety is definetly superior to Seas Millennium midtweeter. 
Now that case is closed,.
Only by chance I found the Voxativ and now thats a done deal as well.
What I was doubting is the  matching of the PP witha  higher sens FR. 
Having experimented with various 91db FR, it looks like the much higher 97db will also be no major issue with the 100 watt PP.
The vol gain on the DPL linestage was no mkore than 9 oclock, and its that way with the 91db speaker.
With a  new higher quality alps ~41 steps~ this added  control in the  linestage gain,  will offer more flexibility in db output. 
The Defy is not at all needed fora  97db speaker, If I could do it all over, I;d have a   Cayin EL34 amp, the little guy., but more than enough power for a  97db speaker. And really offering close to  the Defy's performance.  ~~with $1500 mods~~~
Again this roundabouts back to my earlier proposition, that speakers are everything in a  system. 
$800 vs $5k, hardly tell them apart when hooked up to a  Class A high sens FR speaker.
This is what has  been on my mind lately.
 

Thinking about the unmeasurable distortion and incredible inner detail attracts me to SET. But then there are all these limitations and problems. Oh well. They do have a nice set of desirable qualities, for those willing and able to put up with the rest.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This pretty much sums up what has been going on in my musings into the SET amps.
For that glorious midrange and upper highs, which can bea  surreal experience, 
Most of my classical has passages that are demanding  in gritty hz overload levels, Like Schnittke's symphonies, Pettersson, Elliott Carter, many passges that R&R.  
Requiring a  circuit that can  respond and recover with ease.

ith respect to tube types in pushpull amps, I tend to like 6L6, KT66, EL34, and EL84 tubes over the likes of 6550, KT88, KT120 and KT150 tubes.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Would have been nice had Jadis made the Defy to accept lower watt tubes, Richard always reminds me the Defy is a picky amp, and best not get experiemental..I had KT150's in the amp for a few days,, 
So yeah I'd like to try some KT66's, EL34's as  my plan is to add a  97 db FR speaker, running the Seas W18 87db as backup low end, 40-1500hz.
Someone here mentioned the lower watt EL34 would not make a dif in lowering output on the Defy, 
The Defy and 97 db  FR will just have to learn to get along with each other.
I will replace the  alps control on the Jadis DPL, at least I'll have a  better control on gain. The alps has 42 or 46 steps. 

Stream of consciousness belongs in modernist novels (Joyce, Faulkner, etc.) not in audio discussion posts.

Thinking about the unmeasurable distortion and incredible inner detail attracts me to SET. But then there are all these limitations and problems. Oh well. They do have a nice set of desirable qualities, for those willing and able to put up with the rest. 

@mozartfan While I am also a fan of easy to drive speakers, regardless of your conclusion I really should point something out. The Defy 7 is a rather large amplifier and a 211 SET is not. In a nutshell if you want to know how PP does against SET, to start with maybe both amps should be the same power!

Another way to look at this is if you really want to know the difference between the two, how about eliminate some variables, like make sure both amps in the comparison use the same output tubes at least.

If you want to know weaknesses of SETs here are a few:

1) Because SETs make about 10% distortion at full power, if you really want to hear what they can do the amp should be driving a speaker that is efficient enough that the amp **never** makes more than about 20% of full power. This prevents the higher ordered harmonics from becoming audible; if they become audible it will be perceived as 'dynamics'. IOW the 'dynamic' character of SETs is caused by distortion and nothing else.

2) Obviously the speaker choice must be done carefully as outlined above. The output impedance of any SET is fairly high and the amp does not act as a voltage source, so your speaker choices are limited.


3) The higher the power of the SET the more its bandwidth is limited by the output transformer. This is true of PP too, but isn't really a problem until you are making over about 100 watts, as opposed to about 6 or7 with an SET. This is why the lower powered SETs like the 45s are preferred, but a 45 can only make 0.75 watts!

4) One advantage of SETs is that as you decrease the power the distortion goes down to the point that its unmeasurable. Distortion obscures detail; this is the source of the 'inner detail' that read about in so many SET reviews. But this property isn't limited to SETs, there are a number of PP amplifier topologies that allow this as well. 


5) You'd think an SET would have the simplest signal path but that isn't always the case. There are amplifier designs that have only 1 gain stage; SETs have 2 or 3. In an SET distortion is compounded from one stage of gain to the next in the amplifier. If you have a PP design and in particular if that design is fully balanced from input to output, you can cancel even ordered harmonics in each stage as the signal progresses through the amp. This results in dramatically lower distortion (smoother sound with more detail) even if feedback is not used.

I've yet to see a situation where an SET could sound better than a PP amp **when the variables are more controlled**. Its very safe to say its an antiquated technology which has been sidelined by succeeding arts.

War!!  
No interest to us pacifists.

Take a breath!!

It sounds like fun doing this sort of listening shoot outs, but, I hope you don't draw broad conclusions from the results.  At best, you can say this or that particular amp, running a particular set of tubes, in your particular system, and in accord with your particular taste, was the best.  You will have just one set of data in the evaluation of particular approaches to tube amplification.  

From my own experience, I would not conclude that one particular approach is the best.  I own two pushpull amps--one using the 45 tube, the other 349 (i.e., both amps are low-powered), and I have owned and heard many other pushpull amps.  I also own a parallel SET amp (2a3) and have heard many other SET amps, including those that run 211, 845 and other somewhat higher power tubes.  Note that many of the cheaper amps out there running the 211 and 845 do not run them at the very high plate voltages that the tubes are capable of running (a good thing, given how dangerous this can be if not properly constructed).  I have also heard about ten different output transformerless (OTL) amps.  If I were forced to pick favorites, my top picks would be a custom made OTL amp and the pushpull Western Electric 59A amp (runs extremely rare 252 tube).  Among the amps I own, I like the pushpull amp running 349 output tube (essentially a rebuilt Western Electric 133A amp) the most even though it is not nearly as expensive as the parallel SET amp.

At least as important as the basic topology is a whole host of other factors, such as the quality of the parts (particularly output transformers), the basic design choices, and tubes utilized in the amp.  Like anyone else into the tube game, I have my favorites, although this does not necessarily mean that anything else is out of the game.  For example, with respect to tube types in pushpull amps, I tend to like 6L6, KT66, EL34, and EL84 tubes over the likes of 6550, KT88, KT120 and KT150 tubes.  For SET amps, I like 45 and 2A3 tubes over the popular 300B.

There are no outright winners and losers in ANY give aspect of tube amp designs.

and let us not  forget, 
Both Einstein and Jung were labeled as *wierdos* by their colleagues. 
~~~~
I Get by with alittle help from my friends, 
I get by with alittle help from my friends
Joe Cocker

wolfie62185 posts05-14-2021 12:34amThis is a very strange and weird post by the OP.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~Unusual~~ I agree
~~But strange/weird~~~, maybe you are not interested in this subject, and that I can understand.
So taking the 2 above comments , not as ~snides~ but as honest, fair and open free speech ..I took it easy and thought about my next move.
Obviously there are no fish biting on this topic and so I am just going to have to fish in other waters..
Lets see the Inet perhaps have some fish, = a  good answer.
So I type in 
~~Weaknesses of SET amplification~~~
and what do I catch?
None other than 
~Steve Hoffmans's page~
Oh its a big one.
And note 
~THis topic has been CLOSED~
Seems this topic is highly sensitive (pun intended) material, hush=hush.
Let me state at the get-go
I only employa  few jazz cds for the excellent record quality as testing cds, to ck the performance ofa  amp, speakers, tweak, upgrade.
Other than  for these pirposes, I  listen exclusively to classical, chamber yes, but also full orchestra.
Note the opening question.
My answer has been found. 
SET amplification will  have less than satisfactory results, when the music calls upon, power and muscle.
Jadis Defy7 will remain in place. 
paired with a  97b full range and  dual 87db midwoofers.
Had wolfie62 held back his free, fair open speech, I might not ever have typed this Q to the Inet's vast info recorded log.
I have not read through this topic on Steve Hoffman's page, the OP  gave me all I needed to know.
I will most likely let Richard know  that I have lost interest in his 211 SET.
Ohh I just peeked to the 2nd post, 
Futher affirming what I feared might be the result of the SET experiment.

Thanks Wolfie62 for inspiring me to make further research. You've been a big help
;--))

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/pros-and-cons-of-set-single-ended-triode-systems.136051/

This is a very strange and weird post by the OP. 

is this the online version of staring into the mirror and talking to yourself for an hour?

good grief

I just  gota  message on a coment I made on his YT video of the Cayin 845,,says in his note ~~Hey Paul, I  shipped the cayin 845 back, only listened to vocals with it,,, I am now listening to a  KT150 with complex music~~~ What does this tell you??
The RG 211 will be tested as by fire. 
I know what the Defy can do, can a SET  beat it? 
We will know soon enough. 

May not get a  fair shake here with the RG SET
AS the 5 incher FR is 91db  and the 4 incher arrives nextw eek is 91db
Richard recommends speakers 94+ db sens. 
So we have low sens = under 90db
Mid level sens = 90-93db
High sens = 94db+++
I have mid level sens. 91,91,91, nothing wiyj high sens,,so testing  will be faulty. 
hummm, lets see, anyone have a  high sens driver they can send out, I'll pay ship both ways. 
Wait,,,Richard mentioned he has some old Magnovox horns in his stash.
maybe there are mid tweets which will give me at least a  better idea of what a SET is capable of.
I disconnected the W18's just now, so i can get a  good idea of what the Defy does with a  single FR mid sens driver,,,  vs the RG211.
For high sens FR you gotta pay the piper, those drivers are expensive. But now i see, higher sens = easier load on amp, = amp more effective/efficient. 
I get that now. 
If the RG211 SET can perform with passing colors ona  mid sens speaker, then I'll know its time to let  my beloved Defy go. 

and yes I plan to put the RG211 through a  ~~most grueling test~~This is the only way  we can find out how well SET's perform in complex instrumentation. 

without paying fees,

~~~Of course pay fees, But I will pay ship,. But not so sure i want to take the loss with all my recent upgrades. If the RG211 does everything right, then I'll have no choice but to sell the Defy. 
If SET system is superior to system PP amp, why hold onto the Defy??

Are you just trying to sell this amp without paying fees,lol.....I had a defy 7 for 3 or 4 years,its ok...nothing i would suggest anyone buying...pain in the ass and kind of dangerous to bias if not really knowledgeable plus extremely expensive to retube.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
WEll it does have tons of reserve power.
And Ricahrd is willing to install some higher quality pots for very easy biasing and far more flexibility, = the ones Jadis installed just a pinch one way or the other. I think for $300 he’ll install all 4.
So that issue can easily be resolved.
Yes 12 tubes X $40-$50.
$500 for 2k hours. I plan to go 2500-3k.
What the defy does possess are the massive blue Philips caps, which are worth their weight in pure Gold. Those caps, 2 on top, 4 underneath are musically magical.
+ I upgrade the 12 caps under chassis to Mundorf SESGO, really super nice in bass/upper bass.
No snakeoil, I heard the upgrade , even blind test i could say which is which.
Most of the resistors have been upgraded to Takman Rey’s, Which made some gains.
All in all this is one very musical amplifier, which i am not sure i want to part with.
Its is Jadis you do realize.
The issue with lack of separation in orchestral instruments may be more to do with the FR speakers.
can’t say for sure til i hear the RG211.
Then I’ll get a good idea what the Defy is all about.Its potential.
+ I’m not so sure these Svet 6550’s are superior to EHKT88’s. RG says its the same tube.
Not sure.
I’m thinking I can get some more out the Defy with the EHKT88’s.
+ These Svet 6550’s are getting up there on hours, 1500-2k, so some of the upper shine is rubbing off.
All these factors have to be considered in this shootout of the Defy6550/used tubes vs the RG211. 
+ Have a  higher quality FR arriving  next week, a  4 inher, Again allowing for more testing and superior judging. 
Could take some time before we get some clear ideas whats going on  here in this shootout of SET vs PP.
RG's 211 has  high quality trans,. vs Jadis' massive trans. 
This could end up with a  
System 1 and System 2. 
Keep Defy + add the RG211.

I asked you this in another thread and you never answered is that Richard Gray the same guy as Richard Gray Power Company?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes The one and only
Richard the electrical genius.
He;'s been harping on me, **You have the wrong speakers** with my Seas 87db + DEfy 7. 
He was right all along, Had I listened I could have prevented going down the expensive Thor upgrade road.
Now I am going FR/high sedsn, now he's harping , **you have the wrong amplification***
He may be correct, not sure til i catually get his 211 amp he designed. 
I think he  sells this amp, didn't say  specifically, all he said is *folks who use MY 211 and 250,,,,** So I am guessing I can sell my Defy and get his 211. 
Sunday he'll be at his shop, i'll get the amp, and will know whats up with the SET sound. 

Are you just trying to sell this amp without paying fees,lol.....I had a defy 7 for 3 or 4 years,its ok...nothing i would suggest anyone buying...pain in the ass and kind of dangerous to bias if not really knowledgeable  plus extremely expensive to retube....

I asked you this in another thread and you never answered is that Richard Gray the same guy as Richard Gray Power Company?