Teres vs VPI, SME, Origin Live, etc.

Hi Doug: ***** "At the meet Lugnut attended the $2,400 Schroeder Two matched or beat a $3,900 Graham 2.2/IC-70. That was with a ZYX UNIverse on each arm, same table, same everything, we even tried two different preamps and some stepups. " *****

** " matched or beat.. " **, I think that this conclusion is a premature one, let me to explain it: first, the wires that use both tonearms are differents and each one had his own signature; second, I think that the effective mass of both tonearms is different too. If you combine these twoo issues with some other ones like: maybe the Two is a better match for the Teres than the Graham and maybe the ZYX mates better with the Two that with the Graham, then your conclusion is not really a conclusive one. Perhaps with the right cartridge your conclusion could be reverse, that the Graham beats the Two tonearm.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Frank,your end remark,about my referring to you as "Berlin" is sarcasm that is not necessary.I think you were successful at determining who I was directing my question to.Just as it is obvious, to all, that my name is not "Sir Speedy".It is common to refer to forum goers,as you know,by their screen names.I use Sirspeedy because that is the name of my business,and website.

I am intelligent enough,I think,to realize you originate from Berlin,just as I'm sure you can figure out my name is not Sirspeedy.

I thought I was asking a very legitimate question.I have always been very interested in your arm,as you probably know.Your response about your time-table is fine,and understandable.However I can't develope a buyer's emotion on anything I can't audition,and I'm sure you are selling plenty of arms.Good luck!!

Raul
Yes, I've read that reply, but what is doesn't tell me is the differences he heard, just a reference that one was superior to the other, but I still do not know, in what way(s) was it "superior"???

Can you tell me?

Dear sirspeedy(your real name?),
Your suggestion is one of many to participate in shows all over the world. If I was to do this, actual manufacturing time would be reduced to a few weeks per year. Besides, the HIGH END Show in Munich is too close to be present at both shows.
I love NY but I´d have no time to recover from jetlag, nor to prepare for the HIGH END. The prospect of demoing at a crowded hotel in inadequate rooms doesn´t help either.
I will attend the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest in Sept/Oct. again, last year the number of excellent sounding rooms/systems was way above any other show I have attended and the atmosphere was relaxed and friendly. Well worth the trip...
There have been reviews of all my arms in the german press(IMAGE HIFI : DPS and Reference, HIFI & RECORDS : No.1 and Reference and AUDIOPHILE : DPS turntable with No.2 arm).
The UK based HIFI+ reviewed the Reference and there is a review of the No. 1 on TNT and another one of the DPS on 6moons.com, all very favorable.
Whether you consider these to be more meaningful than testimony by users on different forums is up to you. From personal experience I can tell you that many(not all) reviewers neither have the system, room nor time to really come to an "objective" assessment of a component. And objectivity is something you´d be searching forever in audio anyway...
I have declined several inquiries for additional reviews, since this would simply generate more interest = more mails to be answered, more arms to be made, longer waiting time(already longer than I'd like).
I welcome anyone to report problems, incompabilities or any other troubles(helps me to improve my product). I don´t feed my customers any drugs that keep them from speaking their minds.
BTW, my name is not Berlin, it´s the city I live in ;-)

Cheerio,

Frank Schröder

Hey Am Dial! But most people have an ALT key and a numeric keypad. You can get all of the extended characters if you know the code (is that ASCII, ansi, or unicode?) alt and a numeric keypad. No option key needed!

Aaron

Dear Berlin,how about having a REFERENCE arm at HE 2005(in N.Y.)in April.Last year I saw one of your arms in a static(useless,to a potential buyer)display.I think you realize that there is a real interest in your product,especially myself,and a friend.It may be a good idea to have a RUNNING arm at this show.Also,are there any reviews of the REFERENCE,other than on an internet forum.Not that these are not valid.Just that,usually when someone spends their own money on something,they will RARELY mention any potential problems,since they have invested a small fortune in the product.Thanks!!

No "option" key on my keyboard.

Dear Cmk: Here in this thread you already have an answer to your question, by Wildwildwes: ***** " My recommedation is a Redpoint Audio turntable. To be fair, I own one. Although I also did my research and included the Teres and Galibier in my search... To my ears, I found both the Redpoint and Galibier superior to the Teres models that i listened to (including the model 340). In addition, as both the Redpoint and Galibier are machined out of various metals, they are not prone to cracking and warping as a wood based table is. " *****.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Sorry, but I can't resist...

Døësn't ånyønë ëlsë hâvé än "øptîøn" këy on hîs/hër kêybøard?

(Setting up diacritical marks on a keyboard isn't quite as difficult as setting up a tonearm!)

I realise this could be a can of worms, but I am curious, has anyone actually done a fair A/B comparison between a Teres and an equivalent Galibier or Redpoint?

No doubt there will be differences, but can someone without a vested interest, also setting aside any personal biases(like if you own one or the other), give an honest opinion on the differences you heard. The differences maybe better in one area, but a weakness in another, or it may not be anything but a difference in presentation, with either turntable just being different.

Instead of having biases cloud our opinion, rather celebrate our differences, but could someone just describe what they heard so that others may form informed opinions on each TT's sonic attributes, rather than bashing each other?

I have personally heard Thom's Galibier in his system and was very impressed, but did not have a chance to hear a Teres, or at least a current model, only serial #21. However, both sessions were in different systems which doesn't allow any conclusions to be drawn about their "sound" or lack thereof.

Dear Hanjiang: There are other two non-all metal alternatives: Sota Millenium and the Big Basis, both TTs use a Vacuum hold record. This characteristic is one of the reason that put these TTs in the " all-stars " all-metal TTs team.

BTW, the profesional reviews is the best way to start your turntable/tonearm/cartridge " hunting ".

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

As a very satisfied owner of a Schroeder Model 2, I can confidently say that it changes the landscape and makes listening to music a pure joy.

In fact, I would recommend that you spend on the table and arm, and leave the rest of the budget on the cart. There are many good recommendations for tables = scheu, teres, galibier, redpoint, VPI scoutmaster. For arms, there is only 1 I would consider, and the model 2 is THE bargain.

With one of these combinations, just get a decent cart like a DL103R or the Shelter 501 and spend the rest of software. You'll be more satisfied with the result.

PS: Frank has a brass mount top plate specially for the DL103R, its a fantastic match.

Dear Hanjiang: You really have a very nice audio system , especially your loudspeakers.
Now, before I can give you an advise about a tonearm I would like to know which is your phono cartridge to mate with it: this couple cartridge/tonearm is a critical issue in the quality music/sound reproduction on any audio system and it is not a good way to do the things: to choose a tonearm with out to know " with which cartridge ".

About the TT my advise is that you have to stay away of wood/acrylic designs ( save the SME TTs ), those wood/acrylic designs are a beautiful designs but the quality of the sound has nothing to do with how a TT " looks " but how it performs and the all metal TT designs outperforms ( by a wide margin ) any wood/acrylic TT design. That's why Wildwildwes told us: **** " . To my ears, I found both the Redpoint and Galibier superior to the Teres models that i listened to (including the model 340). In addition, as both the Redpoint and Galibier are machined out of various metals, they are not prone to cracking and warping as a wood based table is. " ****

Yes, the Galiber and the Red Point beats Teres. Not that Teres is not a good TT, it is but the materials that choose the manufacturer are not the best ones for the performance of a TT.

You can find, second hand, great all metal ( heavy mass ) TTs here at Audiogon classifieds or you can choose to buy it new units, here are some alternatives: Verdier, Avid, Acoustic Signature, Red Point, Galibier, Brinckman, Micro Seiki, Pluto, Transrotor, SME, ....etc.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

I stand humbled. Now to start saving for a Shroder arm.

Hi Guys,
Not only do I not object to being spelled without the umlaut "dots", I decided to skip them when I sketched the logo many years ago for the impossibility to turn the O into a stylized turntable without confusing its simplicity or "purity".
There is at least another tonearm designer, Hans Henrik Moerch, who has to live with the fact that most keyboards don´t feature an o with a line through it(the Danish o umlaut).
As long as you don´t get my first name wrong.... ;-)

Cheers,
Frank

Ah, one more thing: The differences between the Olympos and the ZYX Universe(copper coil version) are quite small indeed, but when it comes to tracking, the Olympos is clearly superior with a test signal(not that the Universe mistracks on "normal" records). Soundwise I will wait and hear how the Universe fares once mine has at least 50hrs on it.
And the latest Triplanar is a very fine arm indeed, yielding a markedly improved sound*(for the lack of a better word, or just substitute "lack thereof") over its predecessors.

I don't have an "umlaut" on my keyboard either, and don't know any other way to make one.

Ok, I know it's an umlaut over the "o", but I can't remember the keystrokes for this. I presume you know the keystroke for a beta "s" as well!!
I don't think Frank really objects, particularly if like me, you've bought one of his arms.

Lugut nailed it again in his latest post. I heard exactly what he described. Change the case on an outboard motor. Hear a difference. Who knew? That was astonishing.

The Schroeder Model Two is indeed an absolute bargain at its price point. Glorious sound, no significant flaws. Just less resolution than a DPS or Reference, stuff you may never miss unless you hear it.

I don't know if the UNIverse beat the Olympus, but it certainly matched it. The ZYX has two advantages over the Lyra: it's $5,000 cheaper and they're still making it! I've been calling the UNIverse a "bargain". Seems obscene but this was one more bit of evidence that it truly is.

As Lugnut mentioned, cartridge/arm synergy is vital. With UNIverses on the TriPlanar VII and Schroeder Reference we had to A/B the same track 5 or 6 times before anyone would say a word. They were that close. This didn't happen with any other comparisons we made, 30 seconds was often enough. Changing the turntable's motor case was more significant. Changing from a steel/cocobolo clamp to a brass/cocobolo clamp was more significant. This was nearly a dead heat.

To my ears and Paul's the TriPlanar/UNIverse had crisper attacks. The Reference/UNIverse had slightly richer and more extended harmonic trails. That was about it.

Put a Shelter 901 on these two arms and everything changes. The superior resonance control of the Schroeder comes into its own to tame that overly excitable cartridge. The superiority of the Schroeder over the TriPlanar with that cartridge is immediately obvious to all.

The TriPlanar VII is not a bright arm, but neither will it conceal a bright or overly-energetic cartridge. It's a superb match for the three ZYX's we've tried, but less well-damped cartridges may not suit it so well. The Schroeder Reference damps spurious resonances better, maybe better than any arm. That leads me to suspect it would give world class performance with any (reasonable) cartridge. That's one reason I believe it's the world's best pivoting arm.

Not to go off subject but it's Schröder.

"There are no commercial reviews of a Teres because Teres doesn't sell via dealers, advertise in mags or provide free goodies to reviewers. "

Calling Teres: comments? Have there been requests for products to review, be it hardcopy or online? What sorts of "strings" exactly are the requesters imposing?

Tom,
Those arms are really something. Frank has taken each engineering need and reduced it to its simplist solution. The craftsmanship, tolerances and attention to detail is second to none. These are lasting designs. The Tri-planar is no slouch though and "could" be a better match for some systems. Also, I suspect that cartridges that we didn't get to audition might pair up particularly well with one arm or another.

Several things struck me as particularly surprising. The biggest surprise being the difference between the 340 and the 360 Teres. I just didn't expect it to be that much. The term "huge" is often used to excess in these forums and I will refrain from using it here. Significant would be a better choice to describe the gains. Well worth the difference in cost. Even the wooden case drive motor improved the performance a fair amount. Knock me over with a feather.

At $10,000 the Lyra Olympos, single layer coil version cartridge was bettered by the Universe to these ears. What we listened to was the copper version of the Universe. Steve has the silver version and the conventional wisdom is that the copper is better for large orchestral and the silver is best for jazz, blues and rock. It's a shame we didn't bring Steve's for an overall shootout between these two.

The Schroeder No. 2 @ $2200 with a carbon fiber arm wand just has to be a best buy. It is worthy of hanging an Olympos or Universe on it. I watched closely the setup of these arms. Of course, those doing the adjustments were seasoned professionals but I didn't see anything that was difficult nor time consuming. Of particular note is that the Schroeder arms are proven a good match with suspended tables. In a previous session the Shelter 901 was a particularly good match with the Schroeder arms but since I wasn't in attendance at that event I will let Doug address just how good the match was.

If, like me, you consider the human ear to be the most accurate of measuring devices this was a very scientific testing procedure. I'll never forget it.

All this talk about Schroeders is giving me an inferiority complex about my modded OL Silver! :^)

I too have a Schroeder (Model 2). I agree this is a fantastic arm, especially so for the money). The DPS and Reference are better, but it not if you're on a budget. Mine is mounted on a Platine Verdier with an Allaerts MC1-B. The ZYX carts are fine pick ups. although I prefer my Allaerts, which is more difficult to get hold of.

I second Mrmb's recommendation to put Galibier on the short list. I also have a Galibier ALU with Teflon/aluminum composite platter. The table is first class, and so is Thom.

Dave

Hello: For the past two weeks I have been listening to my new Teres 320 with Schroeder DPS arm and Shelter 501. This is the finest front end I have used. My previous tables have been Teres 255 with Tri-Planar, SOTA Cosmos Vacume with a Tri-Planar, Linn LP12, VPI Aries and JMW Arm, all with the same 501. The Teres tables have given me the most for my money. Not only do I find them stunning in appearnce but they have out performed by a significant margin my previous rigs. I have recently mounted a ZYX Airy 2 and have experienced another significant upgrade in sound. The Teres tables are rock solid performers. The Schroeder arm is very well made and takes some adjusting(as is expected). I did not compare the Schroeder to the Tri-Planar on the same table but I consider the Schroeder the finest I have used. If you are looking for top performance the 320 with a DPS ZYX will make you very happy. Regards....

My recommedation is a Redpoint Audio turntable. To be fair, I own one. Although I also did my research and included the Teres and Galibier in my search... To my ears, I found both the Redpoint and Galibier superior to the Teres models that i listened to (including the model 340). In addition, as both the Redpoint and Galibier are machined out of various metals, they are not prone to cracking and warping as a wood based table is.

Good luck!

www

I second Lugnut. I haven't heard an Illustrious but I owned a highly modded OL Silver. It couldn't hold a candle to a Schroeder, any Schroeder. I'd be embarassed to drag an OL arm into the same room with a Schroeder.

At the meet Lugnut attended the $2,400 Schroeder Two matched or beat a $3,900 Graham 2.2/IC-70. That was with a ZYX UNIverse on each arm, same table, same everything, we even tried two different preamps and some stepups.

There are no commercial reviews of a Teres because Teres doesn't sell via dealers, advertise in mags or provide free goodies to reviewers. We've discussed this a few times in the past. What they do is make well engineered tables and sell them directly to users for lower prices. There have been a few side by side comparisons described here and on VA. Not many, but a search should turn them up.

I also second Mrmb's endorsement of small, cottage industry manufacturers. You have to do your homework, the mainstream reviewers won't do it for you, but the value and performance often go far beyond what larger companies provide at given price points. If you can set up your own table, arm and cartridge then why not pay yourself the dealer's share? That's what you're doing in effect when you buy direct from Teres, Galibier, Scheu, etc.

Here's one plausible setup near your budget:
Teres 265 (Rosewood) $3,875
Teres VTA adaptor 200
Schroeder DPS 3,900
TOTAL $7,975 before discount

Teres may offer a package discount to put it near your budget. That would be a fine front end. You didn't say what cartridge(s) you'll be using, what kind of music you like or what kind of sound you're after. Knowing all that would help extend the discussion.

I urge you to consider a Scheu premier II table direct from Germany. A 9" arm version with 80mm platter can be had for under 2000 shipped methinks. The standard 50mm platter is maybe 200 less. It can be ordered in a single 12" arm configuration, 9", dual 9", or dual 9"/12". This one is hard to beat for the price and an extremely good and well built table. I have a SME 312 arm coming to mount on mine to replace a unipivot arm I don't much like; ie, just cannot stand the side to side rocking motions of unipivot arms.

I'll let others comment on the table differences as I haven't had an opportunity to A/B what you are considering. I will say that the 265 Teres is very, very good, IMO. A good friend has this table with a system very similar to yours. He is using a Triplanar arm with a ZYX Universe Silver cartridge and it is a stellar performer.

I will say without any hesitation that the Illustrious is not in the same league with the Shroder. Not even close.

For reference I had the pleasure recently of direct A/B of the Teres 340 and 360 as well as all three Shroder arms, a Triplanar and a Graham 2.2. Identical cartridges were used for the evaluations. Both tables were made to accomodate two arms. This was a real once in a lifetime event and I would be surprised if anyone has A/B'd directly, in the same room at the same time any of these tables.

I haven't compared the hardware you mentioned, but you might put a Galibier Table on your short list.

I have a Galibier Quattro ALU with the Teflon Platter and a Tri-Planar Tonearm, and couldn’t be happier.

Galibier’s Thom Mackris’ help, suggestions, hand holding (this was the first table I set-up) were absolutly first class. http://www.galibierdesign.com/index.html

Dealing with Thom was simply a wonderful experience. While Thom is certainly a business owner, my experience suggests that his motives are not primarily monetarily driven; but driven by a desire to share the conclusions of his many hours of tweaking, along with his love of music reproduction with those of us found on forums like this. I know it sounds trite to suggest that he’s not in it for the money, but considering the many hours he spent with me, the manufacturing and machining costs associated with his 100lb. plus turntables, he’s obviously making some bucks, but working equal hours in the profession he’s educated, would I imagine, bring more monetary, but certainly less personal rewards.

In fact dealing with "cottage industry" folks like Thom of Galibier, Mick of Supratek (pre's & amp's), and a local fellow for cables, have been very rewarding, and special experiences. While the rest of my rig can’t be necessarily described as comprised of cottage industry components, my CAT amps, and Soundlab speakers are very close to being so –e.g., not much advertising, few periodical reviews, but oh, what marvelous equipment!

For reasonable prices (i.e., relative items with similar sonic attributes), and the service one receives, my experiences highly recommend taking this small or cottage industry path. Obviously, that’s not to say that the equipment found at the more mainstream company’s can’t compare, because I'm sure it can; however for me, knowing where my money is going, and being able to contact the designer – especially for a complex item like a turntable, has been a big positive.

Good luck on your hunt…..Mike