This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?
I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?
You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?
I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?
Referring to hi-fi as a hobby offends me. Music is sacred (well, some of it ;-), and to call the efforts taken to maximize it’s reproduction a hobby tends to trivialize our greatest art form. Hi-fi is merely a means to an end; it is of importance only in terms of how it allows us better access to music, not in and of itself. Just as the best musicians and singers perform in service to the music, so does the best hi-fi.
Mitch, if you had a Mpingo disc in front of you you’d see there is obviously something inside. There is a barely perceptible circular cut out on the top side. The directionality of the Mpingo results from the grain of the wood. I would have thought that was obvious. 😛 anyway....Obviously, some people won’t have good results with the Shun Mook disc, just like for anything else you don’t really have to look too hard to find someone who can’t make it work. 😩 Psychacoustic. Lol I used to tune my knock offs by ear. No biggie. The Shun Mook Spatial Kit is more difficult to tune since it has three count em! Mpingo discs mounted on a bracket. If one is unaware of how to tune them they would not work, they’d interfere with each other. It takes skill to find the effective places for the discs. You cannot necessarily follow instructions. Many people, I suspect, are all thumbs. 👍👍👍👍👍 By the way, I was never tempted to open one of the little buggers up to see what was inside but I heard from a very reliable source (RIP) who did. Hint: it’s not nothing.
I see. You don't want to scare your clients off with a true reference sound, you want them to have a better sound than you do. That will make them feel good both about themselves and their systems and you as a guide to a great sound. As a side fun, you are curious about how much sound one can extract from junky source. But..this approach would not work with me, and I would not send you a Studer with dubs, along with cables and amp.
They are apparently made from Mpingo (i.e., African blackwood - which is thought to be musical because of the internal structure of the wood)
and Gaboon ebony wood. I can find no evidence of any "special sauce" inside of the discs. However, the thought that turning them one way or another can affect the bass and treble is a bit mystifying.
Here are some interesting thoughts from one "reviewer",
I suspect that all the folks who participated in the original CES demo were "Shun Mooked." This is a psycho-acoustic phenomenon that occurs when you are in a room full of people who believe something WILL make a difference - and it DOES! It's akin to being the only non-committed voter in a room full of party faithful - by the end of the night you will be "a believer." The psychic force of all those committed brains makes you hear exactly what they are hearing. Or not hearing.
In fairness, there are other reviewers and folks who think the
Mpingo discs are great.
Hi Inna, btw it's nice talking to you. Not sure we've ever conversed before but this is nice.
"Michael, what are your preferences in music ? I suspect that you listen to a wide variety of different kinds but still ."
Yep, my listening covers a pretty wide range. I'm a genre floater. I get lost in whatever project or tune I'm working on, a chameleon. I've always been in the entertainment business or my family was and I tagged along, when I was very small, so I never went through the particular music type thing. My cousin is Doc Watson, my aunt and uncle had a private jet company for entertainers, so I grew up around musicians and actors. When I was old enough to go on tour I took advantage of it and soaked up many different types of music and cultures. Mick Ronson and Robert Shaw had big influences on me. And I spent time working on guitars at Guitar Works when they would let me. I didn't play so my work was limited to voicing the bodies.
Over the years I would get turned on to a lot of stuff because of music camps and different things I did in the business. Don't think I ever really met a music I didn't like. If you visit my facebook you'll see almost a daily account of what I'm listening to, short version. Oh and I was the acoustician for UMI which taught me a lot about the making of instruments too.
"And another question is about source components. Do you use Studer, Ampex, something else with master tape dubs, Simon Yorke, Walker, Technics etc. turntable ? I mean your reference not whatever else you might have to listen to for your clients."
Wow, that's a question for another book lol. Can you tell I'm trying to shortcut my answers? This kind of goes back to me being in entertainment. I am and always have been an audio sponge. I've probably done almost every job in the biz. I also collected a lot of sources from back to the Victrola days. Lets put it this way, I've own 5 stereo stores, 6 if you count TuneLand. I think I owned them for as much my own collecting fever as well as turning people on. For example while in Atlanta I had 2 stores, ran sound for In-touch TV show, ran tapes for Turner Broadcasting and ran sound for the Atlanta Symphony as well as the Jazz concert series. On top of that I was doing background vocals and Guitar Works. Makes my head spin now lol.
When you tape run you usually over time use about everything on the market. 2" for my 16 or 32, 1" for my 8 track, 1/2" 4 track, 1/4" full 2 4 and 8 track, cassette 2 and 4 track.
Turntables, I think at the height I had 27 up and running at one time.
Files, still just getting started. I cheat by getting feedback from one of my reviewer buddies and a couple clients.
Now for the shocker and I hope your sitting down. My reference source is a $29.00 Magnavox, models range, but based on the MDV100. I have 21 of them, and counting. Everything that comes in here gets put up against the Maggie. I don't like to beatup on products but the digital era screwed up bigtime when it comes to CDPs. I can rant about that if your interested. Sources are typically so over built that tuning this small, beautifully designed DVD Player frankly beats the snot out of any other source I use or bring in to tweak for others. If it wasn't so believe me I wouldn't be crazy enough to make that statement, but we have brought in almost everything possible and the results are the same.
I understand all that and actually approach it in similar way, but the fact is that once someone gets paid, what they get paid for is really a job. As mundane and not-glorious as it may seem. Some of us live in some kind of fantasy and consider money just a necessary evil of some sort.
I am not trying to make it seem like your work is not fun for you, in fact I do think you believe in it and are passionate about it all, but I noticed you mention word "hobby" while being paid for it. That is all. Hobby is usually what people waste time and money on, not where they earn it. It is just how it is. Having said that, billions of people in the world could envy you for being able to mix business and pleasure. Consider yourself really lucky. Even promoting your ideas on forums like this is, in my opinion, welcome. I may disagree with some of them, but they do provide an opportunity to learn about things I would have never thought of myself. I can take them or leave them, but I am richer for knowing they exist. And I even paid nothing.
"In a sense, it does not give you any free time, but it is still a job. Kind of, working after hours thinking you are having fun while you are actually perfecting what you do for money."
I've always been an odd bird when it comes to money. I put fun way before money. Money is a drain on the soul and I don't buy into the American way of capitalism. When people live for money they become a slave to it, many times become selfish and dishonest. I don't live that way, come good or bad. Glupson, there's a big difference between working and doing ones calling. If tuning was work I wouldn't do it. Even putting a negative spin on it by calling it working for money makes me squirm.
it's called life my friend and everyone lives it their own way
Michael, what are your preferences in music ? I suspect that you listen to a wide variety of different kinds but still . And another question is about source components. Do you use Studer, Ampex, something else with master tape dubs, Simon Yorke, Walker, Technics etc. turntable ? I mean your reference not whatever else you might have to listen to for your clients. If someone uses inferior source one can tune until hell freezes over - nothing good will really come out of this, though there might be improvements.
glubson just does one thing. And he does it fairly well. And that’s troll. It’s called glubson’s, Gee whiz, what about this, what about that? routine. It has served him well. He will string you along until the cows come home. 🐄 🐄 🐄
I think I do get the sense of where you stand in all of this, but do not forget one detail and I am not mentioning it in any bad way. Everyone has to eat and pay electricity, etc. so it is fine.
If you get paid for something, it is not a hobby. It is a job you are lucky to enjoy.
In a sense, it does not give you any free time, but it is still a job. Kind of, working after hours thinking you are having fun while you are actually perfecting what you do for money.
"Thanks for that short description about wood. It does seem like a tedious work with lots of trial and error. I am sure with some experience the error part gets smaller, but still. To get to that experience, lots of wood must have gone to dumpster or wherever else."
You know how people say "they do" something? Well there’s a big difference between making a flash attempt and living inside of an art, any art. From the other side of the fence (past plug & play) there is so much potential for playing our systems the average hobbyist has no idea until they start there own Tuning journey. I don't just preach it, I live it.
I do two things in this hobby. One is try to find that perfect sound for everyone through creating and methodizing it. The other is do my best to share that there is more if someone wants it.
These forums are very weird for me, as you have gathered. It’s weird because I am somewhere between a full service Acoustical, Mechanical and Electrical inventor and an extreme listener myself. I don’t like the way the hobby is marketed, I believe and encourage DIY as much as I do push my own designing, I believe in the whole and not just a small part and I enjoy watching people move from "Fixed" to "Variable". I don’t just say "everything affects everything else" I have done it every day of my life, literally. LOL do you know what my work is? Music. Done you know what my hobby is? Music. Do you know what I do with my spare time? Music. Do I have a life outside of music? Nope!
I also believe everyone here is the master of their own system and they can start and stop anywhere they want, but someone has to get their hands in the saw dust, or find the right pitch on the metal cnc speed. Someone has to listen to every inch of every room and come up with a way to voice that room. Someone has to take apart those components to see how they tick, and then build them back up mechanically efficient and variable. Someone has to know this audio thing inside and out. And most important, someone has to build and create a method of tuning that allows us to play every recording any way we want.
Glupson, you criticize me for my writing. Maybe your right maybe I’m a terrible communicator. Others get hung up on whatever they do, nothing I can do about that, it’s the nature of public forums. I’m not here to join a club or change who I am or hide behind a username or keyboard. I’m simply here to turn people on to Tuning.
I hope this thread never goes away and I also hope readers can be encourage to take that next step, cause it’s out there waiting for them. I hope someday we get past the talking and share the walking. We’ve covered 33 pages of personalities, but walking doesn’t have to be walking in a continuum circle. Walking in this hobby could actually turn out to be walking forward, not in a circle, not backward and not sidetracks. That’s the only reason you see Tunees stopping by but not staying.
Maybe someday this thread will step up to the plate, who knows.
Mpingo is a Bonobo kind. If you are really curious, he was sharing something that looked like a big carrot with Mobali. I do not think it was a carrot, though. There were no bananas in sight.
"I read about some people in Swiss Alps, near the border with Italy, who make great violins. One of them at particular time of the year chooses the day and a few spruce trees to fell. He selects those trees, who knows how, but he doesn't want to be wrong."
As HEA continues to evolve it's going to give way to "Premier Audio" (the more creative side of the hobby). It's the difference between Dollars & Sense. High End Audio is about money whereas Premier Audio is about position of importance.
The more premier part of the audiophile hobby is about Tuning, exactly like a musical instrument. A finely designed and tunable system will out perform a big dollar system any day of the week. Wood and other materials are of course the major contributors of the greatest music in the world, history has proven this, so have I and others like me. Shun Mook is another very good example of this. There are a few companies that understand the development and tuning of resonances instead of killing them and that's the next chapter for the extreme listener. The hobby got way off balance and built themselves into a corner (I'm talking about high end), but during this time the R&D by some of us have moved closer to the musical instrument in our designs and thinking. Tune the energy as opposed to distorting it. Tuning is the opposite of distortion, that's important for the hobby to get itself around. Once it does hold on for the ride of your listening lives.
"The idea of writing a book, Michael, is I think a good one."
The book is in the making, but I am a very lazy writer. I'm more about pushing the hobby in the correct direction (musical instruments) then I am an editor. The newer reviews coming out on Tuning need to find the ears of folks first and then the promoting will follow.
One other thing that makes me lazy is, it's hard to get me out of the listening chair or working on other's systems. Making or watching a tunable system come together for someone is like a transformation for them. What they thought was important fades pretty fast after a couple tuning steps. It's even made some people angry after spending so much money (High End) to find that they didn't need to. That's a head spin for anyone who had bought into the expensive product scam. And that's what it comes down to, a method is more valuable then expensive gear worshipping.
The hobby is getting close to the realization and when it finally does happen HEA as we knew it will be archived.
Let me just add this too. Sometimes things have to die before the next chapter can start. High End Audio hit a wall in the mid 90's and it has taken this long (and continues to) for the money chasing part of this hobby to die. The hobby instead of going after the next logical step was more concerned about cashing in. All of us saw it happen but the magazines were so convincing that the hobbyist had to spend all their money on the HEA revolving sales door, that the audio closets grew till the hobbyist couldn't cram any more failed components in. The hobbyist went in a very weird direction and it became obvious for a lot of guys who didn't bite on the spending that something was up. All we have to do is ask folks here who stopped buying new after the mid 90's or even before and we would find that expensive audio went off on it's own glory trip, but only a few really followed. Anyway I could go on and will if asked, but the next audiophile movement (that actually started many years ago) will be more for the listener then the collector.
Thanks for that short description about wood. It does seem like a tedious work with lots of trial and error. I am sure with some experience the error part gets smaller, but still. To get to that experience, lots of wood must have gone to dumpster or wherever else.
I saw a monkey named Mpingo a few days ago. He was in a zoo and was quite cute. Just one Mpingo placed judiciously in a room can transform that room from bland to grand.
They used to be all over the Internet for $40 previously owned but I haven’t looked in a while. Maybe some kind soul will read this and offer you some. But there’s worse news. It appears the usual sellers are out of stock. And no ads pop up on the used market. End game. 😫
geoffkait, what's inside the Mpingo? I don't recall it being said that there was anything inside. I can't find a reference to that on the web. I remember the stir these things caused in the 90's. Its kind of like the current tuning discussion.
One of the more amazing devices ever conceived by audiophile is the rather innocuous inch and a half Mpingo disc, a combo of African rosewood and Mpingo wood with a tiny little surprise in the center. 🤗 Just one Mpingo placed judiciously in a room can transform the sound from bland to grand. 😁 I’m not hot doggin ya! 🌭
A journey of a thousand miles begins with one step.
glupson "...saying someone has been selling fire hazards when there has never been even one case..." This is not that much of a strong supportive statement. Having a nuclear bomb in a backyard would be some sort of a hazard, even when there has never been a one case of it exploding in someone’s backyard.
O..M..G! Wow! Leave to glubson to open with the nuclear bomb ploy. Will these people stop at nothing? What’s next? Oh, don’t tell me! They wouldn’t go THERE, would they? 😩 DON’T DO IT GLUBSON!!
POP QUIZ- how many audiophiles accidentally burned down their house in 2017?
Extra credit: how many audiophiles destroyed their neighborhood with an accidental atomic bomb detonation?
"The F5 is a juiced up Pass design. To be specific, it's a fully complementary. push-pull, 2 stage, FET based amplifier running in full class A idling at 1.42 amp at 32V. The heatsinks are at about 56c idling. It's what class A amps do, especially home brew amps."
Honestly kosst, I kind of doubt Joe Smoe would ever remotely be interested in your self proclaimed risk taking fire hazard, do you? I also think Joe Smoe is smart enough to ask me which products to buy, everyone else does. But for the sake of your peace of mind and effort to save the whales would you prefer me to put a picture up on my website showing one of the bigger gauge strips? I would be willing to do that just for your personal peace of mind.
I read about some people in Swiss Alps, near the border with Italy, who make great violins. One of them at particular time of the year chooses the day and a few spruce trees to fell. He selects those trees, who knows how, but he doesn't want to be wrong. The idea of writing a book, Michael, is I think a good one.
Interesting you say that because that’s part of our speech when we give tours. "wood never dies"
"everything matters, including how it is dried. Maybe Michael will elaborate."
I have learned so much about curing and voicing I could fill a book and then some. After listening my number two function in life is probably sanding and rubbing and flipping wood. Voicing a piece of wood into a musical instrument is a life long passion, and every time it happens it’s like giving birth to a new creation.
I had a listener here last fall testing out some of my top boards to see which one he liked the best. While he was here I did up a board for him to listen to using instrument finish. I also did up a board using my own body oil. He was blown away by the one I made with my oil in the mix.
My curing space is 650sq feet and all I do in there is cure wood. People are surprised when I give them a demo. I do three types of curing on every board, Sun, Shade and indoor curing. Let me give an example. You guys would think that a piece of redwood sitting in las vegas would get pretty dry right? Well when I bring this wood home from the yard I make it 1/3 the weight bought at the yard. And that’s wood sitting in the desert before I get it. When I’m done doing my method of drying the wood is light as a feather.
For me it depends on the tone of the board, so that means different types of harvesting for different types of wood, but it's all pretty standard with Low Tone Wood. Where it gets tricky is the more dense wood.
When I started grading wood I broke it down in 3 ways, tone, pitch and mass. Tone I use different levels Xtreme Low Tone, Low Tone, Medium Tone, High Tone. Pitch comes next. You almost have to be with me the first couple times testing pitch. Mass is size, density, cut of wood (part of tree) and shape.
There are a few ways to judge a board and there are a couple ways boards are setup when you go to look at them. The first thing I do when going through bunks or stacks is pull the board out from the stack and watch it breathe. If it's a Low Tone I'll be able to see what is going on as soon as I get the board on it's own. Medium Tone and High Tone I have to buy samples and bring them to my drying room.
To make the answer shorter the answer is yes seasons do matter, but I pick wood all year round. I'm more concerned about how it cures more than time of year. I do have my own curing schedule though. About 30% of the wood I buy makes it to an end product. The rest gets used for pulp I use for making my own dope. Some gets scrapped but not much.
"...saying someone has been selling fire hazards when there has never been even one case..."
This is not that much of a strong supportive statement. Having a nuclear bomb in a backyard would be some sort of a hazard, even when there has never been a one case of it exploding in someone’s backyard. I am not saying that a few allegedly wrong wires are equaling a nuclear bomb. Unless those wires are inside of it. You can pick pretty much anything dangerous and, if nothing bad happens, you will still have time left to google "luck". I will leave to the rest of the crew to continue debating if Michael Green Audio wires are a hazard or not.
Yes, Michael, one of the reasons why I asked it. The other, I heard, just heard that Brazilian Rosewood, which is no longer legal to import, by the way, gives the most sophisticated sound, generally speaking. One day, perhaps. Custom speakers is an audiophile dream.
Does it matter when the wood is harvested (time of the year), how old it was, or how rainy the previous year was? It matters for wine and a few other products so maybe it matters for some audio equipment, too.
So that’s why you were asking about the Rosewood. That would help me a lot if I were to make a speaker custom for you, for example.
For clients like that, I usually send them a speaker to get use to and then work on referencing their sound. I have some folks who nail their sound right off the bat and others that take some time. It’s a lot of fun for me doing custom. It’s also a lot of fun for me being the only HEA tunable speaker designer, up till now. I think we've created a nice little family of clients who all add to the mix. Some are even instrument builders themselves.
That's a lot of work and takes a real good hearing. Sound I would want ? Paco de Lucia's custom Conde Hermanos guitar, to start with and go from there. Finest instrument I have ever heard live. I heard a few fine opera voices too but not top level.
The wood I have voiced up for people's turntables the last couple of years are..
Redwood (3 varieties) Cherry, Western Red Cedar, Poplar, Brazilian Pine, Beech, Birch, Walnut, Basswood, Purple Heart, Maple, African Rosewood, Bubinga...and I know I'm forgetting a few. I posted it somewhere on TuneLand.
On speakers there are several main parts for my use. Front baffle board, sides top bottom, rear panel, tuning bars, plates (like tweeter plates), divide (for floorstanders), seams and speaker baskets (frames).
I've used some rosewoods, but you have to be careful not to let the notes shift up or get phase-y and some woods do this easier than others, especially when you get over 1/4" thick. You can layer woods but that gets tricky too. Moving to the desert in 2004 changed my designing drastically, for the better. There are some of the best dry houses in the world here. A dry house is better than a kiln.
We also do all of our own veneering here, which gives me a lot more control. Being able to make your own layers with skins and pulp or hardwood has been a dream come true. You can pretty much ask me to create a sound you've wanted but have been missing and I can now do it. Pretty cool! There are some reviews coming out on the new Revs soon so that's exciting.
Anyone compared different woods under turntables or/and tape decks ? I didn't get to it yet . There should be a difference, theoretically. Michael, how about speakers made from Brazilian Rosewood or other rosewoods ? Speaking of speakers as instruments. Before tuning wall current and doing other interesting things, it's the speakers where it starts.
Mike because you do not understand how your own products work or understand the origins of making sound then there is nothing at all to follow. Another tree reference your... Knot my brother. Tom
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
