Uberwaltz..I agree with you and almarg.
I made a mistake becoming a part of this Seinfeld episode. Tom
I made a mistake becoming a part of this Seinfeld episode. Tom
Talk but not walk?
Hi Guys
This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?
I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?
You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?
I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?
thanks, be polite
Michael Green
www.michaelgreenaudio.net
2,164 responses Add your response
theaudiotweak Your wrong Geoff...her patent is related and direct coupled back to audio..So called isolation devices such as yours actually generate interfering energy. Sorry you have been wrong all these years. Tom >>>>Oh brother! Here come the word games. Directly coupled. Yuk, yuk! Well, I guess all seismologists can’t be geniuses. Besides, I haven’t been wrong since 1987. |
Something got your many posts deleted prof. Correction: *Someone.* Despite your many accusations of "troll" and "fake" and any number of disparaging insults, neither I nor the others you disparaged were bothered enough to ask a mod to delete any of your insults. Because...we don’t actually have such thin skins and don’t actually get as angry as your paranoia suggests. You want to call me a troll? Fine, I won’t cry to a mod and ask your post be removed. I’ll simply ask you to back that up, and anyone will see that you can’t. No need for anger. Whereas....someone so thin skinned for criticism, who actually *does* get angry enough at criticism that he wants posts pulled, had the mods delete those posts. Wonder who that could be? (And you retreated to your own forum to further mock people here as trolls and other names, continually posting the link as a "ha-ha, look at what is being said about you on our forum!" bait. A class act all the way. But, again, hey...it’s your reputation....). |
"Again..not angry at all. But I’m certainly puzzled why any manufacturer would behave as you have here. It just seems so unnecessary." Something got your many posts deleted prof. As well the Starsound posts and the kosst posts. Anyone can scroll through the pages and see this is the case, so don't be "fake". That's reality and documented. |
Geoff We the dudes here at Star Sound have a woman on staff who has added to our science of materials and shapes as they relate to actual resonance transfer. She received a Bachelor of Science (BS) in Math and Geology from Portland State University and a Masters of Engineering (ME) in Geophysics from Colorado School of Mines. She is a Registered Professional Engineer (PE) in Colorado and a Registered Geologist (PG) in Wyoming. For over 30 years she interpreted seismic data (mostly compressional waves - acoustic waves if they are in air) as it pertains to exploring for hydrocarbons. She has authored and presented 14 papers on different aspects of interpretation and understanding compressional waves to the Society of Exploration Geophysicists (SEG) International meetings, European Association of Exploration Geophysicists (EAEG) meetings, Australian Association of Exploration Geophysicists (ASEG) meetings, SEG Summer Research Workshop and to SEG chapter meetings. Many of these papers were invited and some were awarded best paper. In addition, she taught a three-day course on seismic interpretation requested by the SEG. She has also worked as a Geotechnical Engineer in the housing industry. She also has a patent on a device that removes interference from string instruments making them more responsive and easier to play. Tom |
jf47t, You may want to pass on the last section of that post to MG in case he missed it. It's probably my last post directed to him :) And btw, my interest in Tuneland doesn’t go beyond being utterly bombarded by links to it in this thread. We kept getting invited; so we looked. I wish the Tuneland forum success, but I don’t have any interest in visiting it again. I’m glad it serves other folks, but I didn’t see anything that would compel me to stick around there. (Though again, if there were an MG tuned room/tuned speaker set up at a show I’d certainly enjoy hearing it. I don’t doubt something interesting may be going on). I hope MG’s other Agon threads are more successful than this one. Cheers, |
Of course you aren’t biting. If you wish to leave the audience speculating as to why not....your choice. You probably won’t take my advice...but perhaps re-visit this thread some day and consider what you may have done better. My first post...and many afterward, were sincere attempts to simply help you not shoot yourself in the foot. I’m sorry you are so primed to see anyone not immediately embracing everything you say as "trolls" but that only exacerbates the problem. Again..not angry at all. But I’m certainly puzzled why any manufacturer would behave as you have here. It just seems so unnecessary. And even though your actions puzzle me, I still very honestly wish you success. I’m happy for any success you have, and for any "Tuner" who enjoys "The Hobby." |
jf47t, So you are telling us you use a different screen name on Tuneland? Ok. Can you link to a thread in which you actually participate? The "angry stalkers" bit is an obvious excuse. Nobody is "showing up at your door." Personally, this thread is the only one I’ve interacted with MG in, despite that he’s started and participated in other Agon threads. And I’ve no interest in interacting with him even in other Agon threads, much less his own forum where he wouldn’t allow people he calls "angry trolls" in the first place. Notice that you specifically keep linking to your Tuneland thread IN the very thread you call filled with angry trolls...but none of those so-called "trolls" are showing up to try and barge in Tuneland threads? We don’t care to. Because...we aren’t in fact angry at all, despite your paranoia. Absolutely nothing in this thread has angered me at all. I can’t imagine what MG or you could actually say that would be worth getting angry about. You mistake skepticism about some of your claims for anger - that’s your own paranoia talking, not reality. I have in fact wished Michael well, and success, more than once in this very thread. In fact, here I go again: I wish Michael nothing but success in his life and business. I'm sure he is a really nice guy to hang around. And some of his products are intriguing - as I've said numerous times, I'd enjoy hearing his tuned speakers in a tuned room. I’m just pointing out some sub-par forum behavior when I see it, and simply asking questions, and pointing out they aren’t being answered. I wouldn’t have had to keep pointing this out, if you/Michael didn’t keep suggesting they have been answered....when they have not. In no way do I have to hate someone, or be "angry" in order to to notice they may be doing great stuff somewhere else...but are behaving problematically in at least one thread. On the tuneland thread that you relentlessly link to, there are posts by only one other member other than MG. And having encountered that same poster before (who uses the same screen name elsewhere) it’s obviously not you. So why haven’t you participated in the very Tuneland thread you want to keep showing us, and that you are obviously monitoring? And if you participate in Tuneland...why are you suddenly acting so shy and secretive, when you have continually wanted to promote it for people to check out? Michael G has no problem linking to his threads there. Grannyring doesn’t seem to have any problem telling us about his post there. And you certainly aren’t shy about people seeing your posts here! What would be the difference in seeing any of your posts in the Tuneland forum you want everyone to visit???? So...how about pointing to anywhere you’ve participated in Tuneland. After all, you don’t want to leave the impression here that you just poofed into existence in this one lone thread....do you? ;-) |
@jf47t The question put to you earlier jf47t was: If the Tuneland forum is so wonderful and such a font of interaction and information, and you seem to be visiting there so often as to tell us what's been posted over the last 24 hours: Why don’t you seem to participate in the Tuneland forum? Don’t you have anything to ask...or to offer there? Especially: why aren’t you showing up in the Tuneland thread about this thread? You sure like discussing tuning and us poor trolls here; why not there, where you have a thread devoted to us that you continually link to? |
"Thus far all I have learned is that Tuneland is a very sleepy place and no ideas or help thus far." Really? I’ve let MG know. I see something different on TuneLand. In the last 24hrs for example I’ve seen posts from Malaysia, Singapore, Norway the US of course and other parts of the world all doing the tune an interacting with Michael and each other. |
prof That’s too bad grannyring. You certainly struck me as sincere in being open to Tuning. Though I doubt anyone who visits Tuneland will be much surprised. Michael Green’s posts on Agon foretell what you would likely find there. It’s long on talk...but with very little substance or precision. Mostly just self-promotion posts by MG from what I can see. >>>>Translation - There no measurements. AND if there are any measurements they’re not to within 0.1 dB or 1 Hz or out to 3 MHz or whatever. Whatever that would even mean. In other words, Substance = measurements. Precision = measurements. Measurements, you know, the things for people who can’t hear and Doubting Thomases. Or Doubting Glupsons. No, glupson I don’t mean the hearing you’re born with. The demands for measurements and proof continueth unabated, gentle readers. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck...oh, never mind. |
grannyring My system is posted on Tuneland. I genuinely wanted to learn more about this tuning thing. Thus far all I have learned is that Tuneland is a very sleepy place and no ideas or help thus far. Heck, I tried to purchase some tone-wood footers and could not even get that done. Seems little talk and no walk. Not impressed. I am most open minded and like to learn how others obtain great sound. Seems Tuneland has nothing to offer but vague language and strangly cluttered listening spaces. >>>While I have not gone to Tuneland so can’t comment I do think that these days Audiogon is very active compared to most if not all other audio forums, with a wide range of topics and deep analysis of just about anything you can think of. Many audio sites that were once very active are dead or dying. There is no substitute for Action, gentle readers. All you often need to learn how to obtain great sound is right here in your own back yard. Playing hard to get ne’er won fair maiden. |
While your smug sarcasm and keen psychological analysis is sort of an improvement to your usual droning and whining in terms of entertainment value I’m still not sure I completely understand exactly why you’re still here. You’re kind of like the dude who gets emotionally involved on a Football forum who doesn’t even like football or know the rules of the game. I suspect all you have left in the chamber are more personal attacks and idle questions. When you can’t win the technical arguments you huff and puff and try to win the personal arguments. Bring it on! I trust I will not be billed for your psychoanalysis. |
"I was pretty sure that would go over your head as soon as I said it."It might have gone even higher above you, geoffkait. I am rarely the shorty in the room. "I’ve learned I really enjoying interacting with clean slates."I aim to please, enjoy these free gifts provided by me. If you were willing to consider what others are telling you, you could learn much more about yourself. There is room for improvement. You have knowledge, but it gets annihilated by personality that strives for conflict in the safety of this virtual world. Many of us would appreciate if you changed your approach. |
prof, (writing to jf47t) "...why do you show apparently zero interest in participating in the Tuneland thread?"Michael Green, who is the host of the Tuneland forum (not associated with the video game, I think), a long time ago did mention that trolls are not allowed at Tuneland. I am still puzzled by these links and invitations to go there. It does not seem like a good match for most of the people from this thread here. jf47t calls me a troll and then in a post addressed to me puts the link to Tuneland. If there is a logic to it, it is well-hidden. |
That's too bad grannyring. You certainly struck me as sincere in being open to Tuning. Though I doubt anyone who visits Tuneland will be much surprised. Michael Green's posts on Agon foretell what you would likely find there. It's long on talk...but with very little substance or precision. Mostly just self-promotion posts by MG from what I can see. |
My system is posted on Tuneland. I genuinely wanted to learn more about this tuning thing. Thus far all I have learned is that Tuneland is a very sleepy place and no ideas or help thus far. Heck, I tried to purchase some tone-wood footers and could not even get that done. Seems little talk and no walk. Not impressed. I am most open minded and like to learn how others obtain great sound. Seems Tuneland has nothing to offer but vague language and strangly cluttered listening spaces. |
"For the on-lookers..." To those who have visited the Tuneland forum, especially the Tuneland thread devoted to this Agon thread, have you noticed something kind of odd? Something...missing? Is there ANYONE we've seen more enthusiastic about Michael Green, and more involved with that MG is doing and thinking 24/7 than his fervent devotee jf47t? It was jf47t who has mostly taken over from MG here and who posted the links to the Tuneland thread about this thread, and has constantly updated and reminded us about that Tuneland thread. And yet, jf47t doesn't seem to appear anywhere as a participant on that Tuneland thread (or, as far as I can see, anywhere in that Tuneland forum subsection). Isn't it....odd...that MG's interest level in this thread remained so high as to create his own ongoing Tuneland thread monitoring this one, and to have jf47t continually show up to interact here and point to that Tuneland thread as it updates, and yet when you leave Audiogon and go to that Tuneland thread, "jf47t" seems nowhere to be found and it's only MG posting? (With a couple comments from one other participant who doesn't seem to be jf47t)? Maybe it's worth asking: jf47t, given it seems you post so often in this thread, and seem just as enthusiastic as Michael about discussing the "trollish" behavior here, and clearly continually visit the Tuneland thread you keep linking to: why do you show apparently zero interest in participating in the Tuneland thread? Couldn't Tuneland use more participation from folks like yourself? |
glupson geoffkait, >>>>>Keep a log. Solar flare and sunspot activity is undated daily on: https://www.spaceweatherlive.com/en/solar-activity Despite our differences, I am glad that you found the link I provided for you helpful. However, I thought it gets updated daily. >>>>Huh? I’ve been providing the link to spaceweather.com here for at least 15 years. Your log’s pages are empty, Mr. Clean Slate. |
glupson geoffkait: “Kind of the George Bushes of the audio world,..." Planck, Einstein, Kim Jong Un, and now we have a newcomer on this thread. How do I seriously show this to anyone and claim it is a thread on an audio reproduction forum? >>>>You have a very limited view of audio forums in particular and the internet in general, or so it would appear. Of course, you could be faking. If you are faking you’re doing an excellent job! |
@glupson, with every nonsensical post, jf47t/MG/cult leader is doing more to damage any credibility that the Tuneland forum may have had here than any other poster. His constant "I know you are, but what am I?" and "..."troll, troll, TROLL!" schtick got old pages ago. But, I have to say, it is quite entertaining to read his responses every time you and prof give him a beatdown.... |
geoffkait, >>>>>Keep a log. Solar flare and sunspot activity is undated daily on:Despite our differences, I am glad that you found the link I provided for you helpful. However, I thought it gets updated daily. |
"Well many reasonable people do and have disagreed with prof and glupson as you can read for yourself."It would be acceptable and even welcome to disagree. It would, in healthy environment, enhance the discussion and bring new ways of thinking. However, I am puzzled by many reasonable people who have disagreed with prof and me. It is fine, but how come they have not done it publicly? |
Huh, I have not checked my favorite thread in a day or two and there is jf47t back. And again, portraying Michael Green as an everyday sadist. For Heaven's sake, stop it. It is really ridiculous. Just stop right there. Talk about music, CDs, soundstage, weather, enjoyment in life, anything, but stop trying to defend Michael Green. It is insulting to even read such incompetent attempts, or maybe defamation of him is your real intent. Stop it, it is painful. As far as hearing goes, it is not a skill. Hearing is a sense that most of the people are born with. For the last time, results of my tuning/tweaking experiment are relevant, real, and are the only relevant ones I know. Get used to it. Whoever does anything similar can hold her/his results as true and relevant. prof, The reason answers are not coming may be a bit more complex than just there being no known answers. This is not the place to chat about them, though. Your questions are perfectly reasonable, but your expectations are not. This thread has always been interesting for any reason, but sound reproduction. Nothing to be learned about that. Are there people on Tuneland? |
LOL we did but the professor couldn’t answer them. I believe him and glupson got stuck on the question "can you hear". If I’m not mistaken prof was wondering if listening was his imagination or something real or some kind of rambling like that. After that most of their talk ended up on the troll pile. Glupson only here cause he "is wasting time" and prof because he wants to get into that old can you really hear it spinOrama. |
prof "Ad nauseam is a Latin term for argument or other discussion that has continued 'to nausea'. For example, the sentence "This topic has been discussed ad nauseam" signifies that the topic in question has been discussed extensively, and that those involved in the discussion have grown tired of it. The fallacy is also called argumentum ad infinitum, and argument from repetition." You've bored MG off the pages now you're boring me. |
Hi Al Well many reasonable people do and have disagreed with prof and glupson as you can read for yourself. And to some extent some others who have ducked in and out to expressed their spin on what is a simple OP. If you truly felt this was a "useless thread" I doubt you would have taken the time to post. With internet trolling in audio forums being so prevalent the question needs and has needed to be raised (why fake it?). Most HEA folks have left the scene a few years back in disgust that these forums have become infested with internet trolls and people who talk but don't walk or this thread wouldn't have continued for so long without signs of cooling down. |
jf47t, What’s it like not to be able to engage in honest conversation? What’s it like to want to evade honest, reasonable questions so badly, that all you can do is repeat calling someone names over, and over and over? Have you not given any thought as to the look you are giving your company here? Of course, after implying yet again I and others are trolls for asking questions, instead of showing where those questions were answered (doesn’t exist here) you’ve again produced another empty evasive post simply calling people names. And of course you can’t, and haven’t once, pointed to anything I’ve written that was a "lie" or that was untrue, or unreasonable to ask, or that I’ve "defamed" anyone etc. You are just throwing garbage at this forum, and hoping it sticks. Please...stick to Tuneland for that kind of stuff. You already have a thread going there where you can badly mischaracterize anyone you want and yell Troll! Troll! Troll! without anyone around to push back by pointing to reality. There’s got to be something in you recognizing what you are doing. But, hey, since you can’t help yourself, stay tuned for another look at your troll description again....;-) |
For the on-lookers "An Internet troll is someone who joins an online discussion and posts comments designed to upset or disrupt the conversation. Often, it is quickly evident that their sole purpose is to upset everyone. They will lie, exaggerate, defame and vituperate just to create a response and derail a thread. Some researchers from Canada sought to find out what type of person would do this and why. Their study, published in the September 2014 issue of Personality and Individual Differences, found that cybertrolling was an Internet manifestation of everyday sadism. Researchers conducted two online studies of 1,200 people. They gave personality tests to each one and surveyed their Internet commenting behavior. They were looking for evidence of what is termed the “Dark Tetrad” of personality traits: narcissism, Machiavellianism, psychopathy and sadism. What they found was that Dark Tetrad scores were highest among people who said their favorite activity was trolling. The study authors wrote that the Dark Tetrad scores were off the charts for Internet trolls and “… the associations between sadism and GAIT (Global Assessment of Internet Trolling) scores were so strong that it might be said that online trolls are prototypical everyday sadists.” But it’s just as likely the annoying troll on your favorite site is simply mentally ill. When you respond, you’re just feeding his psychopathy. The best advice is, if you see one, don’t feed him." Prof & Glupson I truly do feel bad for you but the OP does call you out. Your responses to this has been well documented on this thread. |
