This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?
I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?
You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?
I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?
Nothing sadder or funnier than a gaggle of self congratulatory pseudo skeptics lingering around patting each other on the hiney. What you you going to do now? No more whack a mole. Bring out the crying towels. There’s no joy in Mudville today. 😢 MG sure was right about fakes after all. 😀
Nothing sadder or funnier than a gaggle of self congratulatory pseudo skeptics lingering around patting each other on the hiney.
How about a do-nothing but talk, self congratulatory, egotistical, demeaning, charlatan tweak promoter, with a never-ending supply of nonsense, who used to work for NASA, but now lazily buys other peoples junk, rather than make something himself, and sells those and other common everyday things people take for granted, like phone calls, as bad jokes described as tweaks to gullible "audiophiles" with extra money to burn and is proud of it?
Why do you bother? The guy may actually be photonically-superior to the rest of us. He does come across as being out of this world and a few more things. What the heck, he has been worth having here if only for this last poem. Could you pull that off? I thought so. Neither could prof, Michael Green, cd318, uberwaltz, or I. So give guy the credit. Except that he would be better appreciated in some other entertainment venue. This is a very narrow-minded crowd.
“As the millennium turns, science seems in many ways to be treading the weary path of the religions it presumed to replace. Where free, dispassionate inquiry once reigned, emotions now run high in the defense of a fundamentalized "scientific truth." As anomalies mount up beneath a sea of denial, defenders of the Faith and the Kingdom cling with increasing self-righteousness to the hull of a sinking paradigm. Faced with provocative evidence of things undreamt of in their philosophy, many otherwise mature scientists revert to a kind of skeptical infantilism characterized by blind faith in the absoluteness of the familiar. Small wonder, then, that so many promising fields of inquiry remain shrouded in superstition, ignorance, denial, disinformation, taboo . . . and debunkery.
I had a few posts here and there before this thread, but it had been a relatively tamed experience. I mean, people would argue, but stayed within some logical and behavioral confines. I could follow their thoughts regardless of my different view. Is the new turntable better deal than upgraded old one and such. This thread was a bit different. Now, when the bulk is over, I can loosen up my words. I am curious how your fan GK interacts when not at the safe distance of the Internet chat forum. Is his tone the same, or he adjusts to the actual possibility of stepping on someone's toes a bit too hard while being at the arms length? I have nothing against him, I am thankful for this entertainment he provides for free, but am wondering if the personality he exhibits in the forum goes that well in real encounters.
Well he’s no dummy so I would hope he chooses his words more carefully. But I have never met him. Maybe somebody else has and can answer that one. Maybe this is just his alter-ego? He likes that we are talking about him though. That I can assure you.
"Carefully" in my experience over the last few days did not translate into "correctly". What can we do? It is like a fun brother you did not ask for, but is around to steal your lollipop every now and then.
I tend to think of him more as the Godzilla of Audiogon. But even Godzilla has his endearing moments. Whoops I’m sure his head is even bigger now being likened to a mighty Kaiju.
I tend not to interact with GK too much, given the spam-level goofiness that results seems like a waste of time to debate.
For a little while I thought I had him figured out, because the first bunch of posts I read seemed fairly well grounded and actually defending some rational points of view. Given his notorious web site I thought "Oh, so that’s it. This guy is perhaps actually rational and is just having a go at audiophiles with his "products." Cynical, certainly, but a put-on."
But the irrational, poor arguments I’ve seen from him since, and the amount of time he spends putting down "skeptics" had me alter my inference. Looks like I was wrong.
He’s cynical and a joker, of course, so I can still see his products as springing from that mind-set, and often he seems to reference them almost with a wink, without seriousness.
But he’s also given so many bad arguments against skepticism and science that I could also see him as a costumer for his own products!
He’s fun sometimes...loves to take people down a notch....though not nearly as sharp at debate and on top of things as he thinks, so it can get a little embarrassing.
On the other hand, it seems he has experience with lots of equipment and I think he has a technical knowledge in areas I don’t have, so there are still things it would be possible to learn from him. The problem is he dilutes it with so much other mumbo jumbo and irrational ravings, he becomes much less of a trusted valuable resource than he could be.
So to the extent I interact with GK, I would prefer to pick and choose - interacting more with the "on his meds" version vs the "off his meds" version.
That’s about as much time as I would want to spend discussing Mr. Kait :-)
Yes he does seem compelled to bring up something worthwhile on occasion. Then he proceeds to quickly ruin it. Just like Godzilla ruins everything! He needs to work on that! It lowers his batting average
for spouting the nonsense he values most.
Wow, I thought nobody uses "hi-fi" anymore except a few dinosauri from 1980s, at least not on this forum. I have not seen it mentioned that way since I do not know when. That said, I use it and have not signed up for these "HEA" and "audiophile" terms yet.
I like hi-fi both as a throwback term, and also as a pejorative description of sound (it's been used to denote an artificially exciting but ultimately unnatural presentation for a long time).
I'm thick enough that I didn't even know what HEA meant when I kept seeing that term used recently. Not yet ready to switch :)
prof I’m absolutely shocked that Tuner bill333 would enthusiastically endorse geoffkait s anti-science rant!
>>>>Obviously, it wasn’t anti-science. It was Anti what science has become in minds of pseudo skeptics. It has become pseudo science for pseudo skeptics and English majors. Pseu, pseu, pseudo! MG was correct about the fakes. Even their arguments are fake. You are right to avoid interacting with me as I see through you like you were made of glass.
The only ones I’ve ever seen use the term High Fidelity since the 1960s are you and Radio Shack. No offense.
Relentlessly seek? Are you nuts?! There you go again, Mr. Fake, pretending to be some sort of cutting edge audiophile. 🤡 Cannot walk the walk, can’t even talk the talk.
How is work going on your new scientific paradigm?
I'm rooting for you, but in the race to overthrow staid and dogmatic science, there are so many others bidding to tell us science is wrong for not validating their theories.
Looks like the Flat-Earthers are are getting their message out a lot more effectively, and they seem pretty good at making videos, so maybe time to up your game?
Attention seeking, narcissistic, compulsive, repetitive, random, useless argumentative verbiage can admittedly be mildly entertaining on occasion.
Eventually though the lack of meaningful interaction or discourse just smacks of desperation and control freak issues. You get the feeling of enormous anger issues and barely concealed hostility behind an incoherent attempt to shine and dazzle.
mapman Yes, the 1960’s back in the glory days of tubes and vinyl, when hifi ruled. Nobody cares about any of that anymore.....
Hey wait!!!!!
>>>>Return with us now to those thrilling days of yesteryear. The Lone Ranger rides again. Or The Lone Moopman. "From out of the west with the speed of light and a hearty, ‘Hi-yo, Silver!'" ... The Lone Moopman rides again! The speed of light?! You are fast!
cd318 Attention seeking, narcissistic, compulsive, repetitive, random, useless argumentative verbiage can admittedly be mildly entertaining on occasion.
Eventually though the lack of meaningful interaction or discourse just smacks of desperation and control freak issues. You get the feeling of enormous anger issues and barely concealed hostility behind an incoherent attempt to shine and dazzle.
Luckily we don’t know anyone like that here.
>>>>>Uh, I give up. Are you looking in the mirror?
Note to self - Apparently all I have to do is utter the magic words “English major” and one shows up. With a psychology minor.
I have to admit I looked up your other posts and got an idea or two. It seems that you genuinely have something against those presenting things without full usual scientific research methods. I applaud you for your relentlessness and think you are wasting time and energy on a losing battle.
Otherwise, your new turntable looks quite impressive as do your speakers (Thiel 3.something). I have never heard any of those, but just based on the looks it is good enough. I would suggest you demagnetize the turntable belt, though. It is imperative. You have never heard your turntable until you heard it that way. You will get much smoother flow. Of whiskey while listening to it, that is, a reliable friend of mine uses that trick and it works. Use Johnny Walker for that experiment so nobody can tell you that you are not the one. I also heard that 17 seconds of speaker grilles placed perpendicularly to the microwave, running at max, yields much warmer mids.
I saw something (diffusor) that you said you recently bought. Do not laugh at my question, please, but how is it with dust? Is it easy to clean? Washable? How do you make the thing stand? Do you need to bolt it to the wall or it is stable enough just leaning to the wall? I am a very hi-fi and none of high-end and have no interest in major adjustments, but that thing looked simple enough and affordable enough to get to try, play, and dispose of if useless in my case.
How is work going on your new scientific paradigm?
>>>>I’m already at least two paradigms ahead of you so what’s the difference? A sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from voodoo.
I’m rooting for you, but in the race to overthrow staid and dogmatic science, there are so many others bidding to tell us science is wrong for not validating their theories.
>>>>>I realize you haven’t been paying very close attention but I actually use real science to validate my theories. Can I help it if English majors shrug their shoulders? I am the King of Science and the King of Pseudo Science. The only real question is, why can’t there be more like me?
>>>>Looks like the Flat-Earthers are are getting their message out a lot more effectively, and they seem pretty good at making videos, so maybe time to up your game?
>>>>I don’t need no stinking videos. All the tired horses in the sun, how’m I gonna get any riding done? 🐎
glupson, I typed a detailed reply to you, but my computer froze and lost it.Taking with it a bit of my soul. I will have to regroup....and get back to you.;)
Instead of mourning my loss & having pity-party, I placed the remaining rock on top of my amp. Immediate SQ improvement. More to follow on that shortly..
Often we don't know what we don't know. Yes it's a cliche but that's because there's much truth in that statement. In my 30+ years as a self-defined audiophile and committed recorded music listener, my listening awareness has grown by listening to and hearing things that I didn't know existed or were possible. I've had many systems and listened critically to many different components and tweaks, controlling for other changes in those listening sessions. As I gained more listening experience, my preferences often changed as well. I enjoy knowing the theory behind a design, but I rely on my ears to tell me if it works for me.
About 30 years ago I purchased a set of Michael Green Audio RoomTunes corner tunes. They are the only piece of audio gear that I have held on to until the present and still use. From that purchase I experienced first hand the importance of room acoustics to the sound of my system, and learned that I had the ability to tune the sound of my room if I desired (which I did). I have engaged in the MGA forum and learned and tried recommended cost-free tweaks that had substantial valuable effects in my systems. I've used other RoomTune products as well with great success. Michael's overall approach is to have each part of the audio reproduction process from the source to the room be tunable if possible, just like the musical instruments that produce music. This certainly makes sense to me logically and intuitively, and has been shown effective many times over in my systems throughout my experience as an audiophile. Also, folks on that forum actually discuss and show what they did and how it works for them in their individual systems and if you want to you can get input on your system there too from Michael and other members.
Of course we don’t know what we don’t know and we never know what we are missing until we hear it. I do not think many here dispute the fact that room acoustics play a huge part in our journey. I do know that a fair number are also in the situation where due to location of the music system that alterations to said room just is not going to happen unless they like sleeping outside afterwards!
However I think the biggest problem was with how MG came across to various members, his attitude was very condescending to say the least, downright arrogant at times if truth be told. There were some very good questions that were the most part ( unless they fit into his viewpoint) ignored or derided. Not a particularly great way to "win" your audience over. It may be on his own forum he is a little more open and free but I do not think many members who read this thread will bother to find out.
Thanks in advance and no hurry. If and whenever you feel like rewriting, I will appreciate. I asked just because I saw it in one of your posts. I have lived without anything even similar to as much as a curtain for a few decades so I may make it without something new for a few more, I hope. As you may notice, I am not that big on tuning, tweaking, or even walking the walk. But I can talk with the best of them. If forced, I can even do poetry for stereo equipment chatroom, but do not like to be the second best so I will skip that.
I was serious about the looks of your equipment. It does look serious. In one of your threads you asked about importance of equipment looks. As much as sound. I have had 4 (four) amplifiers in my life and I belong to the group that knows what Hi-Fi means. My first one, during the teenage years was Rotel RA-414. My current one is....it is impossible not to guess. I bought it because of looks.
uberwaltz Of course we don’t know what we don’t know and we never know what we are missing until we hear it.
I do not think many here dispute the fact that room acoustics play a huge part in our journey.
I do know that a fair number are also in the situation where due to location of the music system that alterations to said room just is not going to happen unless they like sleeping outside afterwards!
>>>>>I feel it’s only fair to point out that Michael Green’s methodology of Tuning, and I say this after discussing it with him at some length, you know, like every day for two years, which might actually be some kind of record, involves more than room acoustics. Much more.
For example, some of his ideas I use myself, either by coincidence or because I thought it was a very good idea, include isolating the transformer from the chassis, MG goes so far as to remove the transformer and place it somewhere else, removing the cover of my former Oppo 103, suggested also by Ric Schultz of EVS, and using the low mass concept for the system. My particular system, not counting isolation stand that comes in at around 60 pounds, a hot rod Walkman CD Player, weighs all of 10 ounces, not counting headphones and cable that add another pound, mostly due to carbon fiber sleeves on headphone cable. In fact I don’t even address room acoustics, a big advantage of going to headphones. Plus There’s a huge sonic benefit to going off the grid as one might imagine.
Noah Cross to Gittes: “You may think you know what you’re dealing with, but, believe me, you don’t.”
Made the scene day to day week to week hour to hour the river is deep and wide break on through to the other side break on through to the other side
I do not believe I said that was ALL there was to MG tuning methods? That particular snippet of my post just happened to reference that as an example and why some just cannot/will not entertain that portion even for starters.
The thread did have the makings of being interesting for the right reasons, however I stand by statement that he went about it the wrong way and that ended up driving its downfall, sad to say.
Oh, well, I guess the take away from all of this is you can’t please everybody. OK, what’s next? We got the Black Fuse, the Blue Fuse, the Graphene super conductor, and the Tuning. What’s next? Please don’t start a thread on some mysterious hum you can’t get rid of or what’s up with high prices for cables.
How does it go.... You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time but you CANNOT please all of the people all of the time. Or some tosh similar to that.
Dunno, what is the next mysterious evil tweak that needs dissection?
You especially can’t please the folks who don’t actually use tweaks and who don’t really care. 😀 You seem like someone who enjoys these wild goose chases. Why don’t you pick one? 🦆 🦆 🦆
I've owned a pair of MGA tunable speakers, Rev6 Signatures, for about 6 months now. They are bookshelf size and I have them on stands. I've had a MGA Subwoofer in my system for over 10 years. Both are the free resonant design that facilitates their tunability. I have the Rev6s tuned to their most open sound, though if I had them in a smaller room I might possibly change that to a slightly more focused tuning. After a couple months of breaking in, I was and still am amazed at how natural and complete instruments are on these speakers. Pianos sound just like pianos with all their harmonic content and reverberation. But not at all sterile or analytical, just complete. Same with human voices, both male and female. Same for guitars and drums and brass. No artificial warmth that I can detect but every note has the most natural attack and decay.
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