without paying fees,
~~~Of course pay fees, But I will pay ship,. But not so sure i want to take the loss with all my recent upgrades. If the RG211 does everything right, then I'll have no choice but to sell the Defy.
If SET system is superior to system PP amp, why hold onto the Defy?? |
I just gota message on a coment I made on his YT video of the Cayin 845,,says in his note ~~Hey Paul, I shipped the cayin 845 back, only listened to vocals with it,,, I am now listening to a KT150 with complex music~~~ What does this tell you??
The RG 211 will be tested as by fire.
I know what the Defy can do, can a SET beat it?
We will know soon enough. |
I asked you this in another thread and you never answered is that Richard Gray the same guy as Richard Gray Power Company?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes The one and only
Richard the electrical genius.
He;'s been harping on me, **You have the wrong speakers** with my Seas 87db + DEfy 7.
He was right all along, Had I listened I could have prevented going down the expensive Thor upgrade road.
Now I am going FR/high sedsn, now he's harping , **you have the wrong amplification***
He may be correct, not sure til i catually get his 211 amp he designed.
I think he sells this amp, didn't say specifically, all he said is *folks who use MY 211 and 250,,,,** So I am guessing I can sell my Defy and get his 211.
Sunday he'll be at his shop, i'll get the amp, and will know whats up with the SET sound. |
Are you just trying to sell this amp without paying fees,lol.....I had a defy 7 for 3 or 4 years,its ok...nothing i would suggest anyone buying...pain in the ass and kind of dangerous to bias if not really knowledgeable plus extremely expensive to retube.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
WEll it does have tons of reserve power.
And Ricahrd is willing to install some higher quality pots for very easy biasing and far more flexibility, = the ones Jadis installed just a pinch one way or the other. I think for $300 he’ll install all 4.
So that issue can easily be resolved.
Yes 12 tubes X $40-$50.
$500 for 2k hours. I plan to go 2500-3k.
What the defy does possess are the massive blue Philips caps, which are worth their weight in pure Gold. Those caps, 2 on top, 4 underneath are musically magical.
+ I upgrade the 12 caps under chassis to Mundorf SESGO, really super nice in bass/upper bass.
No snakeoil, I heard the upgrade , even blind test i could say which is which.
Most of the resistors have been upgraded to Takman Rey’s, Which made some gains.
All in all this is one very musical amplifier, which i am not sure i want to part with.
Its is Jadis you do realize.
The issue with lack of separation in orchestral instruments may be more to do with the FR speakers.
can’t say for sure til i hear the RG211.
Then I’ll get a good idea what the Defy is all about.Its potential.
+ I’m not so sure these Svet 6550’s are superior to EHKT88’s. RG says its the same tube.
Not sure.
I’m thinking I can get some more out the Defy with the EHKT88’s.
+ These Svet 6550’s are getting up there on hours, 1500-2k, so some of the upper shine is rubbing off.
All these factors have to be considered in this shootout of the Defy6550/used tubes vs the RG211.
+ Have a higher quality FR arriving next week, a 4 inher, Again allowing for more testing and superior judging.
Could take some time before we get some clear ideas whats going on here in this shootout of SET vs PP.
RG's 211 has high quality trans,. vs Jadis' massive trans.
This could end up with a
System 1 and System 2.
Keep Defy + add the RG211.
|
and yes I plan to put the RG211 through a ~~most grueling test~~This is the only way we can find out how well SET's perform in complex instrumentation.
|
May not get a fair shake here with the RG SET
AS the 5 incher FR is 91db and the 4 incher arrives nextw eek is 91db
Richard recommends speakers 94+ db sens.
So we have low sens = under 90db
Mid level sens = 90-93db
High sens = 94db+++
I have mid level sens. 91,91,91, nothing wiyj high sens,,so testing will be faulty.
hummm, lets see, anyone have a high sens driver they can send out, I'll pay ship both ways.
Wait,,,Richard mentioned he has some old Magnovox horns in his stash.
maybe there are mid tweets which will give me at least a better idea of what a SET is capable of.
I disconnected the W18's just now, so i can get a good idea of what the Defy does with a single FR mid sens driver,,, vs the RG211.
For high sens FR you gotta pay the piper, those drivers are expensive. But now i see, higher sens = easier load on amp, = amp more effective/efficient.
I get that now.
If the RG211 SET can perform with passing colors ona mid sens speaker, then I'll know its time to let my beloved Defy go. |
wolfie62185 posts05-14-2021 12:34amThis is a very strange and weird post by the OP.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~Unusual~~ I agree ~~But strange/weird~~~, maybe you are not interested in this subject, and that I can understand. So taking the 2 above comments , not as ~snides~ but as honest, fair and open free speech ..I took it easy and thought about my next move. Obviously there are no fish biting on this topic and so I am just going to have to fish in other waters.. Lets see the Inet perhaps have some fish, = a good answer. So I type in ~~Weaknesses of SET amplification~~~ and what do I catch? None other than ~Steve Hoffmans's page~ Oh its a big one. And note ~THis topic has been CLOSED~ Seems this topic is highly sensitive (pun intended) material, hush=hush. Let me state at the get-go I only employa few jazz cds for the excellent record quality as testing cds, to ck the performance ofa amp, speakers, tweak, upgrade. Other than for these pirposes, I listen exclusively to classical, chamber yes, but also full orchestra. Note the opening question. My answer has been found. SET amplification will have less than satisfactory results, when the music calls upon, power and muscle. Jadis Defy7 will remain in place. paired with a 97b full range and dual 87db midwoofers. Had wolfie62 held back his free, fair open speech, I might not ever have typed this Q to the Inet's vast info recorded log. I have not read through this topic on Steve Hoffman's page, the OP gave me all I needed to know. I will most likely let Richard know that I have lost interest in his 211 SET. Ohh I just peeked to the 2nd post, Futher affirming what I feared might be the result of the SET experiment. Thanks Wolfie62 for inspiring me to make further research. You've been a big help ;--)) https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/pros-and-cons-of-set-single-ended-triode-systems.136051/ |
and let us not forget,
Both Einstein and Jung were labeled as *wierdos* by their colleagues.
~~~~
I Get by with alittle help from my friends,
I get by with alittle help from my friends
Joe Cocker |
Thinking about the unmeasurable distortion and incredible inner detail attracts me to SET. But then there are all these limitations and problems. Oh well. They do have a nice set of desirable qualities, for those willing and able to put up with the rest.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This pretty much sums up what has been going on in my musings into the SET amps.
For that glorious midrange and upper highs, which can bea surreal experience,
Most of my classical has passages that are demanding in gritty hz overload levels, Like Schnittke's symphonies, Pettersson, Elliott Carter, many passges that R&R.
Requiring a circuit that can respond and recover with ease.
|
ith respect to tube types in pushpull amps, I tend to like 6L6, KT66, EL34, and EL84 tubes over the likes of 6550, KT88, KT120 and KT150 tubes.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Would have been nice had Jadis made the Defy to accept lower watt tubes, Richard always reminds me the Defy is a picky amp, and best not get experiemental..I had KT150's in the amp for a few days,,
So yeah I'd like to try some KT66's, EL34's as my plan is to add a 97 db FR speaker, running the Seas W18 87db as backup low end, 40-1500hz.
Someone here mentioned the lower watt EL34 would not make a dif in lowering output on the Defy,
The Defy and 97 db FR will just have to learn to get along with each other.
I will replace the alps control on the Jadis DPL, at least I'll have a better control on gain. The alps has 42 or 46 steps. |
Look I should be more clear about my set and future plans.
When a nice gift of cash was given to me, I went straight to jadis used list here on Audiogon and saw the Defy.
Done deal,
Sold off the Jadis Orch Refer.
Now the amp sat 10 yrs, as i had no cash fora good preamp.
I was broke.
Only recently i had the Defy up N running,
And now after cking out other speaker options, the high sens FR variety caught my attention.
Ordered a few budget brands, and firgured the higher sesns FR variety is definetly superior to Seas Millennium midtweeter.
Now that case is closed,.
Only by chance I found the Voxativ and now thats a done deal as well.
What I was doubting is the matching of the PP witha higher sens FR.
Having experimented with various 91db FR, it looks like the much higher 97db will also be no major issue with the 100 watt PP.
The vol gain on the DPL linestage was no mkore than 9 oclock, and its that way with the 91db speaker.
With a new higher quality alps ~41 steps~ this added control in the linestage gain, will offer more flexibility in db output.
The Defy is not at all needed fora 97db speaker, If I could do it all over, I;d have a Cayin EL34 amp, the little guy., but more than enough power for a 97db speaker. And really offering close to the Defy's performance. ~~with $1500 mods~~~
Again this roundabouts back to my earlier proposition, that speakers are everything in a system.
$800 vs $5k, hardly tell them apart when hooked up to a Class A high sens FR speaker.
This is what has been on my mind lately.
|
$800 vs $5k, hardly tell them apart when hooked up to a Class A high sens FR speaker.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now why is this? How can a $800 tube amp perform almost if not identical whena trult non coloring high tech /fidelity speaker is in the room?
Old pros might be able to guess which is which ina blind test, Most audiophiles will have to lucky guess.
The answer is, due to the speaker voicing perfection , when testing is done at ow volume, Sure when you crank up each amp, then you will note one has the more bass slam and less distorion as gain goes higher.
There is not much to gain between a cayin el34 amp, at $800 and my Deft KT88 at 75 pounds, when vol gain is low.
The one will do the job almost as good as the other whena high quality FR/high sens speaker is in the circuit.
And at low voloume for small rooms, a SET is not required on a 97db speaker. Any PP will be just fine. |
The floor-standers are 14 ohms.
~~~~~~~~~~
The Midwoofers are Seas Excel ohms is 6.5, low 87 db.
Best midwoofers , but the new Seas Graphene are superior.
I plan to use either a Single W22 Graphene or the currect dual W18E001's or a W18E001 + W22 Graphene.
a pair of W22 Graphene will cost ya $1k
this will be the bass floor to the Voxativ AC1A
Subs sound too stiff and low hifi. |
You might consider what push pull *triode* amps can do. Triodes are a lot more linear than pentodes and tetrodes.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Cayin EL34 *baby amp* has a switch for Triode and Ultra Linaer
I never understood what these 2 modes were, But I can say for triode you need a higher sens speaker than the Thors at 87db.
I would guess each has tube has their pluses over the other.
From what i've heard the EL34 has a superior midrange t vs the character of the KT88.
Honestly hard to say.
Richard Gray lent me his Dynaco modded EL34 aka *The Baby Gray* and his Allan Organ monos with KT120's.
I really found it hard to tell the dif twix my Defy KT88, EL34, KT120, all sounded close,
But was not done with extensive testing on a higher sens mid/tweeter.
A xover with midtweet dome lacks the sens to pick up subtle nuances, Which is why I got rid of the Millennium.
The driver acting as mid/tweet has to be higher than 94db sens, or else it will not voice subtilities in the tube amplification. That is to say low sens speakers 93db lower, with their xovers and drivers, suck the life out the tube.
For speakers with 93db lower, ss amps make a good match.
I'm considering 93db as the cutoff point, perhaps 92db.
Horns and high quality FR drivers start sens ratings at 96/07 db
The 93db-96db is sort of a **No Man's land* in speakers.
There really are only 2 classes of sensitivity in speaker designs,
Low vs high.
Perhaps others here can detect differences in various tubes, but I had a hard time with the EL34, vs KT88 vs KT120.
The subtilities were *Miniscule* |
That is correct. Triodes makes less power but are more linear (allowing them to sound better)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ OK Thanks for the explantion. I fliped the Ultra switch on the cayin EL34 baby amp back to Ultra, back to Triode,,, not sure what was what.. Then I realized the Triode sounded weaker. Then something went out, took to a Baton Rouge tech, he tested , all was OK, sold it off at a loss and thats that on Triode. Triode mode can not produce slam when needed, as in Elliott Carter vocal work, Whats Next operetta. For this opening requires KT88 in full PP mode. If only you guys could hear these W18's working in real time. Kettle drums go ~~BOOMMMMM~~ Subs? Not necessary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NjOpVpFy20&t=210s |
OK Got ya Triode more lenear, however high eff required,,say 94db ses ++ = High quality FR (gonna cost ya) and or horns, I LOVE horns, at least Richard's loan horn the 1960's <agnovox tweeter horn + I have another 1960's horn I bought off ebay the Jensen midrange V17C6965. The highs comming out this horn are just stunning, putting to same the Seas Millennium tweeter. Horns rule. S yeah If I had a all horn system Triode would be cool, But I don't, I have Seas W18's as bass 87db = power required. My speakers are 87db + 91db + 97db. LOVE IT!!!! Best sound ever in my system, The Defy7 is singing gloriously. |
