The Home Theater Company Collusion Theory

Even if they try and build a better receiver using better parts you still wind up with crap. Because, a receiver must by definition have a tuner, pre-amp, and amp, minimum. This would be bad enough but A/V receivers must also have a surround processor and multiple channels. Each and every one of these requires its own power supply, one of the most crucial elements of every component. Power supply quality is so important merely changing the diodes has a huge and easily audible impact on sound quality. 

Now how many manufacturers do you think are going to put ten or more high quality power supplies in their receiver? None. Because before doing this they would ask, How many people are going to buy this two foot square 100 lb monstrosity? Answer comes back: zero. Which is why there are none.

But lets say someone is stubborn or nutty enough to try. Then they run into the next problem, which is shielding all those circuits from each other. Especially the chip-based ones that generate a lot of really bad noise. Now the box is so big and massive, well maybe the Mark Levinson crowd is getting a little chub on but that's about it. 

Because then the next thing that happens, the few people who might be in the market for the world's biggest heaviest most expensive receiver are gonna look at it and say, "But I want a sub out." Or pre-out. Or 150 wpc. Or 300 wpc. Or.... anything but the exact combination of features the one you made has.

No. Sorry. Receivers are the Swiss Army Knife of audio. Crappy little piece of plastic that cuts nowhere as good as a real knife, clips nowhere near as good as real clippers, basically just gives you the false sense of having something useful when in reality its a red key fob with a white cross on it. Which I guess come to think of it makes it actually better than a receiver.

+1 @millercarbon.  If u want a receiver experience, have a receiver experience.  The “box” is one of the highest cost components in electronics, so why would you bother putting crap electronics from a receiver into another box?  Makes sense they step it up and make it worth the extra box by putting higher-quality components into it.  Otherwise, just buy a receiver. 

Andy-

Everything you say would make sense if it weren't for the fact your underlying assumption is unfounded. Unwritten and unsaid is the assumption this stuff is all the same. That all they're doing is putting the same stuff in different boxes.

Not even close. The people shopping for separates are doing so based on their assumption that they will sound better. They may or may not take the time to compare, and they may or may not be good enough listeners to hear the differences even if they do, but this hardly matters. The fact is manufacturers design and build on the basis of improved sound quality, this costs more, and so they have to charge more. For the most part they do make gear that sounds a lot better than anything you can get in a receiver. 

Which isn't hard. Receivers are the absolute dregs at the bottom of the barrel, SQ-wise.

Another conspiracy that doesn't exist but is a lot more believable is the way the Home Theater industry pushes multi-channel on everyone. 

The answer to all these problems is simply to go and listen and compare and then once you have a handle on how things actually perform budget and plan and then and only then start building your system.

That's what I did. Started out trying to build a classic surround HT system based on a receiver. But they all sounded like absolute crap. So then, separates. They all sounded like crap, not absolute crap, but crap nonetheless. Really expensive crap too, I might add. So you got that part right. 

Go and listen. If you can live with the crappy receiver quality sound then go for it. If the level of crap separates attain is worth it to you then go with that. But really your best bet is to not waste your time on HT at all. A two-channel integrated with a distributed bass array is totally the way to go.

You can buy a power amp rated at 150 watts  2 channels driven into 8 ohms with a power bandwidth from 20 -20000 and 300 at 4 ohms ( no power bandwidth listed but probably at 1,000.)  A preamp can be had for $400 to $500 that will include 3 or more line level ins, a Coax in, a Optical in, A USB In , a phono in, DAC , etc.  The typical home theatre receiver under $1000 will have more stuff to be sure.  Lots of HDMI ins and outs, 5 to 9 channels of powered outputs + sun outputs (Spend more and you can go up to 16 channels), processors to manage all of this and a host of other features along with a instruction manual of 600 to 900 pages.  Most non-audiophile folks will be happy with the sound using very inexpensive speakers. Many are perfectly happy with a 4 inch, 10 watt bluetooth speaker fed my a cell phone loaded with MP3 files. A better question  here is why a component that sells for ....lets say.....$10000.... includes parts that an individual can buy for around $500 and a large corporation can actually manufacture, market and ship for 500 bucks.  If some folks want to spend $2000 for a piece of wire, some one will be willing to sell them that wire at that price. [Smelling massive profits, Yamaha is going to produce a series of exotic, super ultra sonic audio components for thousands of bucks for each piece. The turntable will be $8000 I understand.) If someone with lots of available cash, wants to spend  $200,000 on a system, they are free to do so in a free market  economy.  If the system delivers the audio joy they are looking to experience, that's all that matters. I guess???  For folks with incomes south of 6 or 7 figures, I offer this bit of advice, BUYER BEWARE!

brb...need to quick mic a bag of popcorn.

"...you should be able spend $300 on separate processors and amplifiers since a receiver is just basically both of them combined..."

As falconquest said, you will be missing a tuner. Here you go with another few hundred meanies will try to extract from you.

     Anyone using an Oppo player can use it as an audio surround sound 
processor and connect the outputs directly to the amp(s).  It lacks room control software and a mike, but has fairly extensive audio and video setup controls.  Other upper level models from Panasonic, Pioneer and Sony may also be able to function as an audio surround sound processor but I'm not certain.  
     I formerly used a separate Parasound AVP-2500 surround sound processor but was able to remove it from my system after buying an Oppo 105 universal disc player. 

Tim

     Nurse Ratchett just injected clearthink with a shot of horse tranquilizer because he needs it and gave him an enema just for being annoying.

Tim

Same hospital, different ward.


twoleftears1,854 posts10-24-2019 12:15pmSo what's Audio Asylum like? Better??

So what's Audio Asylum like?  Better??

Do all hallways of this mental facility lead back to the same wing?

roberttcan"why are you so threatened by me? Really, you seem somehow threatened by my presence on AGon."

No one hear is threatened by your presence you have insulted, denigrated, and marginalized many hear with you self-righteous, self-importnat, abusive remarks, claims, and assertions and if you continue moderators wlil be contacted directly to deal with you as they have others of you’re like in the past.

George, george, george, .... why are you so threatened by me?  Really, you seem somehow threatened by my presence on AGon. 

You called the poster illogical and absurd .... and somehow you think that is okay? It is not.

I pointed out that the poster likely does not have a good understanding of the business models and sales volumes of this type of consumer electronics and came to a conspiracy theory conclusion, as opposed to understanding why things are the way they are.

Do you have something to add to this conversation? YOU from what I can tell are not a moderator here, so stop trying to act like one. The other people on this forum are adults and don't need YOU to be their mother.


 Report thisclearthink930 posts10-24-2019 4:55am
roberttcan"I think your conspiracy theory is based on a poor understanding of the business, volumes, and costs of the consumer electronics market."

His conspiracy theory is absurd and illogical but you're response reflects your effort to convince the group hear that you are some "higher authority" who's expertise, experience, and knowledge somehow makes you more correct, authoritative, and worthy of dictating to others and insisting they accept you're version of truth, reality, and faith.  

I see people use the term "receiver" incorrectly quite often. A receiver is a device that "receives" a broadcast signal such as AM/FM and typically has a built in amplifier as opposed to a "tuner" that merely receives a signal.

roberttcan"I think your conspiracy theory is based on a poor understanding of the business, volumes, and costs of the consumer electronics market."

His conspiracy theory is absurd and illogical but you're response reflects your effort to convince the group hear that you are some "higher authority" who's expertise, experience, and knowledge somehow makes you more correct, authoritative, and worthy of dictating to others and insisting they accept you're version of truth, reality, and faith.  

Yup, agreed.  A primary reason that big company receivers are so cheap in comparison is that they can sell tens of thousands of units.  If you look at a pre/pro by the same company, generally it still has a good expense to manufacturer, but they will not sell nearly as much as a standard receiver.  The "Audiophile" community that would want a separate pre/pro is very much a minority in the sea of consumers for electronics.

But check out Outlaw Audio for cost effective processors that are "decent".

I think your conspiracy theory is based on a poor understanding of the business, volumes, and costs of the consumer electronics market.