The Problem with Synergistic Research

Sgr,
Your experience parallels mine in many ways. Like you, I have found there is more than one way to skin a cat. The hyping of new cable products seems to be the rule now and this must be taken with a grain of salt, IMO, for the reasons I outlined in my earlier post.

In my system I still use SR cables -- in series with cables from HiDiamond, Bybee, Cardas, ASI Liveline and Supra LoRad (as a bridge connector with Oyaide plugs/IECs) to achieve the effects I am looking for. I find that active shielding helps the sound -- especially when used in series with other cables.

But, like you, I find the "Active Shielding mess" with SR wires a problem. The MPC wires are all over the place and with my equipment close to the wall (until we remodel the house) it is very difficult to squeeze behind the components to see what's what and try to untangle things.

I have not had Signal Cable products in my system. I will look them up.

Studiosoundman,
The kind of trial period you describe would be very helpful -- with special terms for overseas customers because of the shipping time lag. In my own business, I have an extended trial period and word of mouth keeps the return rate extremely low. I rarely get a return. I am not in the audio business, but this same thinking applies.

Your observation about companies being extremely confident in their products, many of which have not changed for ten to twenty years, hits the nail on the head. There are products out there that have stood the test of time. Some of them have taken my system to a new level -- at an aftermarket cost that is a fraction of the price of a new high-end cable -- Bybee comes to mind. And there are some products out there that are new to me that provide superior results and superior value -- HiDiamond comes to mind.

And here’s my experience with S.R. It’s not beautiful.
For years, I had been eying on S.R. cables, so after trying some of their pre-owned cables and cords, I love them. They help tuning my system up to where I wanted to be, “heaven.” All cables and cords were purchased USED at Agon and eBay with great success. I wanted to move up.

But sadly, just before I initiate to their higher products, an incident happened that totally changed my perspective about S.R. I would NEVER buy (or associate) S.R. again.

S.R. loss my interest and fate when an old set of my Alpha Sterling RCA interconnect started intermittent. I took my chance and decided to cut off one outer heat shrink knowing the warranty was then voided. (I later found from S.R that this old USED and SECOND HAND interconnect wouldn’t be covered by the company any ways.) WOW, to my shockingly surprised, the positive (+) AND negative (-) leads were NEVER BEEN SOLDERED to the connector. (Email me for pics NasaMan11006@yahooDOTcome) The solder cup was still freshly and shinny clean showing no indication of it being ever got soldered on. I went numb. I felt I was being cheated. But that wasn’t it, there’s more.

Per discuss with Michael Platt from S.R on Jan7th, I mailed it in with the remaining of the heat shrink still intact with the connector and the cable proving all authentic from S.R.

Long story short, S.R denied to take the responsibility, but wanted to charge $50 for the repair. What reason? No warranty for second hand owner. The cable been out on the market for years, God knows what others did to it….
Hello? This is a workmanship matter. Your assembler totally missed soldering the leads to the connector. This is a high-end business with cables that cost up to 10 of thousands, I thought they’d do more critical testing and verifying before shipping them out rather than just ohm out for continuity check. I was furor and didn’t know where to go. S.R was my favorite cable company…
I’m writing this not to bash S.R. but, perhaps, just to share my experience and POV. This is my first time revealing and sharing this matter with all since it happened in Jan.
For me, it was a great journey with S.R. but after this incident, I’m not buying any more S.R cables and cords which I don’t think Ted and the company really care since I’m only buying pre-owned while they aim and focus to newer market.

Below is the exchanged email between me (John) and Michael Platt from S.R.. He was straight forward, a gentleman, and professional. I never blame him but the policy and their workman ship.

---- Yahoo email, COPIED AND PASTED----
John,

Thank you very much for the compliments. We hope you will visit with us again at future RMAF events, and we appreciate your continued support.

It is very important to keep in mind that this cable cannot be serviced under warranty. We have a standard non-transferable warranty policy, which means that we do not provide warranty service for second-hand products. If the cable was not functioning when you received it from the party who sold it to you, you should contact them directly and demand a refund.

It is not likely this cable shipped from our factory in a defective state, but since this cable is at least six years old, it is not possible for us to determine exactly what happened to it. The original owner did not contact us or his dealer to report any malfunctions. Our examination revealed obvious signs of use, which leads us to believe that the cable was functioning normally for many years.

John, we will return this cable to you as requested. We will pay for the freight.

Best,

Mike

. On 1/12/12 12:54 PM, Pham, Giao John wrote:
Hi Mike,
Beside many other great cable companies, me and folks at AudioGon, AudioReview and Audio Asylum have very high regards on SR brand. In our communities, we always do respect Ted’s enthusiastic, his products, and his time endlessly dedicated to this interesting hobby and business.
If I didn’t meet him at the Rocky Mountain Audio show last year, 2010, I would probably didn’t own many other much higher price SR’s cords and cables as of today; I trusted his work and his reputation.
Today, we are discussing about a matter that was clearly involved to a workmanship standard; A SOLDER JOINT THAT WAS CLEAR MISSED by SR’s assembler. I sent the cables in so SR can review the issue and correct it accordingly.
However, I do respect your protocol. Unfortunately, DO NOT REPAIR . Please leave them as is and return the cables. Please let me know how much for the shipping fee to Texas 77054 and type of payment.
Sincerely Yours,
John

"In my system I still use SR cables -- in series with cables from HiDiamond, Bybee, Cardas, ASI Liveline and Supra LoRad (as a bridge connector with Oyaide plugs/IECs) to achieve the effects I am looking for."
This is precisely why you guys have so many problems with cables. You are simply using them to bandaid your system.
I only use MIT, have done for 30 years. Some of my cables are 25 years old, still perform to a high standard and in fact are worth more today than what I paid new.

Dover,
With all due respect, on the contrary. The cables in my system are the cardiovascular system of the system. When the series is well chosen it brings the perfect synergy. Everything falls into place in terms of the continuity and the naturalness of the sound. There is no explaining this except that the ears know this to be true. It is never a question of band-aids. I have never tried MIT cables.

John - I totally see their point. Your comment:

"This is a high-end business with cables that cost up to 10 of thousands, I thought they’d do more critical testing and verifying before shipping them out rather than just ohm out for continuity check."

You have no idea at all what was done to these cables, nor probably does Mike, who's a pretty sharp guy. His points are all totally valid and if you choose to make this a reason for not using SR cables, that's of course your right, but in this case, it seems like it is also your loss.

Nobody is perfect and the fact that both you and the prior owner(s) were happy for 6 years pretty much kills your argument. Nobody was "cheated" here - you got the performance you paid for on the secondhand market. The fact you wouldn't spend only $50. to have the cable "repaired" also speaks volumes. Sorry - I side with them.

$50.00 to repair and you cry alligator tears and have them ship it back.

Must be a fun business being a cable maker yes?

06-19-12: Fplanner2010
John - I totally see their point. Your comment:

"This is a high-end business with cables that cost up to 10 of thousands, I thought they’d do more critical testing and verifying before shipping them out rather than just ohm out for continuity check."

You have no idea at all what was done to these cables, nor probably does Mike, who's a pretty sharp guy. His points are all totally valid and if you choose to make this a reason for not using SR cables, that's of course your right, but in this case, it seems like it is also your loss.

Nobody is perfect and the fact that both you and the prior owner(s) were happy for 6 years pretty much kills your argument. Nobody was "cheated" here - you got the performance you paid for on the secondhand market. The fact you wouldn't spend only $50. to have the cable "repaired" also speaks volumes. Sorry - I side with them.
Fplanner2010 (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)

I TOTALLY agree. We are human so the BEST QC will not catch all the problems. I had a bad XLR IC connector and PC with a short that trip the circuit breaker once plug into the wall outlet. Both from different excellent manufacturers and bought new so repaired under warranty.

I can understand why most manufacturers only honer warranty for orig owner. Who knows how many prior owners and how it was used. If both + and - are NEVER soldered, how did it worked consistently for 6+ years?

IMO, it's a bargain if they're willing to fix it for $50. Nasaman, I guess you got what you paid for.

Fplanner2010, Gloria, Knghifi,
I feel you're being a bit unkind here. I don't think it would have cost much for SR to do this repair and the goodwill extended would have come back to them -- whereas now they have to deal with bad publicity that may be worth a lot more than the very small sum of $50.

You see, it does not much matter who was right about this. I can understand SR sticking to the letter of the law. But by going the extra few yards they could have had a win-win situation instead of having a lose-lose situation. A little graciousness and generosity can go a long way in the high end audio business. IMO.

There are people who have gone the extra few yards for me in audio. I appreciate it very much and I always have a good word to say about them -- even if things were not 100%. They deserve a good word. Those who have not done business with me in the same way are written up differently.

Regarding SR, they get top marks from me for customer service. But as for policies and some other matters referred to earlier, they still have some work to do. IMO.

I tend to think about these things in a manner similar to Sabai.

It's amazing to me that especially in these days of a rough economy, the internet, free information flow, etc. that more do not go out of the way a bit in the interest of good customer relations. Companies that tend to do best over the long term tend to do this kind of thing better I believe.

Sabai, You've gotta be kidding me. Nasaman buys a 6+ years old IC off Ebay with UNDOCUMENTED number of owners, history, traveled the world several times and probably the IC you used in a SERIES with your bungee cord and jump rope and you want it repair under warranty??

There's an inherent danger in purchasing used to save a few bucks. I think it's REASONABLE that SR will only charge $50 for the repair.

Like a good Democrat, hand over the freebee.

Completely agree with Mapman.

Want to demonstrate confidence in your product? Don't nickel and dime your customers. There will be ROI in spades.

For those who feel that SR should repair these old used cables for free, not to mention covering the return shipping, imagine how you would feel if you were expected to work for free. When the shoe is on the other foot your perspective changes quickly.

Send me an email to NasaMan11006@yahoo.com and allow me to reply with the pics and then let’s view it together. I just want to share it with you all, nothing more.
Yes, the cable was a 6y old, but I was the first one cutting off the S.R’s PRINTED heat shrink to shockingly discover what under neat. This could possibly happen to yours too. I doubt in 100 years that SR’s will mail out, give away, or sell their logo/ SN printed heat shrinks to any consumers.

What'd you think if this missing soldering process happens to 1 of your highly regard high-end fav cable?

In this HIGH END cable business, if the soldering step missed, it’s a VERY big thing. A VERY big mistake. If the company makes this mistake, the company fixes the mistake at any cost, period. And I gave SR that chance.

Remember, SR was my fav cable company, I wouldn't go this far just to hurt them. Not to mention this matter already happened back in Jan.,5 months ago. I’m not bashing S.R. but, as the title of this thread, “The Problem with S.R”, I share mine.

$50 did not upset me, the irresponsible did.

I can agree with nt your comment Joncourage however following the entire thread I don't think that anything any vendor would do would satisfy Sabai

Ted Denney did not get his PhD in audio cable physics to fix his masterworks for free. Time is money, and when not in the "lab", Ted needs spare time to dig up old posts written by naysayers like Sabai. If you don't like him or SR or snake oil, you must be a Democrat. (I gather that is what Knghifi and Glory are trying to say in their barely literate political commentary.)

When is Audiogon going to kill this thread? All this bad press is going to hinder SR's ability to separate fools from their money.

What I dont understand in this story is :
Why would anyone spend time and money sending an interconnect back and forth from the manufacturer to simply solder a connection. Any competent local technician could do the job in less than 2 minutes and probably would not even charge.
I am surprised that even with no warranty, that a cable manufacturer would not simply take a few minutes to fix the joint.
I also note that the author also mentions making home made cables in other threads, therefore it seems odd that he wouldn't just fix it himself.
I can only surmise that there may be more to this story than the author is saying. or the whole story is pure bunkum.

Facten,
You state "I don't think that anything any vendor would do would satisfy Sabai". This is a very broad statement, would you not agree? It opens the door to a broad response.

With all due respect, there have been many vendors that have more that satisfied me over the years. Among them are Merlin, HiDiamond, AMR, Bybee, Cardas, Oyaide and, yes, Synergistic Research. The points I am making only relate to part of my interaction with SR over the years. I have never had a single problem with their customer service. It has been exemplary in my case. And I have been very happy with quite a few of their products -- but not all. It is their trade-up policy and other related matters discussed in earlier posts that I have brought up for discussion.

Knghifi,
With all due respect, you are now addressing your comments to Joncourage and Mapman as well.

Mcondon,
You stated "When is Audiogon going to kill this thread? All this bad press is going to hinder SR's ability to separate fools from their money."

I think this thread has brought out a number of salient points -- and it sounds like some others agree. I think this can only be good for SR because they are a great company with some great products. IMO they need some encouragement to develop more user-friendly policies. This lively discussion may stimulate some movement in that direction.

This is the longest "have pity on me, I can't afford your product" post I've ever seen.

Onhwy61,
With all due respect, I believe you have misunderstood. This thread is about getting the best possible value for your audio dollar. I feel many high end audio companies are in the process of pricing themselves out of the ballpark for audiophiles who are in the "modest budget" category -- people like me who are not high rollers. This thread was initiated to stimulate discussion about the ramifications of various issues around this central issue. It was not initiated to elicit pity. You may be one of the very fortunate who does not have to worry about budget concerns when purchasing their equipment.

I feel sorry for myself sometimes that I can't always get what I want, then I throw the switch and end up being thankful for what I have (usually).

It happens often when I watch "House Hunters" on HGTV and realize I probably cannot afford that gorgeous beachfront property in the Caribbean. Maybe my 10 year old daughter who is that shows biggest fan will be able to someday....

I've read this post's development with a bit of bafflement. Sabai, I get your desire for the best trade-in, price structure, customer service, etc. We all want that for every product we buy, don't we? However, in the end, every business owner has to to balance his customer's wish lists against market realities and the need to make a decent profit. If they get the balance right, the customers stay happy and the business thrives. If not, the competitive nature of the market place will weed out those guilty of constant miscalculation. I think Sabai has more than amply made his points of contention clear and if sufficient numbers of other customers feel the same way, Mr. Denney would need adjust his business practices. If sufficient numbers remain happy with SR products and pricing, Sabai's just going to have to buck up and accept he's been left behind.

Photon46,
You put this very succinctly in your post.

This thread would make a good reality TV show...or Jerry Springer

Pops,
You mean it's that good?

Regarding SR's trade-up policy, it is clearly a good deal for those who have the cash and who want to purchase more than one new SR product. But it puts those on a modest budget in a bind.

Firstly, when SR brings out a new product to replace a current product the latter has already depreciated in value by a significant amount due to the new product being introduced. OK, this is normal. But then SR requires you to purchase a product twice the value of the one you want to trade-up for.

So, for instance, if you want to purchase the latest version of the PowerCell, you have to purchase $10,000 in SR products to take advantage of the SR trade-up program. Well, that's a lot of money for many of us. And what if the PowerCell is the only product you wish to purchase? You are left with having to sell your PowerCell off on the glutted aftermarket where the price of PowerCells has dropped drastically.

You are lucky to get much more than $2000 for a used PowerCell these days on Audiogon. But you are better off in the end because if you do get $2500 for your PowerCell you have to come up with $2500 for the new PowerCell instead of $6500 with SR. In the end, unless you are really hot on a new SR product besides the PowerCell, you are much better off not going the trade-up route. It is no gift to customers of modest means.

SR might want to consider two options to make their policy user friendly to audiophiles of modest means. They could introduce an upgrade policy for some of their products such as the PowerCell. They could formulate a policy that does not require the purchase of a product that is fully double the price of the new product a customer wishes to purchase.

In the end, a more "understanding" policy would end up being be a win-win situation. It would not be as profitable for SR but it would come back to them in volume to make up for the lower mark-up. Most importantly, it would sow the seeds of goodwill. This act of generosity would be appreciated by many audiophiles and would end up bringing many happy customers to SR that they would not otherwise have seen. And, over time, the results would naturally be compounded.

These suggestions are meant to be helpful.

Sabai.... It is now getting very boring indeed. You sound like a persistent parrot. I'm sure everyone here gets your message regarding SR's policy. Move on if you don't like what they do.

Lock,

Your thoughts on Sabby moving on only fires him up to continue on with his writings. He will not drop his ways.

Flashunlock,
Please note that I initiated this thread and the topic is The Problem with Synergistic Research -- but not exclusive to SR. Also, please note that not everyone who has posted on this thread may agree with you -- according to how they have responded here. You have the perfect right to your opinions.

This is not an urban pedestrian sidewalk where a disturbance has been caused and where the local constabulary comes by to bring order to the scene. I am merely a poster on Audiogon eliciting ideas. With all due respect, those who find this thread disturbing may easily avoid reading the posts here -- and they can easily move on to threads that do not disturb them.

Sabai

True as it may seem but you are a very busy man here on the Audiogon forum. If you read back on this thread I have also posted that I agree with you in some ways but come on..... this has been long and your opinion/points has been put acrossed. IMO, SR will not change their policies just because you are moaning and that is exactly what you are doing. My recommendation is to listen to more music and less time spent hitting the keys. Enjoy what you have that were great upgrades yesterday and if you feel the need to do so again then buy carefully in your case. I too have purchased many Hi-Fi equipment/ cables/ tweaks blind because I'm also across the world and if I get it wrong then I'll sell them and if I have bought them too expensive then thats life and bad luck. If one moans for every bad judgement that they make or come across your situation, one should just give it all up because you know what, sometimes all of these are learning curves and in a way makes it fun.

Ted has welcomed you to contact him to resolve any issues so why not take up his offer instead of constantly posting here which ultimately will not do you or Ted any favours IMO.

Flashunlock,
What you characterize as moaning is a thread that was initiated to elicit ideas and opinions. And it has done just that. I am certainly not the only person who feels as I do.You may note that there are others besides me who have expressed themselves in this thread in a manner that is contrary to your opinions. Nevertheless, you have the perfect right to hold and express your opinions -- as everyone does.

I would not presume to tell you that others are tired of listening to you and that you should shove off. We may not always like what we read here. That's the way life is on the forums. No one is forced to read threads and opinions they do not want to read. If we all conformed to certain ideas this would be a very boring place to visit.

I don't believe we need to walk on egg shells worrying about SR or other manufacturers when we express our opinions in these threads. Ted Denney and others are very capable of defending themselves and of rebutting statements that they feel are inaccurate. Many manufacturers take the opportunity to do so here. As it should be.

Neither you nor I know what affect this may actually have on SR or other companies. If it gets them thinking about these matters, that is a step in the right direction, IMO.

Gloria,
"Dropping ways". Very well put.

Glory

You spoke too soon :)

Sabai: You carry on and every where else on this forum.

Flashunlock.
Thank you.

Sabby was put in his place by Ted and still continues to write about his problems in life. Ted nailed him with his own words and once again Shabby shows his hypocrisy and contradictions in his writings here in the Forums.

With Ted's thoughts here even I had to take notice of my own ass filled writings that criticized his company and pull back.

Gloria,
You have the right to your opinions about Ted's submissions. Everyone has the right to interpret them as he or she wishes. Ted expressed things in a positive light for SR -- which is understandable. And I expressed my opinions. Please note that others have chimed in -- on both sides.

Glorious, there seems to be an underlying tone here. I believe this is quite clear. Let each reader judge for himself and herself what is going on here.

We have seen time and again where posters complain that threads have deteriorated. I do not believe they deteriorate because of the difference of opinions being expressed. After all, that's what the forums are for. I believe that threads deteriorate because of lack of respect and the various ways this manifests itself in the language posters use.

You can see this pattern emerging when the issues are no longer the focus of the discussion. When posters start to personalize their comments then respect is lost. "Linguistic indulgences" then begin to emerge and a trend develops where juvenile responses begin to dominate the discussion. Thus, the issues become subsumed and posters who would otherwise be contributing to the threads back off. Understandably.

Sabai, no they deteriorate once the various thought have been made, once.

Tbg,
Reiteration of points cannot be the cause of deterioration, IMO. People may want to skip what is being reiterated -- but that's about it. Deterioration comes from a decline in the tone. If people are not respectful then the tone destroys meaningful discussion. This can be seen in the personalizing of comments instead of the thread remaining focused on topics and issues.

Sabby,

You beat the dead pig for months. When someone calls this to your attention you write something like your last post.

Sabai, sorry you are just boring.

Could be worse.

Glory.... You're right and make me laugh... LOL

Gloria and Flashunlock,
Who's forcing you to read my posts? If they hurt your eyes you can move on before any damage is caused. Just scan down for my name before reading. I would not want to have on my conscience any ocular problems caused by reading my posts.

Sabai, there is nothing to keep you from stopping this nonsense.

Tbg,
What nonsense?

07-16-12: Sabai
Tbg,
What nonsense?

Sabai, when you you become a comedian?.

:)

Flashunlock,
Glad you appreciate my humor.

I will add my two cents:

I use the synergistic phono cables on both tables I own and had tried others head to head.

Nonetheless I was skeptical about the tesla powercell but
It has made my system sound better without any drawbacks
that I hear. I disliked the PS Audio power regenerator and so was skeptical to try the powercell.

I will add my two cents:

I use the synergistic phono cables on both tables I own and had tried others head to head.

Nonetheless I was skeptical about the tesla powercell but
It has made my system sound better without any drawbacks
that I hear. I disliked the PS Audio power regenerator and so was skeptical to try the powercell.