The sense of smell evokes memories, while the sense of hearing evokes emotions
MrD, you touched upon this in your recent post. I thought it was a subject worth discussing here. Music can move us through emotional connection, it is well known. A question for all of you. Does playing your music on your system increase emotional connection more than playing it through a less HiFi system? One aspect of audio equipment marketing is for it's technical ability to bring us closer to the music by "getting out of the way" disappearing as some reviewers say. Suppose there was a speaker or amp that excelled in providing emotional connection, but measured poorly. Would you be willing to disregard the measurements and just go with your ears or your heart and soul? I believe that SET / horns systems are an example of this. This is not about promoting SET / horns, but just brought up as an example that some people may have already reached this conclusion. Just my thoughts, I welcome civilized and rational comments. I am open to those with a deeper understanding of this subject. Dennis
It was, in fact, owned by my brother-in-law, and at this very moment there is a brilliant blue sports car sitting in the tractor shed. On weekends I often take it for a spin at insane speeds.Have never encountered a two lane wide air car but on occasion encounter Ferraris and Porsches.
Sorry to the OP for the diversion....but talk about a song with strong emotional content with the drums and bass that causes "adrenaline surges" at proper volume that does indeed get better with a good system!
Thank you all. What a relief not to be ridiculed and attacked. I was concerned that this could be taken the wrong way. After all, by not spelling it out you all could have jumped to conclusions on your own. Instead you all found a way to relate and add your take on it. I do believe I came to the right place and look forward to sharing more as time permits. I guarantee you that if this turns out to be a real, not imagined effect, we are all in for the time of our lives. It has the possibility of opening up a whole new aspect of entertainment through music. No entertainment is not a good word for this, more like a drug effect. I have noticed that after hearing the effect, and then switching to the unmodified speakers, if feels like someone is missing, taken away, something you don't know was there until you hear it and then it's taken away. Only after experiencing and having it taken away, can you appreciate the "effect". Before that you have no way for comparison. Furthermore, since I can't talk much about how this accomplished, I would like to bring up another aspect that was a complete surprise that once again became obvious only when A / B ing. The unmodified speakers are in phase to each other of course and I know many can hear absolute polarity, but have you ever thought that the speakers are "free running" even though they are in phase, in correct polarity whatever you want to call it , they are not locked to anything, as we would say in the video business, they are not "genlocked" to a master generator. For those not familiar with the term, it just means in sync with a master sync clock. What does this have to do with audio? Not locked means freerunning, This is with a record on a TT as the source, nothing to do with DACs and clocks or jitter. What could this difference come from? How about locked to LIFE, the materials that I'm using are from the earth, in their natural unrefined condition with some help from "chemistry" to increase their effectiveness. I am thinking that one of the previously unthought of reasons why reproduced audio does not sound live, is because it is not "locked to life" or maybe I should say not locked to the earth as all live sound must be to fit the definition of "live sound". Yes, I know WTF is he talking about locked to life. Yes, this made my jaw drop and I hope I don't loose your all with this suggestion. Stay with me, be open minded, don't jump to conclusions until you can hear this for yourself. But think about, does that make sense to anybody? I am only opening up because you all been so kind to me. As I said, uncharted territory! Mr D thanks for the invitation, I will get back to you ASAP. Time to walk the dogs in the hills behind my house now before it gets dark. Dennis
That’s more like it, MrD ;-) . The 24 refers to my preferred bass drum size (24"), the bdp to my favorite vintage drum wrap, black diamond pearl. I also like that all the letters are flipped versions of the same shape. Aesthetics matter!
Just to mention this thread is reminiscent of ye olde audiophile conundrum of musicality vs resolution/detail. This debate has been going on like forever. Example: audio cassettes vs CDs or LPs vs CDs.
One other point to be made is that for music that includes lyrics, their higher intelligibility (afforded by higher quality recording and reproduction), and the beauty of a voice actually containing beauty (not all do, nor are intended to) captured in a well-recorded voice and reproduced by quality equipment, CAN have a huge effect on my emotional response to them (lyrics) and it (voice). The subtle inflections in a singers voice, and even the lyric’s meaning in extreme cases, can be obscured by low quality rec and rep. On the other hand, some singers use electronic distortion to intentionally change the sound of their voices, with artistic intent. I’m looking at you, Tom Waits ;-) .
Many years ago, when I was in the business, myself and some others, were invited by a manufacturer for a demonstration ( I was involved in many, but this one was different ). Placed below the listening chairs, were these " speakers " that created bass excitation below our buts. Tactile Transducer Bass Shaker is what it was called. The design was more specific to home theater, but we also listened to some music, as we were all asked to bring along a few of our favorite recordings. Admittedly, I enjoyed what it did for movie soundtracks, but did not care for it for music, however there were a few who liked the effect for music. I felt it was completely out of place, a lack of coherence, a separate entity to the entire performance, a complete disconnect. The outcome of this was, and still is, a very popular addition to home theater installation, and has founds it's way into gaming ( I have been in vehicles that have it, and I like it in vehicles ). Just a further thought on audio enhancement. Enjoy ! MrD.
Dennis, great thread. Your question has been answered, as far as I can tell. The greater level of detail and information from our recordings, obtained by us with our higher end systems, seems to me unanimous in that we are more emotionally involved during these times of listening. I think the idea, presented by bdp23, that because of this elevated level, gives us intellectual cues to the music, which enhances the emotional levels. As I mentioned in my post, I take at least an hour each day to experience this, sitting in front of my system, without any other, well, distractions, if you will. Everyone responding on your thread, no doubt, are music listeners 1st, and equipment listeners, 2nd. This is how I perceive what has been said. By all means, email me through Audiogon, and we will take it from there. My best to you all, Enjoy ! MrD.
djones51 No, you did not misunderstand. I did say that. I suspect that there is something going on beyond perception using the sense of hearing. That might provable through the second application that I mentioned. It might be verified by increased rate of germination of seeds. Certain music, (classical music mostly) has been scientifically proven to increase the rate of seed germination in real clinical research. The first application is for us audiophiles to enjoy as the result is lower distortion and deeper soundstage through hearing. As I said this is uncharted territory and even I have trouble believing it's possible. That's why I'm reaching out to other audiophiles. I would like to prove it one way or another. Then I could move on with my life if it's all a figment of my imagination. But I just can't let it go until then. Dennis
That makes more sense. Perhaps I misunderstood but it looked like you said other paths to receive information other than sensory perception. I am affraid our senses are the only path we have unless we evolve or start connecting to the brain.
djones51 My speaker does rely on sense of hearing and it sounds great. No brain connection. I will leave that to Elon Musk. I don't pretend to understand what's going on with my speaker. I found this "effect" when playing around as many of us do with speakers as a tweek. I have modified an existing well known speaker and have set up a A / B test. Modified pair vs. unmodified pair and can switch on the fly to demo. Dennis
bdp24 Excellent point. I love to hear about examples of how better HIFI provides more information or cues that increase the our enjoyment. I'm not trying to discredit the value of a better HIFI. My thrill of audio reproduction has always come from examples such as yours.
geoffait I'm afraid my OP has been detoured to seem like I'm referring to sensory perception when in fact what I'm alluding to is that are other paths such as emotional connection to receive information from loudspeakers in my case. I am working on a way to increase that emotional connection through the use of a supplemental driver in a speaker system. It has the additional benefits of lower distortion, deeper soundstage, etc. I can only say that I'm unaware of anyone who has ever attempted this approach and it might be for good reason. That reason being that it is just not possible. I am familiar with "beltism" BTW. I am carefully avoiding any association with snake oil tweeks as this could easily be dismissed as such. I am looking for validation, first through people listening and then if I get encouraging results through the usual test and measurement. There is a second application for this technology if I may be so bold to call it that, that is beyond it's use as an audio enhancement that is irrelevant to this discussion, the second use could be verified or busted through scientific research that is beyond my capabilities at this time. I cannot reveal exactly what this is because I am looking to bring a product to market. I have no resources to make this happen at this time. I am not discouraged by my lack of resources because I believe that if I'm truly on to something, it is significant enough that I will create a new movement or maybe a niche that will fuel itself into fruition. I am fully aware the the stupidity of launching another speaker co in a world of filled with hundreds and will gladly go back under my rock, (but still enjoy it personally for the rest of my life) if proven wrong. Dennis
Playback of recorded music is the closest thing we have to a time machine. It is an art form that exists in the time domain and, unlike film, which is experienced in a similar manner, music works through a sense that doesn't require light, and at one time gave us the earliest and most accurate directional cues as to which the direction the sabre tooth tiger lurked. Even though we can't see some things, we hear them first.
But seriously, this whole subject of sensory perception and the effects of local surroundings on the perceptions of hearing, taste, touch and sight has been been discussed ad nausea by Peter (RIP) and May Belt for the past thirty years. You can get free samples of PWB Silver Rainbow 🌈 Foil and Cream Electret just by asking. Nothing like a little mind-matter interaction to enhance the audiophile experience. Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water.
Actually, my post above over-simplifies the question. Better sonic quality in either recording, playback, or both, can make more audible two instruments, or two voices, playing or singing notes that are close but different that lesser recordings or reproducing equipment can obscure. That can have an effect on both the emotional and intellectual connection with the music.
Here's an example from a friend of mine who had no interest in hi-fi, but was a rabid music lover: His "stereo" was one of those all-in-one units with a "flip-down" turntable (older guys will know what I'm talking about ;-). The speakers folded together to make the unit portable, and when swung out were only a foot or so apart. Because of that, he never heard that there were two organs playing that riff in Elton John's "Bennie & The Jets", not one organ playing all the notes heard. The two organ parts, one in each stereo channel, were playing "question and answer" parts, a musical construct. Hearing the two parts separately changed their musical meaning, effecting both his emotional and intellectual response to the music.
J.S. Bach's Concerto For 4 Harpsichords And Orchestra is incredibly dense with notes from the harpsichords (and those of the orchestra), and the better the recording and reproduction, the more clearly can the notes played by each harpsichord be heard as separate musical lines, essential to appreciating the music. Again, that is of both emotional and intellectual benefit.
The better the recording and reproduction, the more audible will be the difference in timbre between two females singing close harmonies (I'm thinking of Iris Dement and Emmylou Harris in a recording of them I have), the beauty in the music obscured by insufficiently high recording and/or reproduction quality.
Plus, high quality sound is just more fun than lo-fi!
n80, thanks for the honest answer. What I was actually looking for is something like: I have an amp with no feedback that has 5% distortion and I don't care because of the emotional connection it gives me. Looks like I'm off to the SET specific forums next time I feel the need to have a conversation. Mr D. I feel a connection, if you are so inclined I would like to have a private conversation with you about this in the near future. If you are curious about my claim of going into uncharted territory as my partner in a business venture. It would be most helpful if you had a spiritual side. No money is required. This is conditional on being released from a verbal agreement with a good friend who although has shown some interest, is not providing what I need as a partner, (and he does not have a spiritual side). To the rest who replied, thank you for your input. Dennis
It is my brief experience that this IS a music lovers forum. At least there are some devoted, knowledgeable, articulate and sincere music lovers here.
And I feel like some of us did answer your question. At least I thought so. And I think maybe the answer is, it all depends.
As mentioned, some forms of very emotionally charged music, especially raw, simple, even primitive music do not require high end specs to move me.
There are certain symphonies that move me emotionally regardless of the system they are played on, but they do have more impact when played via a hi-fi system that fills the room with volume and richness. Likewise with an album like The Wall.
I think it is also important to remember that we can physically feel music aside from with our ears. This is in part a product of volume. That level of volume from a low-fi system can be distracting and unpleasant.
But, specifically to your question: As a long time music lover but a new audiophile, I couldn't care less about specs. Heck, I don't understand most of them. If the music moves me it moves me.
There are times when I get more involved through better sonics, but there are also times when I'm engaged thoroughly through the crappy laptop or whatever. So much depends on mood in my estimation. In writing about Atomic Rooster's Death Walks Behind You (a great heavy rock album if you haven't heard it), I saw the connection between the senses, noting that if I were a synesthesist (one who experiences sensory phenomena through other senses, e.g. hearing music as color), the sound of Vincent Crane's organ would be the odor of overripe flowers, a morbid sound—the smell of death. No question music triggers emotion, and that can be without highly fidelis reproduction.
bdp204, Interesting point! would you say that chords, melody, harmony, counterpoint, inversions, etc. in music that evoke emotion comprises most of what we seek to attain?
It is the chords, melody, harmony, counterpoint, inversions, etc. in music that evoke emotion. That can be provided by even a car radio. Higher quality reproduction has more effect on the intellectual properties in music.
Thank you Mr. D for the kind reply. I get what you are saying and agree. I'm looking for some input from a non technophile point of view. Maybe I should be asking this on a "music lovers" forum if there is such a thing. I really don't spend much time on this or other audio forums because, quite frankly and I'm not saying there is anything wrong with being fixated with the gear and wanting to talk about it, ( I think I was at one time and have outgrown that to some degree or to be kind I will say matured). I'm looking for validation of a new approach to reproduction of sound that I'm developing. I believe it is uncharted territory. Being as I said uncharted territory, I am having much difficulty proceeding on my own. n80, old blues recording is a good example, thank you for sharing that. geoffkait, thanks for Moodies quote. You are very perceptive in being able to take that leap and remind us of the blurring of senses, If I am to understand your meaning. I don't think I am going to find the dialog I was hoping for and nobody replied specifically to my question in my post about disregarding specs in favor of emotional connection. No disrespect intended, maybe this subject has been beaten to death on SET / horn forums and someone can point me to a good forum of that kind. I thought audiogon was the big daddy of audio forums and this was the place to go to for all things audio and it might very well be. So if anyone has anything to say no the subject I am asking about, please chime in. Or else I will continue on my own, It's very lonely out here, in the "uncharted territory". Dennis
I like old blues recordings. The emotional content of such music is its strong point. I do not appreciate it any more on my hi-fi system than I do my "low-fi" system.
I also like some totally throw away pop music. With some of that the system doesn’t make a lot of difference to me either.
But I want to listen to Steely Dan, Rush, Floyd and Dire Straits on my hi-fi.
Also agree with above regarding context. I’m a bit of a foodie and amateur cook. But when I’m down at my country place I can enjoy and even relish a can of Vienna sausages with a Budweiser and a pile of Cheetos on a paper plate.
George +1 . Intro to Ride my SeeSaw, by the Moody Blues. Cool ! ptss, what about vocalists ? What about the musicians ?( musicianship ). These instruments are not playing themselves. BTW, ever replace the M22 ? Enjoy ! MrD.
Be it sight, sound, the smell, the touch. There's something, Inside that we need so much, The sight of a touch, or the scent of a sound, Or the strength of an arquebus deep in the ground. The wonder of flowers, to be covered, and then to burst up, through tarmack, to the sun again, Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing, To lie in the meadow and hear the grass sing, To have all these things in our memories hoard, And to use them, To help us, To find...
capstan, I did appreciate your post on that thread, and I am sorry I did not respond. The answer to your question ( I believe ) is YES. As I mentioned, I listen to much music, in the car, on the patio, at poolside, clubhouse, and more. However, my main system is for " serious " listening, as, I want to " dive in ", and be in the audience. I am in a 55 + community, and although I have my own home, without any shared walls, I usually listen in the afternoon, so I can " open " the system up. I might be using 2 watts, if that much, for most of it. On peaks, I am sure more. I have never been as happy with planar, electrostatic, or conventional dynamic speakers ( and I, like many here, have owned some really stellar products ), as much as horns. I have stated many times why this is, but, I know my experiences and preferences are more appreciated on other Forums ( such as the Klipsch site ), because many share my enthusiasm and enjoyment for the same. But, to each his / her own. There is a plethora of fine products out there, and there is something for everybody. The key, is finding what you like, and build on that. I am happy you can sit and enjoy your music. I know too many, who, in a week, change a product, one after the other, after the other. And, I also know, many who feel as I do, with their systems. Never a right or wrong. Anyway, thanks for the mention ! Enjoy ! MrD.
I find music can be thoroughly enjoyed on mediocre system - dependant on circumstances, ie car audio,sundeck BBQ party, etc. However, for those of us who thrill to the nuance of delicate acoustic instruments, including woodwinds,flute,cello,guitar,violin,piano and harp, the quality of reproduction immeasurably enhances my enjoyment. For me,detail and dynamics are magical at bringing the piece alive. However; I still remember the first time I heard Heiffetz play Tchaikovsky. I was in my old Ford Falcon? Station wagon. Am radio. I pulled off the highway and sat entranced ! Spellbound. Joyful. That’s how I came to buy that record. Still treasured.
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