Corelli,
I don't think Aric has pics of the upgraded chassis on his site yet. I have a pic of it on my system page here.
I sold my MZ. Even though it's an amazing preamp it didn't work out with the new 300B. Maybe it's an impedence issue? It made the 300B sound anemic. Since Aric's 300B and linestage sound so good together there was no reason for me to hang onto the MZ.
Please keep us updated on the subs. I've wondered what a pair of Tekton Brisance subs would sound like with the SE's. The Hsu subs would be much easier to fit into the room though.
My my vote is to go black with the room treatments. Black goes with everything, right? |
That's how I'm kind of seeing it Tom. Black over blah. Kind of like a black hole. After all, these are absorbers. My diffusers are white. Makes sense, right?
Glad the new pre afforded the synergy you were looking for. That's cucial as we all know. Selling the MZ made sense in my opinion. We all have to keep the cash flow going in our hobby!
Will keep you updated on the subs.
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Jon, I will let you know regarding findings with the Lyric Audio integrated. It's primarily in service to give me guidance on a 'best case' tube pairing for the SEs, as an alternative to my Pass separates.
I can see a tubed pre & amp or integrated covering my needs for about 50% of my music listening time and music genres. Both Tom's and Charles' (90-95% and 99% respectively) percentages are much different than mine, and I've accepted that a single amp isn't going to cover it, for me. Anyone on a single solution??? One amp to do it all?
Thanks for the information on Audimute. Let me know how their products work out for you? I need to treat my room, but am waiting (it appears in perpetuity for the 2nd phase of our home renovation to be completed).
I'm also curious about your Hsu subs and how they perform for you? |
@lancelock I'm interested in your new LTA ultralinear also and hope I can hear it in person when I get to Chicago and visit Audio Archon. |
Tom,
Honestly in regard to the line stages I just believe that it's a combination of listener taste and system /component synergy. You're describing in your system the same result as we heard in my system. When you brought the MZ to my home we felt that compared to the Coincident Statement Line Stage.
The MZ in my system was leaner, thinner, smaller sounding or as you put it anemic. Yet in contrast teajay finds it to be superb in his system. I have absolutely no reason to question his results although they're quite different from my experience. Different audio systems and rooms, just how it goes with audio matters.
It seems that based on your comments and listening impressions Aric's Line Stage seems more similar to mine. I would imagine that in some systems the MZ is an ideal fit.
Charles |
Man, I'm disappointed with the Vikings, they just didn't show up tonight, holy cow! Okay back to the regular program 😊😊.
Charles |
@david_ten , I enjoyed a visit to LTA yesterday. Mark said he would have his amps in 3 different rooms at Axpona. I think the plan is to introduce the UltraLinear there. The new cases from Fern and Robey will arrive in about two weeks and then they will be building and selling the production model. Unlike the ZOTL40 and similar to Berning’s ZH230, it uses TV sweep tubes instead of EL34. The UL makes my DI sing like no other amp I’ve tried thus far. |
Charles, it's difficult for me to understand your and Tom's findings to be mainly "listener taste" and "room" dependant. I can, however, accept system compatibility or optimization (or lack of) within a system playing a role, but to a degree.
For example, 'anemic' is well, anemic. : ) To me, that's (fairly) unequivocal.
This would be good to figure out. Perhaps those who have different and positive results with the MZ2 as a linestage can offer their thoughts as well? |
@lancelock April isn't that far off. Thanks for the heads-up. Chicago in mid April sounds more appealing, than Chicago in February. |
David,
I referenced listener taste/preference because it’s an unavoidable factor in that people "do"hear and interpret differently.
1. Clean and neutral to one listener is dry and analytical to another 2. Full bodied and tonally/harmonically rich to one listener is gratuitous and colored to another.
People do have notable differences in perception even when sitting side by side listening to the exact same system. I’ve had this type of experience. I am not suggesting my interpretation was the correct one, just that someone else heard something quite different from what I heard. It happens.
Charles
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Charles, I get that and I understood what both you and Tom were communicating. Your most recent response makes that even clearer in the brilliant way you (and only a few others) are able to. And I fully accept your findings and results with the MZ2.
I also believe that both of you are reasonable listeners and have reasonable assessments. Therefore 'anemic' (used as an example, since it was brought up) is likely anemic. I don't see how a component can somehow 'change it's spots' for lack of a better phrase.
I'm trying to understand 'anemic' in this context...in other words, it wasn't something that was subtly better or preferred or marginally 'less' in some way or manner.
My base-line for this is that differences in quality components exist, but are not drastic. Perhaps I need to re-assess that base-line? |
Hi David,
I don’t believe that any "baseline" adjustment is in order for you. Admittedly the High End vocabulary isn’t precise nor universal. This is further exacerbated when attempting communication via a forum format. Tom chose anemic and I immediately knew what he meant to convey.
Anemic in this sonic context means less full bodied sound, not preserving the innate natural tonal colors and harmonic richness. In other words something is stripped away resulting in a "lite" lower calorie alternative. Or less arthoritative dynamics (less powerful or forceful) presentation relatively speaking. Summarized, less meat on the bone and less of a flesh and blood (visceral) presence.
Again I recognize this is quite different from what Teajay has experienced in his own excellent reviewer’s system. To be very clear the MZ2 was not "bad"sounding, just however a "lite" rendition compared to Tom’s and my Line Stages. Our lite/anemic is another man’s "just right" neutral balance. Actually I don't mean to speak for Tom or put words in his mouth. He is more than capable of expressing himself.
Charles |
Just to clarify the MZ sounded amazing with my Aric KT 120 amp. It was full of life, energy, speed and dynamics. For some reason when paired with Aric's 300B it lacked all of those qualites and sounded anemic to me. Your description of anemic matched what I was trying to convey Charles. I thought it was the amp at first and was quite disappointed. Aric suggested that I connect the 300B directly to my DAC and sure enough the 300B came back to life. When Aric's linestage arrived a few days later it sounded glorious with the 300B
You're right Charles, I had forgotten about how lifeless the MZ sounded in your system and that's exactly how it sounded with my 300B. Maybe it's an impedence mismatch? By itself or with my KT 120 I though the MZ sounded great yet with both our 300B's not so much. Synergy plays a big role in a systems sound as shown here.
As to David's point that this anemic sound I referred to is more than just a personal preference, I would agree with that. To me it's both a matter of a real drop off in sound and what ones preference in sound is. The lack of energy, life, sparkling highs and dynamics was real but I'm sure there are some that might prefer that. I'm certainly not one that would though!
This is yet another example of how frustrating this hobby can be. Wouldn't it be so much easier if components always played nice with one another? 🔉😃🔉
Tom |
It is worth noting as well that brother teajay did look to a power amp that added "meat" to the MZ2's "bones".
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Tom, your new gear looks very nice indeed. I'm sure they sound even better!
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Charles and Tom, thanks for the additional clarifications and detail. Very helpful, as always.
I'll fall back to my food world where things are simpler for me....
Pollo vs Gallina or fresh/ young as (unfortunately) found in most of our grocery stores vs full and rich (Hen) for a hearty soup.
Or if one prefers the French way: the coq in coq au vin - in this case a mature rooster. Tough and lots of connective tissue. But delicious when braised, with Burgundy, of course. : )
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Hi David,
Your chicken analogy nails it and is such an excellent illustration of how distinct (and significant) the personal "taste"(😅) variable is. I couldn't summit a better analogy.
Charles |
David,
Here's a vivid example of listeners hearing the same system and recordings in real time and having very contrasting impressions.
At CES in the late 1990s I attended a demonstration rearranged by Dr. Keith Johnson playing some of his HDCD Reference recordings. The system was all Spectral electronics driving Avalon speakers. He allowed me to summit one of my CDs to play.
Boy was I disappointed, very lean, dry and clinical sound. A friend with me whispered to me "sterile". The Reference recordings played by Dr. Johnson had the same clinical sound in this system. Yet other listeners in the room felt the sound quality was nothing short of superb and they really raved about it. A very stark contrast to what my friend and I heard.
Charles |
Oh David, I envy your food world in the big easy. Never have I tasted so many delicious dishes while visiting there. Add that to the great music, festive atmosphere, interesting architecture and history and I'll be sure to visit again.
Music and cuisine are quite similar, they both combine science and art to appease our senses.
Tough rooster though? It better be braised in lots of burgundy! 🍷🐓 |
Thanks corelli, Aric really came through with the new upgraded chassis. They're not only better looking but are much more substantial and sturdy. And yes, most importantly they sound exceedingly good. |
Hey guys, I just wanted to chime in and let you know that a couple of new products have been added to the site using the new chassis and I'll have more to follow including a Push-Pull triode mode/UL mode amp using el34,kt88,120's and 150's. The standard offerings can also be built into the new chassis for an upcharge that simply covers the cost of the chassis and/or transformer covers (if desired). You can contact me through my site or PM if interested. I also wanted to say thank you Tom for the kudos man! Best wishes, Aric |
David_Ten 1-21-2018
I don’t see how a component can somehow ’change it’s spots’ for lack of a better phrase.
Mac48025 1-22-2018
Just to clarify the MZ sounded amazing with my Aric KT 120 amp. It was full of life, energy, speed and dynamics. For some reason when paired with Aric’s 300B it lacked all of those qualites and sounded anemic to me. Your description of anemic matched what I was trying to convey Charles. I thought it was the amp at first and was quite disappointed. Aric suggested that I connect the 300B directly to my DAC and sure enough the 300B came back to life. When Aric’s linestage arrived a few days later it sounded glorious with the 300B....
... To me it’s both a matter of a real drop off in sound and what ones preference in sound is. While I don’t profess to having a good understanding of the novel ZOTL output circuit which provides a transformer-like impedance transformation without using an audio transformer, it wouldn’t surprise me if the MZ2 does indeed "change its spots" significantly depending on the components it is being used with, and more specifically on the signal levels it is processing and the load impedance it is driving. For example, if the KT120 amp Tom used had higher gain than his and Charles’ 300B amps the 6SN7 output tube in the MZ2 would have been operating at higher signal levels in the latter cases, conceivably resulting in adverse effects on linearity and distortion. In any event, I suspect that Tom’s last sentence I quoted above pretty much says it all. Also, BTW, an experiment those using the MZ2 as a preamp may wish to consider doing would be to connect a resistor of say 4 or 8 or 16 ohms, rated to handle 2 watts or more, across the MZ2’s speaker terminals for each channel. I would imagine that would result in a significantly different sonic character compared to simply loading the MZ2’s output circuit with the vastly higher input impedance of a power amp, although I wouldn’t want to speculate as to whether the resulting difference would be for the better or for the worse. Best regards, -- Al |
"Listeners hearing the same system and recordings in real time and having very contrasting impressions." That’s exactly right Charles. I chalk it up to people not hearing enough live music especially acoustic music. How can you know what something is "supposed" to sound like if you have little or no reference to base it against? |
Hi Sbayne,
I don't know what accounts for such wide differences in listening impressions. I do hear live acoustical music fairly often. Others in that room certainly could have had as much or more exposures to live music as I.
Obviously Dr. Johnson has more than I have and yet he was very happy and proud of the music reproduction from that system. I've heard Reference recordings sound quite a bit better in other systems.
Charles |
@almarg Thanks for your thoughts on the topic. Insightful as always!
My take-away / reasoning was one of a more focused component, rather than one that was broadly utilitarian....which is likely why it (the MZ2) is so good in certain applications. I imagine that LTA designed and voiced it to pair best with their own amps which have EL84 and KT77 tubes.
Perhaps @lancelock can reach out to Mark and get LTA’s take on this, specifically performance with 300b based amps, before we (and I) spike the soup with too much speculation. : )
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Live acoustical music is my fav and one of the reasons I enjoyed my time in New Orleans so much. There were musicians performing at practically every street corner. While reproducing the sound of such live music isn't possible IMO getting as close to it as I can is my goal. Maybe I should just move to New Orleans, forgo having an audio system and sit on Bourbon Street all day listening to live performers while enjoying gumbo!
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....and a Mint Julep! ha,ha |
Hello guys, just wanted to drop you a line. I got my TDAI 2170 in and have been playing with it a bit. The DI and it are magic, I sat there last night grinning like a fool. The chain was good, I pulled 10k worth of DACs decraps and amps out of the chain and this thing sound better in every way. I have some major room treatment, but with the Focus on my LP, the sound is something special. I’m hearing singing from right between my ears from the right and left and even stuff behind me. I alternated between grinning and laughing. I’m hearing new voices and nuance in recordings I’ve listened to 100s of times.
The 2170 is awesome because you can just get to listening a lot sooner. We are tweakers by nature, but it can be frustrating especially when you have WAF issues. I would highly recommend this RC for anyone with room issues and it will even shine in a very acoustically good room.
A huge thanks to you guys who recommended it, you know who ya are. :)
If you are on the fence about this unit, just get it!
JT |
That 2170 makes every single speaker I have placed on it sound just wonderful after room correction. Mine will never leave! Right now it is playing some Living Voice OBX RW speakers beautifully. These speakers are my current project. LV speakers were “made” for tube amps, but the 2170 is magic with these speakers also.
Enjoy! Most likely still breaking in as it does need up to 400 hours.
The 2170 is very special on the DI speakers. |
Ya mean it gets better??? ~Giggles~
You were on of those I was referring too. ;) |
Couple of things you may already know, but just in case.....
- leave it fully on, not standby, but fully on for best sound.
- put a good cord/conditioner on it like Core Power Technologies
- decent footers
Thats it!
Mine is on all the time. Pulls like 22 watts at most! System always sounds great with no warm up needed. |
@grannyring
Yup, I leave it on, same with DACs or anything that time to stabilize... cept tube, that’s hell on heaters. :)
I have no PC it that room yet, and it’s got the stock cord on it. Anyone have a conditioner and a decent cord lying around? I don’t think the CC or the wife will do well with anymore spending at the moment.
For now, I just have sorbothane pads on it.
I do notice a bit of brightness, like there may be a slight boost between 1-3k. Right now I’m just going from PC Tidal Master to the 2170. The USB cable is generic POS. Speaker cables are Belden 5T00UP 10 AWG
Any and all help IS appreciated. :)
JT
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The brightness is coming from elsewhere based on the sonic signature of the 2170. It is a tad warmish in stock form. I have learned a great deal about Computer playback and specifically usb of late.
I have many cures for you, but some will cost a little. Here is what you can look at for free.
1) work on the DI toe in. Try no toe in at all and then a very slight toe in. I mean the slightest wee bit of toe in. This should help.
2) I have no idea what computer you are using as a source. If a laptop, then run off the battery not using the wall wart cord. Still a tad bright? Did this remedy it?
3) More burn in time for the speakers and 2170.
For little money ......
Get a better usb cable and power cord. I would be willing to make you a killer cord for the cost of parts. A three foot cable for around $100-$130 that will compete with anything retailing for up to $2500. It will do wonders.
Core Power Technology makes great power cables with the balanced conditioner built right in! You would only need the small model 50 or 150. Mark may have demo units for a great price. These have surge protection which is important. Your wife will understand protecting your investment with surge protection 😁
I saw a BPT 1 on sale for $550 on Audio Mart. This is a great balanced power conditioner that will indeed help with your desire. I think $425 - $500 shipped is a fair price. These work great on digital gear. You will still want a decent power cord on the 2170. However, with the BPT 1 you can also plug your computer into it.
Usb cables are important. I made my own and it is as good or even better than the Curious usb cable which is my favorite. Usb filter devices from Ifi are the real deal and sound very analog and natural. From the $99 usb purifier to the Micro USB 3. DH Labs makes a decent usb cable for $60. The Silver Sonic.
I would need to know know more about your front end to help.
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One more thing. Western Electric 10 gauge bulk speaker cable is very nice on your speaker and has a wonderful warm, full bodied tone. It is very inexpensive as an 8 foot set would cost about $65. I am using it and love it. Great tone and as far from bright as I can imagine. Here is a link, https://www.ebay.com/itm/16ft-Heavy-Duty-Western-Electric-AIW-10ga-SPEAKER-WIRE-stranded-cloth-PAIR/...Cut the 16ft run in half for an 8 foot set. The seller has longer lengths available and is a great ebay seller. I am confident it will bring your system up another level from the current cable you are using. |
Grannyring, have you an experience with the cables Western Electric is selling? They have from 8-24 gauge I believe. It's newly made but made by Western Electric. I came across it when looking at their 80th anniversary re-issue 300B tubes set to come out this September. |
@thompsontechs
I have the WE cables Grannyring is referring to. Its hooked to the 2170 and the Tekton Electrons. I will tell you that it is the warmest, most natural system I have put together. You just need to be patient. Lots of burn in time. Over 200 hours in my experience. If you have the right quality ingredients surrounding the 2170 and the Tektons, it can be a system that will be very engaging to listen to for many hours at a time. |
Not aware of and cannot find this NEW WE cable you say is being sold? |
@thompsontechs Congratulations on experiencing "magic"....... The DI and [2170] are magic, I sat there last night grinning like a fool |
The Zero Fidelity youtube guy has another video on the DIs. He mentions that they have semi recently had a minor voice change. I believe it was something like a 2db drop around 1000hz. He had a resistor on an alligator clip guessing was sent by Tekton. Anyone know anything about this? |
Yes. Add a 15 ohm resistor across the two 6 inch midrange drivers. . One 15 ohm resistor placed in each speaker. It needs to be placed in parallel to the 68uf shunt capacitor. The resistor should be at least 10 watts.
You will need to access the crossover board behind the tweeter array and solder it in parallel to that 68uf electrolytic Capacitor. Not easy.
Newer DIs have this resistor already. Not sure the date the builder starting adding these parallel resistors. My speakers were made in August and did not have them. I very much liked the result finding the speaker was more cohesive and smooth. Smoothness and a wonderful cohesiveness was readily noticeable. My wife did a blind a/b with the resistor in and out and MUCH preferred the sound with the resistor in place. Same with me. Not a slight difference, but one you will hear right away. My crossover is outboard so I could easily compare with the resistor in and out of the circuit. The sonic improvement was so enjoyable for us that I soldered in the Duelund 15 ohm resistor in short order.
Dont use a cheap sand cast resistor IMHO. Parts in parallel crossover positions also matter. I used a nice Duelund CAST. You could also use Mills MRA12 resistors at just $4 each.
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I want to share that Eric at Tekton was kind enough to share the value of this resistor to me. This is a very worthwhile upgrade and points to the fact that the builder is passionate about continuously extracting the very best sound possible out of his design without raising the price!
The two junctions points to solder in the resistor are easy to locate and that is good news. Since it is soldered in parallel to the small black and white 68uf electrolytic cap start looking for it. It is located in between ( almost centered) between the three inductor/coils. This cap is actually connected to the largest inductor/coil of the three. The point that they both meet the parts are twisted together and soldered. One end of the resistor is soldered here. The other end of the 68uf cap is the junction point for all the black (-)wire negative leads from the tweeters and midrange drivers. Easy to spot as you will see many solder connections here with black (-) wire leads from the drivers. The other end of the resistor goes here.
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Hey Bill, at www.westernelectric.com they have the WE KS-13385 wire from 2-28 gauge. If you go to PRODUCTS then COMPONENTS you'll find it. While at the site check out their WE 300B Monoblocks with eight 300B's per channel. I like their vintage looks with huge meters on the faceplate. Too bad that at $50k/pair they are way out of my range! |
I forget which end of the crossover board you need to access. Was it towards the top or bottom of the array? I forget. Sorry. Remove the top or bottom midrange driver and take a quick look. Can you access the solder points without removing the board? Possibly if partially behind one of the midrange drivers. I think it is possible, but you will need surgeon like skills 😊
The board is hot glued and can be pried lose by using a stiff paint scraper etc...between the board and cabinet and slowly and carefully separating it from the cab from the lower midrange driver opening. The driver wires have some slack and you can now carefully move the board within the speaker and position it so you can access the resistor solder points through a mid driver cutout. Solder in the resistor and reapply some glue, liquid nails etc. behind the board and press back into position. Not easy, but it can be done carefully.
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Thanks Granny. Will definitely be looking into doing this. Could a guy just use alligator clips to attach it at first to try it out? |
@mac48025. Seems like you have to order at least 100 feet. Wonder if this stuff is exactly the same as the NOS stuff? Interesting. I prefer the Duelund version of this wire as they do not use pvc. They only use natural fibers and oil. I think that makes a difference. In addition, the Duelund wire is Cryo treated. I use the NOS WE 10 gauge as Duelund does not make this thick gauge just yet. I have long speaker wire runs and want a heavy gauge.
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@mofojo
Yes you can but a couple of things to consider.
- once you attach the clips you will have to put the driver back in place and be very sure that part and the clip does not come loose and short out! Oh my!
- the clip will impart a sound and not for the positive. Just realize this. Not a big deal unless your me and have audio issues 😉
But seriously, the danger of a Short is a real concern and approach this carefully. Perhaps Blue Tac and zip tie or something to keep the part in place. Be sure the clips are not going to move or fall off.
Can you run a thin set of wire leads out the cabinet with the mid driver in place ( not 100% tightened) and the resistor hanging outside the cab for quick removal and insertion into the circuit? Sure.
Remember, the drivers have simple wood screws holding them in and the more you remove and tighten them to more you weaken the hold. All that a/b (ing) will take a toll.
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Bill and Tom, How did you terminate the WE speaker cables? Did you just use them unterminated directly onto the posts? |
You can use bare wire if your posts take them easily. On the amp end my 2170 has large holes in the posts that accept the 10 gauge wire nicely. On the speaker end the Cardas binding posts don’t have a hole and it is not easy or secure to wrap the thick wire around the posts so I use these... http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/neotech-sk-8y-spade-p-2020These are priced right and don’t require soldering. Set screws are used to secure the wire to the barrel and that is a good thing sonically. Solder does not sound as good! Sonic Craft also sells the Neotech banana versions which are also very good. They are synergistic with the wire and have a nice rich, warm, and natural tone. I usually prefer no connectors, but these seem to work well with the WE 10 gauge. |
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Grannyring, I could have sworn they sold the WE wire by the foot, but I just see 100' roll pricing now. They have pics of smaller runs so it might be possible to buy in smaller lengths. I too like the Duelund wire and if they come out with a 10 gauge I'll give it a try. As much as I liked the WE 14ga when I used it I prefer my Cerious Technologies GE speaker cables and I'm sure the larger gauge has a lot to do with it. Comparing the CT to Duelund 10ga would be interested.
Thanks for the link of the wire connectors. Bare wire connections on the DI speaker posts isn't easy. |
