The problem is one that a number of cable makers suffer from. I preface my remarks by noting this not a problem that is exclusive to Synergistic Research. I use SR as an example because I am more familiar with their cables than with the cables of other companies that have the same problem.
The problem is the cost of incremental improvements. SR makes some great products. But, in spite of their copy writing, not all SR products are great, IMO. Some SR products have made great improvements in my system -- like the Tesla SE Hologram D power cord. That having been said, in retrospect, despite the bally-hoo that surrounds SR product launches, most of their products have brought no more than incremental improvements to my system. Products from other cable companies have brought equal or greater improvements for me -- often at much lower cost.
The problem is that SR has such fast-paced marketing with products coming out at a gallop supplanting recently released products -- such as the SR line of PowerCell conditioners -- that I sometimes feel I have been left in the dust.
We cannot stop the relentless march of technology. But at the high price of most of SR's offerings one is often left with sense of being left out instead of left in when new products come on the heels of products one has just purchased. The SR trade-up program does not remedy this problem at all, IMO.
There are many other cable companies without fast-paced marketing that provide equal or better value for the money, IMO. Companies like Bybee, HiDiamond and Cardas. I am probably not the only one who feels as I do about SR and other companies with fast-paced marketing.
My system has further evolved since my earlier posts. I have recently added a Bybee Stealth, an isolation transformer and a power regenerator -- all up front.
While the SR Powercell sounded good on its own when I purchased it two years ago things have changed dramatically. I have been running it in series with a Bybee Stealth that I purchased recently. When I took the Powercell out of my system a couple of days ago it was immediately clear: the sound stage opened wide, so much more low level detail was coming through and the harmonics bloomed as I had never heard them before. Taking the Powercell out was like a breath of fresh air for my system -- and more. There is no question in my mind and ears that the Bybee Stealth is the superior power conditioner for my system. I will be selling off the Powercell.
Sabai, Why would you try power conditioner in series? That is like saying that a drug you use is working so you should take twice as much. I have three conditioners I am considering presently. None are those you are considering. Each has to be done and compared, although this makes for a long term A/B comparison, given that you have to change all the wires into each and then await their recovery from being unplugged and for the components to warm up. Also each needs to be compared with just plugging into the wall. As I have 11 things to plug in, this is a cumbersome assessment.
Sabai, Why would you try power conditioner in series? That is like saying that a drug you use is working so you should take twice as much. I have three conditioners I am considering presently. None are those you are considering. Each has to be done and compared, although this makes for a long term A/B comparison, given that you have to change all the wires into each and then await their recovery from being unplugged and for the components to warm up. Also each needs to be compared with just plugging into the wall. As I have 11 things to plug in, this is a cumbersome assessment.
I have been following this thread with great interest. It is another issue facing the high end audio community. I have switched to the Von Schweikert Master Built cabling and it is on an entirely different level and more musical sounding than anything I have used before including the SR stuff with all of the $400 MPC's (one for each cable). I am not putting SR down and I think Ted is a good and brilliant guy.
If "any" audio company is going to introduce frequent upgrades they should provide their customers affordable upgrades path/options. Without judging motives here they can devalue their customers investments. We are talking about real money here and not chump change. Not to mention audiophiles go into deep depression and start to have panic attacks if they think they don't have the best and latest model:)
Tbg, I also need to do a lot of testing. I have been using the two power conditioners in series because I bought the Bybee Stealth on the hunch that it would best the SR (and it has, since I took the SR out of the system and can listen to it alone.) I didn't want to sell off my Powercell because I hate taking haircuts. And I figured that the sound would be good if I ran the two conditioners in series with my isolation transformer and power regenerator. Everything sounded pretty good. But since I have a maze of wires -- you can imagine with all cables in series -- it is really hard for me to squeeze between the wall and the cables to fiddle around.
I honestly didn't hear any need to get rid of the Powercell -- you know how you get used to your "house sound" -- until I added the SR speaker cells and they killed the sound completely. Then I figured it would be worth the effort to squeeze my belly back there and yank out the Powercell. BINGO !! Everything opened up -- low level detail, sound stage, harmonics. You name it. The Powercell is history.
Thankful, You stated, "If "any" audio company is going to introduce frequent upgrades they should provide their customers affordable upgrades path/options. Without judging motives here they can devalue their customers investments." This is the very point I have been making on other threads. The trade-up policy of SR is punitive. Devaluation of the SR investment hurts a lot. What they have done with their new Element line is to render unsellable all your expensive Tesla cables they used to ballyhoo.
If their retail prices were not so darn prohibitive or they offered an upgrade or a better trade-up policy this would not hurt so much and they would have a better chance to hold onto loyal customers. But the way things are, people are eager to run for the door when a company like HiDiamond comes on the scene with superior products at very reasonable prices.
Sabai, Why would you try power conditioner in series?
Sabai also likes to use 3 different interconnect cables, interspersed with Bybees, and 3 different power cables connected with IEC burn-in adapters, and I think he also has different loudspeaker cables connected in series (sorry if I have misinterpreted something, Sabai).
It's an unusual approach, one that seems to fly in the face of conventional thinking. But he appears to be happy with his approach, and his posts have been interesting, if a little didactic.
One thing for sure is that Synergistic Research will continue to change their design. With the cost of their products being so high, they can afford to search for the ultimate Holy Grail. Good for them.
But I too have chosen to get off the ride. This is because the old Synergistic Research products lose their value tremendously once the new products are released and the fact that Synergistic Research does NOT have any realistic upgrade path.
My Pass Labs Amplifier always sounded better on a separate dedicated outlet than being plugged into the Synergistic Powercell. That is, with the Amp plugged into the SR Powercell, it provided a darker background, but it also seemed to suck the life out of the music.
So, after reviewing your post, perhaps I should pull my SR Powercell out of my 2 channel completely and use it for my Home theater equipment.
I have always had some type of power conditioning with my front end equipment and now I wonder how a power regenerator would perform.
One thing for sure is that Synergistic Research will continue to change their design. With the cost of their products being so high, they can afford to search for the ultimate Holy Grail. Good for them.
But I too have chosen to get off the ride. This is because the old Synergistic Research products lose their value tremendously once the new products are released and the fact that Synergistic Research does NOT have any realistic upgrade path.
My Pass Labs Amplifier always sounded better on a separate dedicated outlet than being plugged into the Synergistic Powercell. That is, with the Amp plugged into the SR Powercell, it provided a darker background, but it also seemed to suck the life out of the music.
So, after reviewing your post, perhaps I should pull my SR Powercell out of my 2 channel completely and use it for my Home theater equipment.
I have always had some type of power conditioning with my front end equipment and now I wonder how a power regenerator would perform.
I am looking to do business with companies that provide long term value and a components/cabling that are made with quality and importantly that are musical. I have been beating the Von Schweikert Master Built cabling drum because I finally found cabling that allows the music flow beautifully. They are not hyped and mass marketed, on the contrary you have to look hard to find anything about them. Audiophiles need to support companies like this that do right by their customers. Without naming companies I have seen to much exorbitant pricing and mass marketing all of which we the consumer pays for. Research and technology must continue that is how we get better products but take care of your customers. How are we going to get the younger generations into high end audio with this crap going on???
Ozzy, You stated, referring to getting off the SR ride, "This is because the old Synergistic Research products lose their value tremendously once the new products are released and the fact that Synergistic Research does NOT have any realistic upgrade path." You hit the old nail on the head here. I imagine a lot of older SR cables go unsold each time SR leapfrog's itself. I have been left in the dust more than once with SR products.
Regarding pulling the SR Powercell from your system, I also found that the SR Powercell "sucked the life" out of my music. I would highly recommend putting a high quality medical grade isolation transformer up front. I picked up a honey of a tranny on Ebay (made in Germany with dual voltage -- good for me since I am on 230 volts) for only a few hundred dollars -- mint. I have a Bybee Stealth power conditioner plugged into the tranny and a Monarchy power regenerator plugged into the Bybee. The Monarchy is the best bang for your regenerator buck anywhere. It is rated at 100 watts. I have my transport and DAC plugged into it -- stunning.
I am the younger generation into high end audio. There is no problem with Synergistic Research. Synergistic Research won 2 Best in Show at RMAF with a small down to Earth system. That alone says to me Synergistic Research knows what they are doing and their products are top notch. Yes, their products are expensive. In my system, I enjoy their products very much. Im not going to bash a company because they come out with new products every so often. I prefer a company that continues to do research and comes out with new concepts and technology. They sure are consistent to produce products that are innovative and interesting and seem to not hold back on their constant pursuit to come out with new and improved gear. IMO, that company sounds like a winner to me.
We all have our valued opinions. I like reading everyones take on the subject. I formed my opinions by trying all the Synergistic Research products I purchased before I buy them in my home and in my system and comparing them to other manufacturers.
Sabai, I dont agree with your comments about the Powercell 10 SE. This is what I was able to conclude when I removed the Powercell from my system. The Powercell is only as transparent as the power cord that it is plugged into. In this case the new Element Copper/Tungsten Power Cord is far more transparent then the Precision Reference AC cord it replaces. Nothing more, nothing less. The Powercell in my system does not hold anything back. I got my powerful Audio Research Dsi200 integrated amp plugged into it. The DSi200 delivers 200 WPC continuously into an 8-ohm load and 400 WPC 4-ohm load. And I don't have any problems.
Joeyboynj, You stated, "The Powercell is only as transparent as the power cord that it is plugged into." This may be true. But if so, what explanation is there that an $1,800 power cord -- the Precision Reference -- is not transparent enough and cannot do the job properly? Why would SR market and ballyhoo this power cord with the Powercell if it were not up to the job? This confuses me. When it came out the Precision Reference was a tiger -- and then suddenly it becomes a pussy cat? Will the Element series -- now as ballyhooed as the Tesla line originally was -- become transformed in a similar fashion into a shadow of its former self with the advent of a newer line?
I just realized today that there is no power conditioning or surge protection whatsoever in the SR Powercell that my entire system is plugged into. That was a bit unnerving considering the investment I have made into my system. As a result, I will be trying PS audio's p-10 on 1 of my home amplifiers this weekend. It is currently in my office system.
It is a regenerator as well as surge protector, etc. I've heard both that it limits dynamics and that it improves dynamics. I'm not an engineer, but when I see it can hold 70 amps in storage ready for instant usage, that seems better than just 15-20 amps out of the wall. I could be wrong - this weekend should tell.
If the p-10 works, I will get 2 with 1 for each amp. The amps draw 450w each, with peaks to 900w. Each p-10 will do 1250w w/peaks to 1500w, so there is enough room to plug in all my components and TV within the 20 outlets. Undecided whether to keep the Powercell - if the p-10s work as I think they will, the Powercell will belong to somebody else in the near future. If not, Plan B.
I believe VAC 450 Statement has built power conditioner so should plug direct into wall outlet. If plug into Powercell, you are choking/limiting performance of the amps.
Also once your HD Power 3s are broken in, try it on your VAC system. It's FANTASTIC on my Sig MKIIa.
I ONLY use my PCs in an audio system so my ONLY concern is SOUND. Frankly I'm never interested in company marketing hype, type of conductor, connectors ... like some Agon members.
Just a suggestion. Instead of paying all that extra money why not just put in a whole house surge protection at your breaker box. There are a few out there that are highly regarded. You can put it for just the line to your equipment or the whole house. Check out the following.
http://ep2000.com/index.php?page=industrial The EP-2050 is the one.
http://www.surgex.com/residential.html The XN120 about half way down the page. If you look under Pro and Consumer there are more.
The EP-2050 is the easiest and most cost effective. It would set you back,the last time I checked, about $700-1000 installed by an election. Otherwise about half that for DIY. The high end also includes any additional parts you might need. It is also the least intrusive.
I asked Kevin Hayes whether there was any power conditioning in the 450's and he said there was not. Thanks for the VAC pre suggestion - I'll probably have to try that.
Al- Thanks for the suggestions. I've recently heard that from Elliot at Synergistic as well. Not sure that meets what I am trying to do. I like the combination of surge protection and power regeneration, providing that doesn't limit dynamics. My thought is 2 p-10s. The P-10 supposedly stores up to 70 amps in reserve, so it would seem that it would handle amp dynamics much better than just plugged straight into the wall at 15-18 amps from my 20 amp lines. I'm not an engineer, but it seems like common sense. I'll have a better idea after this weekend.
Fplanner2000, I just purchased a couple of the Audience AR2P-TO units for my dedicated lines. These units have both surge protection and provide excellent power conditioning.
Fplanner2000, both Dev and Ozy plug their 450's direct into wall outlets. Dev has 2 big Torus for his Bryston 28BSST2 but found choking the 450's. You can contact him for more info.
I had a PPP and found it limit dynamics with my old tube mono amps. Just plugging one amp, PPP would heat up and fan screaming. Hope P-10 is better ... not a fan of PS Audio except for the PWD.
The best active conditioner I used is EquiTech 2Q. They also make wall panels that might work for you so check it out. I was considering a wall panel but liking my Weizhi PRS-6s too much.
Thanks Knghifi. Dev will be trying a Burmester piece and will report his results. I am hoping the extensive upgrades made to the P-10 by PS Audio are sufficient to do what I want without noticeably limiting dynamics. If it works, I will use 1 for each amp. One works fine in my office system, which has minimal current requirements, so we'll see. I'm cautiously optimistic.
The P-10 from PS Audio ACTUALLY WORKED GREAT on 1 VAC 450amp in our testing today.
No dynamic limitations whatsoever - as a matter of fact the sound from the connected speaker sounded both more detailed and musical than the other amp/speaker!! All the other components remained plugged into my Synergistic Powercell.
We also discovered 123.7 amps were being fed to the rest of the system while we were listening. That is exactly why I like the P-10 - I want a steady 120 going to my components, not 115 or 125; plus the surge protection, etc..
I will be ordering a pair of these Monday. The search is over. Tomorrow will try to ascertain how "feeding cable sensitive" the P-10 is. Stay tuned.
I'm very interested in what you find out because, I had a PS Audio PPP but an in-home audition proved to me the Synergistic Research Powercell 10 SE was leaps better all around. I think we both had similar auditions a few years back and thats why you bought the Powercell. I would recommend that you would try and put your Powercell 10 SE before the P-10s and plug the P-10s into your current version of the Powercell 10 SE? I believe Bacardi tried this with his PPP but ended up selling his PPP like I did and just kept the Powercell 10 SE.
Another idea, instead of spending the money for two P-10's. Get a home audition on the NEW Powercell 10 SE Mk.III with the new Element series Copper/Tungsten 32-amp Power Cord. Keep the best sound in your system, which will be either be just the P-10s or the new Powercell 10 SE Mk.III with upgraded Element Power Cord.
Joey- I think you may be missing my goals here. The Powercell does NOT protect my system AT ALL, per Elliot at Synergistic. Nor yours, nor anyone else's. I am after protection of my system investment, which I had erroneously thought the Powercell did.
The new P-10 has several orders of magnitude more capacity than their old product, with the additional benefit of keeping the input to my components at a steady 120v. I auditioned it in my system this weekend and found it to be exactly what I was looking for. No dynamics limitation, no negative effects whatsoever. I have 2 on their way to me for my home system - putting the other backinto my office system this morning.
Apparently my post of this morning got trashed/misplaced. Joey- I believe you are misunderstanding my issue. I want to PROTECT MY SYSTEM. The Synergistic Powercells do not protect mine, yours or anyone else's system, per Elliot at Synergistic a few days ago. I don't even think they surge protect.
The new PS Audio P-10 has many times the capacity of their old products - 1 on each amp will work fine for me, as I discovered this weekend. No limitations, quieter noise floor and a steady, clean 120v - that's what I am looking for, as well as good protection. Kills several birds with 1 stone, and exactly what I was looking for. I ordered 2 yesterday.
I can't address their prior gear, but I can the current P-10 and my system had absolutely no problem at any volumes - musicality in fact was even better through the p-10 than the Powercell, since some edginess I hadn't noticed before was gone in the P-10 speaker, but of course that's subjective
Patented? I would like to know the patent number. I have been looking on a patent web site and haven't been able to find it.
In addition, what I (and many others) would like is to have the company provide measurements of a system with and without the technology in question, or in the case of a room treatment product, the before and after room measurements, so we can see for ourselves before we go through the purchase/evaluation process. I don't have any SR dealers within a short distance of me and I would prefer to first understand the technology, look at actual measurements and then if I'm interested, do an evaluation and THEN make the purchase. I do this on products (technology) I'm not comfortable with once they exceed a certain price point.
Case in point, before I started heavily investing in certain cables, I had to talk to various engineers, read technical papers that had measurements that explained how a cable sounds better and then I evaluated them without paying for the product first, and THEN i started buying what I felt most comfortable with. But when a company puts out new technology that's not really common, I tend to see Red Flags, so that's why I'm asking to see the patents and to see before and after measurements. I don't trust someone else's ears unless I know they are a straight shooter and I don't have anyone that's written a review on the product.
Fplanner2000, I have to 100% disagree with you. I prefer the sound of no surge protectors in my systems and NO power switch in the system. In my 30 years in audio I always thought surge protectors added nasty attributes to the sounds and I'm right after having the Powercell 10 SE Mk.III in my system for a few years. I will NEVER go back to surge protectors. The best way to prevent damage is to is dis-connect the entire system from the wall. I NEVER had a problem. ;-) Its not a multi-award winner each year for nothing, it does what it says on the website. Thank for your input and thoughts. Much appreciated!!! :-)
J- I stand by everything I said above. You have not tried what I have, but I have tried what you have. I don't have the need for any tone controls in my system - they went away when I de-Synergized. In other words, I can now hear what my components are really doing. There is no protection in the Powercells. That was unacceptable to me.
I now have a much lower noise floor and very good protection. My system doesn't lend itself to being 'unplugged" to prevent surge damage - what you're missing is that you might not have any idea a surge is coming - then where are you? I don't have to worry about this, but you still do. That's the point.
F, YES, I did try what you have in your system. I have had tried all of PS Audio passive and active PS Audio power regenerators in my system over the years, old (PPP) or new (P3). I know, I have way too much time on my hands. LOL!!! I even had a beautiful PS Audio Power Plant Premier in my system for 2 years before I decided to try a Powercell 10 SE Mk.1. I really enjoyed the effortless power and no additives of the active circuits in my system. Therefore, in MY system, I upgraded to the PowerCell 10 SE Mk.3 works perfect for me. Have you tried the newer/latest Mk. 3 version of the PowerCell 10 SE??? It blows away the two earlier Mk. 1 and Mk.2 versions and is much better than the PS Audio P3, P5 and P10. We both tried VERY similar if not exact equipment and made different decisions based on our own personal preferences. This is what this hobby is all about in a sense. I can only make suggestions and save someone some time. I tell people when asked you must try both types and make the best decision for your ears and for your very own system. That's exactly what I did and I love my choices. I only make decisions unless I'm over 100% sure this is the direction I want to go and I always make sure there is at lease a 30 day or more money back guarantee just in case. Cause you know us Audiophiles and changing our minds. LOL! Go to The Cable Company and borrow some demo units and make your own decision. The PoweCell has many many awards. So my opinion is also backed up by professionals in the business. Not too sure about the PS Audio stuff.
Good Luck and Have Fun as I ALWAYS do in my hobby. ;-)
Joeyboynj, I agree with you about surge protection. I had it once and was amazed at the sound once it was removed. All of my equipment draws on two dedicated lines, whose wall plugs are withdrawn from the outlets in storms.
Joeyboynj, I agree with you on PS Audio Passive and Power re-generators. I would never use them for any current hungry components. With low current, there are much much superior alternatives.
Probably the only active I would use is an EquiTech wall unit.
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