Talk but not walk?

"Just at the end of the day it is a journey to listening of music and enjoyment of same.

Nothing more"

BTW, I felt no need at all to re-tune my system per song or album. It sounds quite wonderful and satisfying to me on almost everything I listen to.

I guess we who are extremely happy with our systems have moved "beyond tuning" to a state of satisfaction that tuners haven’t arrived at. (Because they feel the need to keep changing the sound of their system to make different recordings sound the way they want).

Perhaps Tuners will get there someday.

Drewster88

Hallelujah and Amen to that brother! Bring on the tunes. Let us have church in this house.

and Prof, just saw your post

Couldn't be happier for you. Have a great day with your son and music!

"Whoa! What? Huh?"

Better get out at least a rain coat, wouldn’t you say Geoff?

A storm over a guy who worked for me for 9 months back in the 90’s?

Mods, I hate to bug you but you might want to keep an eye on this one. If some can’t keep it civil please delete them. Anger has no place on these threads and forums. Thanks for your diligence in keeping these threads friendly.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

"Michael is also an excellent marketer!"

My degree is Aerospace Engineering with mathematics a specialty. I had the most credits ever accumulated for an undergraduate at Virginia. Ever. Now, if he studied dynamic programming as I have then maybe I will say that is real engineering.

Appeal to Authority alert!

Robert and Prof

Michael does walk on water fairly well :)

He’s also a very happy camper which it doesn’t appear you two are doing so well with that. Michael is also an excellent marketer! It comes natural to him. When you love what you do and your as good at it as he is some people are going to love it and some are going to be in a rage about it. I doubt rage makes a dent on Michael with the exception that he doesn’t hang out with hostile personalities.

Let me also add this, it's a thread guys. Some of you treat this forum like the last word spoken with anger wins. But when you write on a public site, it's there for all to see. Front to back side to side.

I’m pretty happy reading through this thread as the OP is playing itself out perfectly.

jf47t wrote:

Michael Green

Your a genius! You knew exactly how this thread would develop. You know this hobby’s personality better than any of us.

Only you could have made this OP I am convinced.

I'm surprised you had difficulty tuning.

jf47t - Never alter my statements for your own protocol or intentions as I find that crap quite offensive.

If you properly read my statement, the difficulty was finding time as in hours and minutes in a day to adjust harmonics and not difficulty in “tuning” or turning a couple bolts. I worked concert reinforcement mixing music and sound earning a good living while your most recent favorite person in the world was still in high school so I know how to turn a knob and make changes in musical content.

You and your boss should better review the on-going glamour posts coming out of Las Vegas as they appear to be eerily similar in nature. Like two people are combining efforts and writing styles. It is also blatantly obvious to anyone reading the past four pages of this thread there is a two man team marketing effort being presented here.

Example:

Michael Green

Your a genius! You knew exactly how this thread would develop. You know this hobby's personality better than any of us.

Only you could have made this OP I am convinced.

See what I mean… the OP consistently makes grammatical mistakes like the one above where you jf47t tend to be more correct in the use of proper English. “You're” is the proper spelling so how can we be sure you actually originated this statement and simply did not cut and paste it up from another source?

I am hoping your boss gave you a raise in pay for posting that one. Next up, you might consider taking out a paid advertisement compared to working a forum hoping to attract a couple more clients via this poorly conceived ad campaign which should have been titled ‘talking is talk’.

OK, I'll bite:

Please fill everyone in… what’s special about ‘your’ genius that separates him from the rest of us or are you simply attempting to establish more needless bickering between the very few participants left posting here?

In closing:  

Did you hear the one about the tuning revolution and how it is going to explode and take over the Audio Industry on a global scale? That’s been out there for a long-long time so we are all watching and hoping you can become the latest catalyst to successfully launch it.

As always - Good Listening!

Robert

Michael Green

Your a genius! You knew exactly how this thread would develop. You know this hobby's personality better than any of us.

Only you could have made this OP I am convinced.

"...I would hang chicken bones all around if it made the sound better. Is that wrong?"

@geoffkait I stated I studied Civil Engineering which branched off into road design and traffic engineering. i studies materials, structures (stress/shear/cantilever/moments/compression), geology, fluids, economics, business, etc, etc. i also stated I held a commercial pilots licence, through which aerodynamics is taught.

Please do not show your ignorance of engineering, and of Traffic Engineering. If you look at sonics and acoustic engineering, traffic flow is much the same, and fluid dynamics. Flow, compression, density and dispersion.

Not as simple as people may think. Then add to this driver behaviour which involves psychology and other factors. Then factor in a vehicle break down which complexes the flow dynamics further.

So, in essence my studies and work in Engineering is another form of what the OP is doing and what @audiopoint has written as explanation to my questions. I have a good idea of what is the theory, but the practical is a question I have been seeking answers for.

Thank you @audiopoint and @theaudiotweak for your candid explanations, the subject and answers of which I am finding on various forums and websites.

@gkait

I am guessing we hit a nerve? Really enjoyed our conversations over the years despite personality conflicts so tell me (based on your education) who is more important to advancing audio - mechanical engineers, sound engineers, aerospace engineers, electrical engineers, architectural engineers, bio engineers or professors that teach engineering?

What are your protocols for becoming a “real engineer”?

Not to burst your bubble but I’ll bet a D.E.E. working in traffic design for a metropolitan city gets paid a lot more money than you. Add to that the good Dr. is saving human lives to boot!

How has your degree helped you in running a retail business other than checks and balances?

Are you actually looking down on those who you obviously feel are beneath your grade and level of education? In my opinion that takes everything you have learned, everything you stand for, everything your professors taught you along with your ability to communicate with others right down to the dump and lets them there. Oh yes let’s not forget those most important sanitary engineers for without their expertise the world would be a very different place indeed ⌣.

Your turn...

"I eventually found difficulty in taking the required time and patience to dial in a single recording because listening time is always cut way too short."

The opposite is true for me. I find tuning to be a must for listening. You can tune to one setting and leave it like that, or you can tune per recording. Since meeting Michael I spend all most all my free time listening to my system or going to hear live music. Everything music means more to me now like I'm a part of it.

I'm surprised you had difficulty tuning. I find it surprisingly easy and fun. Of course MG is a very good and patient teacher. He gets you thinking and doesn't waste time on theory building. He simply knows how it works and does it. Again talk and walk. I find the hobby of listening to be more enjoyable than someone talking maybe and if. I also feel good in the fact that tuning has been around forever and stereo is still a baby. There's something about tuning that makes sense out of the hobby. Especially when you read all these conflicting theory builders go at it like they discovered something new. I feel better about using what has always been there.

As far as the questions asked on this thread I'm glad that those of you who were more serious have taken the time to visit or even join TuneLand. I'm looking forward to getting to know you and tuning together. Also thanks for the emails. By you sending me your pictures and your descriptions I'm able to get a feel for your sound, you've been great!!

mg

Robert (Audiopoint)

Nah, it’s not that complicated. The only common links I have with you are I was the first distributor for Audiopoints you were the second. You were one of my dealers. Then, you worked for me for 9 months. All that happened 20 some years ago. I’m not sure we have anything more in common than that.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

From the OP:

As far as I am concerned I've been waiting to give any explanation needed for folks to comprehend the OP, but as long as the responders are stuck in their own created spins, I can wait. Besides I've been busy walking.

I for one am not interested in comprehending the OP and since the originator is being patient in providing answers to questions asked from the readership being that everyone is stuck here on our own spins, we offer some highly opinionated answers to a couple of outstanding questions. At the same time, we wish to separate ourselves from the OP’s tactics so without further delays and/or psychological gamesmanship:  

My name is Robert and member of Star Sound (SS), a vibration management company. The OP and I crossed paths a quarter century ago where I was an Authorized Dealer for the OP’s products in a high-end boutique located in Allentown, PA in business from 1985 through 1993. We mechanically grounded walls with brass cones and reinforced wall structures by applying various shapes of blocks of wood and metals to existing drywall and flame resistant wall spread surfaces using various sized brackets, long bolts and nuts for anchoring purposes. Through various tensions we were able to change the sonic of the environment. I’m guessing this experience can be accepted by the acolytes as “walking the walk” therefore am fairly qualified to post here as an experienced tuner.

Please keep in mind that the OP and I are entirely different people with two completely diverse technical approaches to audio reproduction but share in and rely on a known application for product function titled mechanical grounding.

Regards to tuning:

Those who have not heard it have no basis to criticize it. Those who have not should try it.  

Good Point… I agree this technique provides function with audible results however… as musicians, engineers, audiophiles and most listeners already know - whatever instrument or device that is ‘tunable’ or has the mechanical means to alter harmonic structures particularly when using any type of woods combined with metal parts and tension procedures; the instrument and/or room will and does  “Go Out of Tune” via changes in temperature (contraction and expansion), air pressure, humidity or whereas pitch can simply alter over the course of elapsed time.

Having to constantly adjust the room, racks and speakers prior to and during listening sessions took too much time out of the day whereas some listeners may thrive having the capability for continuous change. The initial rush felt like I was mixing music again only changing the entire piece of recorded material in a ‘post production setting' compared to mixing individual instruments and vocals. This result yielded a really weird sensation but also one of accomplishment.

The largest drawback was the system and room never achieved a reliable point of reference. Charting measurements was improbable as the environment and system were always in a state of flux eventually leading me to abandon the tuning process.

Proof of this statement is provided from jt47t:

Now I realize that each recording can and should be tuned in as an individual set of values. With every recording we play it is slightly out of tune as compared to the last tuning. With some simple adjustments the soundstage becomes full and the tone balanced. For example the bass line on each recording is completely different from the next. The highs are too but the bass more so. Once we get that bottom end tuned it seems like the rest of the range falls into place or is at least easier to fine tune.

I eventually found difficulty in taking the required time and patience to dial in a single recording because listening time is always cut way too short. In my opinion, people should first analyze their listening habits, goals and available time parameters then decide if the variable adjusting methodology is right for them.

@amg56

Regards to your statement to the OP   -

Explain how or why this works. Why is it so hard to get a straight answer?

Here is my basic opinion on how this methodology functions (anyone can discover this on their own so there are no trade secrets being revealed here).

The process uses metal round rods or bar stock material on the interior of a wood box and is usually accompanied by two brass bolts located outside the box. The bolts are direct-coupled to the bar stock via machined threading with the wood surfaces located in between the metallic parts.

Applying ‘tension’ to the bolt mechanism creates a physical pressure against the wood surface establishing via compression and release the capability to alter the audible harmonic structure of whatever rack, speaker or wall device is in use.

Opposites attract:

Our Company’s technical approach to audio reproduction, environmental sound management and musical instrument applications are based on mechanical grounding techniques. We work to greatly reduce the highly audible frequencies of wood vibrating in hi-fi playback systems and listening environments.

Some prefer the use of wood stating that it offers a warmer or softer sound hence you always get various opinions of which kind (maple, poplar, mahogany, Amish hand-picked ⌣, rare or exotic hardwoods, etc.) and which type of finished wood sounds best (kiln dried, air dried, veneered, stained, painted, hard sealed, etc.). This is where the personal flavoring selections and argumentative conversations on what wood sounds best originate.

SS prefers to rely on applied geometry, material science and metals because the frequency of these "resonance conductive" materials and mass when vibrating are well above and below the range of human hearing. You do not hear their noise qualities unlike wood.

Reducing vibrating wood surfaces greatly lessens the amount of frequencies and noise in the environment. Removing any audible and/or inaudible noise from the overall formula creates open air space so you hear more of your speaker system in comparison to a lot of other self induced sounds being present.

The OP’s approach involves adjusting the harmonics of vibrating wood and often adds a lot more wood into the environment by using more products where the need for more adjustments are then required. There is no wrong doing here as previously stated above, some listeners may prefer and expand their enjoyment from this methodology.

Common Link:

Mechanical grounding is the key process that improves the performance in SS products as well as the OP’s products too. He uses brass cones to connect the stands to the flooring and metal screws or bolts to attach and mechanically ground the products to the walls and I am fairly sure he still uses brass cones or metal objects between the components and rack shelves to mechanically ground the components to the rack structure establishing the method of vibration management known as resonance transfer. Without mechanical grounding we would not have a company or technology to advance.

I feel the need to interject here involving jf47t to amg56:

jf47t states…

OK here's what you do amg. That thing at the top of your page. You type in "how to tune a guitar" now click on videos and it will take you to about a hundred or so videos on tuning a guitar. Now if you choose to pick another instrument simply type in that instrument and it will tell you how to tune it. Let us know what you learn.

There may be some confusion as to the use of the descriptive term ‘tuning’ as the OP’s methodology does not allow for tuning individual notes as on a musical instrument but does alter the harmonic structure and sound of a chassis.

As not to argue but physically tuning up an instrument for playback is easy to understand and likewise accomplish, however actually knowing what is happening to the instrument with concerns to the forces of shear, tension, vibration, energy build and release, resonance build up and what is actually happening to the string (if it is a guitar) and how those forces relates to sound and velocity is what information I believe amg56 is searching for from the OP?

Example: The readership has asked for definitions on how resonators function. Our R&D manager and product specialist, Tom D (the audiotweak) provided information to that question on 05-24-2018 11:41am and defined speaker function on 05-16-2018 9:48am.

amg56 admitted he did his four years of time and earned a degree in engineering so it’s in his blood to seek out more detailed information. To the best of my knowledge he and gkait are the only persons posted on this thread that have earned their authentic ‘goatskins’. If there are more, please let us know more on your background. There are also those here claiming to hold that distinctive title in education but obviously do not.

Thank you for your time,

Robert - Star Sound

Disclaimer:

Star Sound strives to deliver information to the best of our knowledge as we understand it without infringing on discoveries that are currently involved in the US Patent process. We do not know enough about empirical testing labs or empirical testing methods as they are not recognized as part of our program of study so we’ll let those topics up to others for validation.

Likewise we believe anyone who posts or reads audio related forums are already ‘talking the walk’ by reasons of working to gain greater knowledge and/or achieving better sound regardless of processes, progress, achieving successes and or failures. We all fail quite often while talking the walk and also walking the walk.

Vibration management in audio reproduction is overwhelmingly based on a host of questionable and arguable theories where we also share different opinions and objections. Without all those historical theories our company and newfound technology would not exist. Theory leads to discovery!

Our company is moving forward by learning about sound reproduction and function related to vibration in much greater detail and continues working to earn acceptance from the fact filled, documents required always demanding proof and well tested scientific community. Our theoretical concepts and products, despite all accomplishments are still a work in progress.

Converting theory to fact has been by far - the most difficult path to gain.

Hi Guys

I'm back for a few minutes. Sorry if I disappear from time to time, it's called work. Or in my case it's called fun.

I'm pretty happy reading through this thread as the OP is playing itself out perfectly. The nice thing about threads is they become a documentation of the subject and at the same time they expose insights to our personalities and thought processes. It's interesting that some readers understood the OP for exactly what it was and others put their personality spins on the words typed. For myself this was very revealing and gave way to intent, not of the OP, but the interpretations of the OP.

The other interesting thing was how some thought I was being evasive and not answering questions, when I actually did present a pathway to the answers. Think about it "Talk but not walk?". It's a very simple question meaning why don't we add some empirical (doing) investigation into our talking. Some who read this said oh yeah I get it, others how dare he suggest I'm not walking, and some an opportunity to express their feelings about whatever they felt their soap box needed to be for the day. Some came up here to show that they can one up the OP, some to gather fans onto themselves, some to blow off steam, some to rewrite the words already chosen and some to joke. But, all the OP was really asking was "lets do a little doing". Some of the hints were "the laminar flow thing" and "the capacitor" thing. Both of these are super easy things to test, but the OP was asking "is anyone going to test".

I was prepared to give a whole list of things to "do" and then the readers could give the results of their "doing".  Posters did come up and said "I Do" and other posters responded "talking" about these doers but not actually doing. To the onlookers who did email me, they couldn't understand why the talkers couldn't see the OP for what it is, and the need for them to turn the OP into something else. Others who emailed me said "lets get started on the doing of my system". Some even congratulated me for breaking the ice. They thanked me for chiseling away at the endless spinning. But I didn't do the chiseling, I simply posted the OP and the interpreters did their own chiseling based on their own mindsets. As far as I am concerned I've been waiting to give any explanation needed for folks to comprehend the OP, but as long as the responders are stuck in their own created spins, I can wait. Besides I've been busy walking.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net