The Jico SAS/B Stylus VN 5 MR

@ledoux1238 Yes, they make, I think it was 4 different cantilevers based on "special" Japanese woods. This is a cultural thing with the Japanese. I am heavy into Japanese woodworking tools. The best plane irons are given names like "Eagle Spirit" engraved into the tool by the maker. Irons like these can go for thousands of dollars depending on the reputation of the maker. Every material used has special connotations. You are not just listening to a cartridge, but to special wood painstakingly manufactured by a little old man sitting at a coal fire. Koetsu did the same thing putting the same cartridge motors in different bodies ascribing a certain spirit to each one. IMHO all they did was give the cartridges different effective masses, but what do I know. I have another V15 VMR body. Maybe I'll try one. If you go here https://imgur.com/gallery/stylus-photomicrographs-51n5VF9 you can see pictures of several styluses including the JICO SAS stylus. You can easily see the it is full of contamination which softens the diamond. The very tip is well shaped and polished, but otherwise it can not match the quality of the other styluses. For $300 it remains a great value even if it has 1/2 the lifespan. 

In the meanwhile I have ordered all the parts to construct any of the loading schemes mentioned in this thread. I won't be commenting for at least a month probably 2 

I have a Jico with a Ruby cantilever on a V15 V xMr, it’s one of my favorite sounding cartridges.  My best cartridge is a Soundsmith Paua II, which I do love, but I keep putting the Shure back on, and Soundsmith rebuilt a Technics MC310 for me and I have the original adapter to use with an SL turntable, that’s a cool sounding cartidge as well, but I still keep putting on the Shure/Jico.

Michael Fremer wrote about a special series of styli with wooden cantilever for the Shure v15 from JICO and he was blown away.
 

https://trackingangle.com/equipment/got-a-shure-v15v-type-vxmr-lying-around-with-no-stylus

Yes Richard they were, but they also did not do a direct comparison with my other cartridges and my system is also very commanding from a visual perspective. It did not take me long to make the realization that the Shure was not up to the other cartridges performance. But I am not giving up yet. I will try Lew's suggestion.

@mijostyn You postulated "So, far two friends have been pleasantly surprised by the V15. Was Shure on to something?"

Shure were!  The killer combo in the 1970s was an SME 3009 or 3012 tonearm with a Shure V15 cartridge.  SME sold almost half a million of those tonearms.

I have a JICO stylus on my M97xe. Fantastic cartridge for what I paid for it, but there was a slight peak in the mid-range somewhere that irritated me. I added a wood body from stanley-engineering.de and it significantly improved the tone and clarity of the cartridge. I absolutely love it now. 

To my eyes, the MSL and Lyra are frighteningly sharp, the Ortofon Asymetrical offends my sense of balance, the Soundsmith and Sonic Lab give me most confidence, and at it's price, as you say, the contact portion of the Jico seems to be the best value while it is filthy inside.

I'd like to see photos of my Talisman S and AT33PTG/II for comparison.

The very idea of perfection in all dimensions, cut, polish, mount perfectly seems unachievable when you see these variations.

I can only trust they got it right, do my best job aligning, and listen.

 

I see 

@elliottbnewcombjr Do you believe your eyes? Compare the pictures. As I said, the diamond is full of contamination, one edge is obviously pitted. The contact patches are well cut and polished and the stylus is perfectly oriented. But a diamond that contaminated is obviously going to be softer. Just looking at the Soundsmith stylus, another microridge, which do you think is going to last longer? However, the Jico is a $285 item VS all those others that are in $10K plus cartridges. You get what you pay for and in this case it is a very serviceable stylus, it just won't last as long. I'll buy another to hold is reserve. what is really going to be fun is comparing the V15 to my other cartridges when my moving coil phono stage returns. It has a little gremlin the factory took care of. 

Trying to predict a styluses life span is a fool's errand.  There are way to many variables involved to be able to predict this, VTF, AS, Cleanliness, diamond purity, polish, contact patch area plus whatever I am missing. There are things you can say about it like, lower VTFs will prolong life, clean records will prolong life and so forth. 

mijostyn OP

"The Jico diamond is not near the highest quality. It is full of contamination (so bad it won’t pass light) which will increase the rate of wear."

I'm not defending Jico, but I am assuming their claims are essentially true.

Jico specs came with the Stylus: ..they say

"natural octahedral single-crystal diamond"

and theirs specifically "should last for approximately 500 playing hours (2-3 times as long as a standard diamond stylus)." **** note: they left out the word ’shape’, or ’elliptical’ ****** which they rate as 250 hours, they rate spherical/conical at 150 hours. They are comparing diamond shape, not diamond quality.

It’s only the tracing edge that matters correct? Are you saying a higher quality diamond’s edge will last a LOT longer, i.e. cost/life value?

Has any maker published higher quality/longer life documentation (not claims, proof of some sort)?

 

search ’headshell weight’, options exist to make the headshell end heavier, thus use ’too large’ counterweight

another solution, if your’s is removable, it to use a heavier headshell with a lighter cartridge

some headshells have adjustable azimuth, and open sides for access

@mwh777 The V15 V MR with a Jico SAS/B stylus will work in either arm, I think the PU 7 is better. If the resonance frequency is too low you can use the Damper, but you have to add another 0.5 gm to the VTF. The problem is going to be the size of the counterweight. The V15 is very light and for many arms requires a lighter counterbalance weight. 

I have a question for everyone on this thread. All of you are far more knowledgeable than me about this subject. I have a V15 type V cart that is not in use at the moment. It has an Ed Saunders stylus. I think that those styli were sort of an "economy" product, not sure though. I have been wondering if I should invest in a new "good" stylus, such as the Jico, for the V15. The thing that has me on the fence is the very high compliance rating of the original form of the V15 and how that relates to using it on relatively modern tonearms. I have a Linn Ittok and an Audio Origami PU7. Does the V15 need to be on a low mass arm or am I overinflating the issue?

@elliottbnewcombjr The Jico diamond is not near the highest quality. It is full of contamination (so bad it won't pass light) which will increase the rate of wear. This might undo any benefit of lower VTF and larger contact patches. If you look at the pictures you will note that the cleanest diamonds are those used by MSL, Lyra and Soundsmith. The MC Diamond is disappointing in this regard. The Jico is at least inexpensive. Most cartridges under $1000 have styluses like the Jico, but many of them are not cut and polished near as cleanly. Where it really counts the Jico has it. I will keep a closer eye on it for wear. 

lewm

"Typically companies give a single data point for separation at 1kHz, where for most cartridges separation is maximal.  ... Anyway, that single data point is almost meaningless."

Quite meaningful when revealing what amount of maximum separation is achieved, or NON-ACHIEVED is how I use the numbers

the TIGHT channel balance is very important regarding imaging, lack of wander, and the overtones of the fundamentals are important.

Excerpt below from this

"Important frequencies

The important frequencies in non-tonal (Western) languages are illustrated by the diagram below. Here, the frequency band around 2 kHz is the most important frequency range regarding perceived intelligibility. Most consonants are found in this frequency band."


(Ref: N.R. French & J.C. Steinberg: Factors governing the intelligibility of speech sounds. JASA vol. 19, No 1, 1947).

 

 

If you’re selecting cartridges to any degree based on “channel separation” , you ought to take into account the frequency dependency of that spec. Typically companies give a single data point for separation at 1kHz, where for most cartridges separation is maximal. But our sense of the stereo image derives from the average of all frequencies where the higher frequencies dominate and bass frequencies are much less directional. Companies like Shure used to provide curves showing stereo separation at all audio frequencies for each sample of one of their cartridges. Then too, azimuth can mess things up with crosstalk. Anyway, that single data point is almost meaningless.

V15Vx bodies are hard to find, V15V bodies a bit easier, upgrading a M97xe body is an option, get an advanced stylus shape on Shure’s optional use anti-static damped brush.

Jico makes a replacement stylus for Shure’s M97xe body, SAS on Boron with brush, just like the one for the V15Vxmr body mentioned here. It’s very close to the V15Vxmr performance and sound for less total money (body and stylus combined).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/326258191889?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5338381866&toolid=10001&customid=2a9e2962-6c5d-11ef-914c-326235333437

The question/difference is Shure’s anti-static/damped brush and what Jico’s brush is/does regarding anti-static (they wrote me in 2020 not anti-static), and damping, (they wrote me unlike dynamic stabilizer).

My rebuild of broken 97xe shure stylus by Steve at VAS keeping Shure’s brush, luckily fits both my M97xe and V15Vxmr bodies.

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Imaging, Lighter Tracking

Sound is subjective, imaging specs are measurable, I only consider cartridges with high imaging specs, then sound preferred? (I think preferred, not better)

Differing magnet materials/designs: the achieved output is measurable/comparable, keep an eye on signal strength, the relationship of coil impedance, and, for some arms, keep an eye on cartridge weight,

light tracking performance combined with larger contact area relates to both groove tracing fidelity, groove life, and stylus life, the tracking force is applied to a much larger surface area when using an advanced stylus shape, and the advanced shapes get deeper into the grooves of used LPs, which need to be properly/vigorously cleaned

JICO contact surface specs, um2 (squared) whatever that is, are revealing by % comparison, indicate their S.A.S. is different than what AT says are all variations of Shibata’s patented shape: Shibata/Line Contact/Micro Linear

elliptical: 20.6 um2

Line Contact 46.7 um2 (more than twice the contact area of elliptical

S.A.S. 62.1 um2 (more than 3 times elliptical/50% more than Line Contact.

Soundsmith’s Stylus Life Expectancy chart is based on info from JICO, and the S.A.S. has the longest average life expectancy in the chart

Soundsmith Stylus Shape Info

Wear, Tear and Life

So we know that the more extreme line contacts reduce wear.... but what is the difference?

Apparently according to Jico (manufacturer of the highly regarded SAS stylus), the amount of playing time where a stylus will maintain its specified level of distortion at 15kHz is as follows:

• Spherical / Conical - 150hrs
• Elliptical - 250hrs
• Shibata/Line contact - 400hrs
• SAS/MicroRidge - 500hrs

This is not to say that at 500 hrs a SAS stylus is "worn out" - but at that stage the wear has reached the point where distortion at 15kHz surpasses the level specified by Jico for a new stylus. (Which I believe is 3%).

 

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my cartridges

AT33PTG/II Moving Coil MicroLinear on Boron tracks at 2.0g, has the best imaging specs: 30db channel separation/0.5db channel balance.

Sumiko Talisman S Moving Coil, line contact on sapphire tube: track 2.0g; also great/tightest imaging: sep 30db/0.5db bal

The Shure Moving Magnets track lighter, but slightly less imaging excellence:

V15Vxmr tracks 1.0g; sep 25db/bal 1.5db

97xe sep tracks 1.25g; 25db/bal 2.0db

Audio Technica Moving Magnets

AT440ml tracks 1.25g, sep 30db/bal 0.75db (use mostly in my office system)

current version AT540ml tracks at 2.0g; sep 28db; bal 1.0db

AT14Sa, shibata on tapered aluminum track 1.25g; sep 27db/bal 1.0db

ATTR485U Shibata/Line Contact tracks 1.25g; sep 31db/bal 1.0 db It’s a P Mount I use on a Sony Front Loading Drawer Type TT in my Garage/Shop system.

MONO

AT33PTG Mono, rebuilt stylus by Steve at VAS, now advanced large surface area stylus on boron tracks at 2.0g

Grado Mono Elliptical tracks at 1.5g

 

@elliottbnewcombjr I can not speak to the stylus you have without looking at it under the microscope, but I can speak to the Jico. Go to the link above and you can see it. It is perfectly mounted in terms of SRA and zenith. I am playing with the V15 V MR and there is absolutely no question that it is damped exactly like the original. If someone told you otherwise they either mistook the question or have no idea what they are talking about. They are correct about it not being antistatic as it is not grounded. One important note! There is a ground strap connected to the left channel negative post. This can and should be removed with the tip of a sharp knife. It pulls straight out easily. This should be removed for all 5 wire tonearms! You will appreciate much less noise. 

I got clever, bought a Shure 97xe (my favorite Elliptical) with a damped brush. Had Steve at VAS re-fit it with an advanced stylus on boron. Now I am the only person I have heard of with 97xe with an advanced stylus. AND, it fits my Shure V15Vxmr body! Thus I can have a damped brush on either V15Vxmr body or 97xe body.

mijostyn OP

"As for the Jico brush it certainly is damped and they tell you to add 1/2 gram when using it. I am not using it because in my arm it is not needed. I am thinking of removing it entirely."

I wrote JICO after I received mine, they replied, in writing (where?), that it was not damped. Perhaps things have changed, do you have something from them, or a link to something? I like a damped brush for LPs with warps, and in the old days at 1.25g, assurance an 1812 canon blast would not send it flying.

in 2020

"

@elliottbnewcombjr  I had a Talisman S also! I liked it. Eventually one channel died and I tossed it. By then it was 30 years old.

As for the Jico brush it certainly is damped and they tell you to add 1/2 gram when using it. I am not using it because in my arm it is not needed. I am thinking of removing it entirely.

@lewm The thinking behind he higher tracking forces with modern cartridges in terms of record wear was that the larger contact patches of the styluses would negate any increase in wear, but here we have a cartridge with a very long contact patch that tracks at what is now an insanely low VTF. Record and stylus wear must be a fraction of what is produced by any other cartridge accepting other cartridges of the V15's era with modern stylus profiles. 

Original V15Vxmr cantilever was Beryllium, the lightest/stiffest/ (but brittle, I broke mine), on my TD124 heavy platter, the best bass I ever had, and tracked at 1.25g, which is why I consider 2.0g ’heavy’.

The Top Shure's each came with their test performance graph, similar to what I got with the Sumiko Talisman S I bought for it's stiff Sapphire Tube cantilever.

The Bass, 3 lp set, excellent listening as well as demo collection

After shattering the Beryllium, I go no stiffer than Boron these days, and yes, my V15Vxmr body with Jico SAS on Boron sounds darn good,

the Shure Stylus’s Brush (use up or down, add 0.5g in use, it pushes up 0.5g) is damped, the Jico Brush is just a brush, no damping, they do not give you precise calculations for tracking with it up or down).

Using the Jico brush, how do you measure and what tracking force do you use ______?

Using the blank side of an LP to ’see/set’ anti-skate as you adjust for it is even more important when using a brush. The needed anti-skating force with brush in play is a hint as to the actual tracking force you are getting.

In my office, same era, I am rotating/using AT-440ml, (aluminum cantilever) tracking at 1.4g. Their current AT540ml tracks at 2.0g. No brush on the ATs. The AT440 is similar to the sound of the Shure but I convinced myself the Shure had more bass.

The major advertising points around the V15 back in the day cited its tracking ability at very low VTF. So you have a basis to expect very good grades, albeit the aftermarket stylus could make a huge difference. I don’t know of any data, but the V15 (maybe along with the Denon 103 and its congeners) might be the best selling cartridge of all time, certainly in the US.

I am now listening to Peter Gabriel Plays Live through the Grado Headphones. I suspect the stylus's suspension is breaking in as I have no problem with dynamics playing this record, punchy as heck. My amps are returning this afternoon and I will be able to say more. I also plan on running tracking tests.

I bought a Shure V15 Type 4 with a broken stylus in 2019 for $135 and outfitted it with a JICO SAS.  Great cartridge for under $500.  I also have a Shure M97xE and a Realistic R1000 EDT (a rebadged Shure M95), both with JICO SAS styli.  They are all surprisingly good.  The V15 is the best, then the M97.

I didn't realize how good, until I got my current phono stage.  They tended to sound a little thin and bright with my other phono stages, but with my Cary Audio VT-500, they have a nice full punchy sound that is neutral and easy to listen to while bringing out a lot of detail.

I go a Shure V15VxMR when i bought a used TT from a guy who bundled it with a bunch of stuff.  I sold off most of the stuff including the TT but kept the Shure.  In 14 years I have bought 3 Jico styli for it and love the sound with my VPI HW-19 mk iv.

So, far two friends have been pleasantly surprised by the V15. Was Shure on to something?