Teres vs VPI, SME, Origin Live, etc.

I'll let others comment on the table differences as I haven't had an opportunity to A/B what you are considering. I will say that the 265 Teres is very, very good, IMO. A good friend has this table with a system very similar to yours. He is using a Triplanar arm with a ZYX Universe Silver cartridge and it is a stellar performer.

I will say without any hesitation that the Illustrious is not in the same league with the Shroder. Not even close.

For reference I had the pleasure recently of direct A/B of the Teres 340 and 360 as well as all three Shroder arms, a Triplanar and a Graham 2.2. Identical cartridges were used for the evaluations. Both tables were made to accomodate two arms. This was a real once in a lifetime event and I would be surprised if anyone has A/B'd directly, in the same room at the same time any of these tables.

Raul,

This is my last reply to you. We tried all of the mentioned cartridges on all of the mentioned tonearms. I was there and you weren't. I liked the Universe over the Olympus but only by a very small margin. I would love to own either one. Clearly, to me anyway, at half the price and equal performance the Universe is the best buy.

Regarding your twisted logic you allude to perhaps certain tonearms preferring other turntables which, of course, means that perhaps some cartridges like some turntables more than others. With your method of comparrison it would be impossible to A/B anything. It would require multiples of the numbers of tables, arms and cartridges of what we had assembled. Doing such a large project would be financially impossible without sponsorship of the likes of Bill Gates. Also, the time required to change so many possible combinations would render the A/B'ing meaningless because those evaluating would be required to rely on their audio memory rather than a quick and honest A/B of the same tracks.

You may not agree with me or others, but what we did was about as scientific as practicably possible.

Tom,
Those arms are really something. Frank has taken each engineering need and reduced it to its simplist solution. The craftsmanship, tolerances and attention to detail is second to none. These are lasting designs. The Tri-planar is no slouch though and "could" be a better match for some systems. Also, I suspect that cartridges that we didn't get to audition might pair up particularly well with one arm or another.

Several things struck me as particularly surprising. The biggest surprise being the difference between the 340 and the 360 Teres. I just didn't expect it to be that much. The term "huge" is often used to excess in these forums and I will refrain from using it here. Significant would be a better choice to describe the gains. Well worth the difference in cost. Even the wooden case drive motor improved the performance a fair amount. Knock me over with a feather.

At $10,000 the Lyra Olympos, single layer coil version cartridge was bettered by the Universe to these ears. What we listened to was the copper version of the Universe. Steve has the silver version and the conventional wisdom is that the copper is better for large orchestral and the silver is best for jazz, blues and rock. It's a shame we didn't bring Steve's for an overall shootout between these two.

The Schroeder No. 2 @ $2200 with a carbon fiber arm wand just has to be a best buy. It is worthy of hanging an Olympos or Universe on it. I watched closely the setup of these arms. Of course, those doing the adjustments were seasoned professionals but I didn't see anything that was difficult nor time consuming. Of particular note is that the Schroeder arms are proven a good match with suspended tables. In a previous session the Shelter 901 was a particularly good match with the Schroeder arms but since I wasn't in attendance at that event I will let Doug address just how good the match was.

If, like me, you consider the human ear to be the most accurate of measuring devices this was a very scientific testing procedure. I'll never forget it.

Raul,

We can split hairs as finely as lawyers if you wish but nonetheless I heard what I heard. I would buy the Schroder 2 over the Graham. It seems the only conclusive opinions are those that you have.

I did however forget that the Lyra had only about 50 hours on it while the ZYX was fully broken it. Also, the Schroder arms were all brand new while the Triplanar was fully broken in as was the Graham. The Schroder 2 that we listened to had a graphite arm wand and retailed for $2200, not the $2400 you priced it at.

Following your twisted logic will lead one to not have any acceptable opinions, ever. Of course, you must be right being Raul and I offer my sincerest apology.

Just so that everyone here knows my situation with regard to the products tested recently and referred to here I offer the following. I do not own nor plan to buy a Teres turntable. I have been critical of Teres in another thread but overall believe it to be a superior design. I love the 360 as it incorporates many of the features alluded to in Raul's preferences. It is a glorious sounding table IMHO. I don't own or plan to own an Illustrious but have a lot of experience with one. I don't own a Schroder, Triplanar or Graham arm nor do I plan on purchasing one. I don't own a ZYX or Lyra cartridge and don't plan on purchasing one of these either. I don't have a horse in this race or a dog in this fight. Group pressure simply didn't exist here and I'm about as immune to it as one gets. Of course, I really couldn't be insulting of any of the gear we listened to because it's all really good and much better than my own. I will concede that perhaps this group likes/seeks similar end results and if this is a bias then every person that posts to these threads are biased. We know what we want. It's just how do we get there from here. I was invited to this event because kind people believed it would be an experience I would enjoy and appreciate. I enjoyed myself more during this long weekend than I ever have before in auditioning any other audio components. I appreciate what I was privelidged to participate in because I know how rare this opportunity really was. My personal analog gear consists of a Linn LP12/Ittok/Sumiko Blue Point Special. Obviously I'm not in the same league as the other attendees but I've been in this hobby longer than most, never bailed on the vinyl format and have listened to most of the upper end analog front ends available. I may have many personal defects but my hearing is very good and my audio memory is better than most. In my system and with my income I would order a Schroder 2 and purchase a Sumiko Celebration and mount it on my Linn. I know that this group would approve of my decisions since these items would be a huge leap from where I am now and clearly on the same path toward an eventual Reference and Universe. They would all be glad for me just as I am glad for them with their own personal choices that I firmly believe are on the right path toward audio excellence. I think the only opinions I expressed that were negative was my low opinion of the Illustrious and having a much higher opinion of the other arms over the Graham. That's really not an insult to the Graham at all as it's a fine arm. To my ears I liked what I liked and honestly tried to give an unbiased opinion. Comments like needing to rest a piece of vinyl for 12 to 24 hours before repeating a play would require one to rely on their audio memory over an immediate A/B or either have multiple copies of the same recording. Even then we all know that records of later manufacture are likely less likely to be a good as an earlier pressing which would lead to even more, "yeah, but's". We did do extended listening with each combination after critical evaluation. Sure, we didn't have the luxury of having something playing for a couple of weeks and then make a change. Even that method is subject to criticism as we all know with the "your ears got used to it" blather. Believe what you want to believe but the group tried really hard to be honest in my estimation. Doug owns a Triplanar and talked about the merits of the Schroder. Steve owns a Triplanar and ordered a Schroder after this audition and probably will keep his current arm. One man is buying a 360 and another is likely going to do a custom upgrade of his Teres from its current configuration. Still, another is jumping off the audio treadmill and saying enough is enough. I'm staying put where I am even though everything we auditioned is a giant leap up from where I am.

This thread has been interesting on a variety of levels. I've learned that no matter how hard you try to do something right others will criticize it. About the only thing I didn't get smoked on was my opinion of the Illustrious.

The Teres project is unique in that it was a community attempt at great playback at an affordable price. Looking at all of the early tables at their website I can understand fully that some of the attempts were perhaps less than the current praise heaped on Teres. I've only heard three tables from their lineup, a 265, 340 and 360. In each case I feel that they maintain the PRAT that makes my toes tap. I'd own one in a heartbeat among a handful of others that are also "affordable". The great thing about all of this is that there are so many good choices one can make.

I too would like to see Raul post his system. Or, at least give us a verbal description. Inquiring minds want to know. I would also like for Raul to describe his scientific methodology in detail for correctly comparing equipment. The participants at the event I attended will do this type of thing again and may adopt some of these reasoned priciples.

This is my last post to this thread. I too get tired of the bickering that always accompanies someone's considered opinion. I offered my observations in an honest fashion and have described in detail why I feel I'm unbiased. I've lived my life in the face to face world by not allowing unwarranted criticisms to go unchallenged. While cheap shots here are all too frequent these forums provide enough information to warrant staying around.