It’s all so subjective, I’d suggest you take them to a few reputable dealers and see what they like the sound of. I’d focus first on speakers, and strongly suggest they try them in their room. Then find a good amp that plays well with the speakers. Even the dealer isn't trustworthy, an actual demo of the equipment is better than none... they certainly don’t have to purchase from that dealer if they’re not comfortable. If its not possible to work with a dealer, I’d look to well known proven neutral speakers like Harbeth, Proac, Wharfedale, Rogers, Spendor, etc, then help them try amps with whatever speakers they pick.
System forclassical music
Some friends are looking to upgrade their home stereo system from something that is probably 30 years old with in-wall speakers wired throughout their house. They are classical music buffs, which makes me leery of giving them much advice (I prefer rock, female jazz vocalists and Argentine tango). They are discerning listeners, but probably because of their current system their expectations were low - they really didn't think that a home system could come anywhere close to a concert hall experience until I streamed Chapotier's Te Deum from Qobuz on my (modest) system and their eyebrows went up. I told them that they could reasonably do even better, but I really wouldn't know what to advise them. I realized that I actually don't know a dealer I would trust sending them to! Sad, but true.
So let's say a budget of $5 to $10K for a core system (streamer, DAC, amps, sub, speakers - TT and CD transport to be added later). Integrated is fine. Assume a 15x20 multi-purpose room (I alerted them to room correction, but first things first). Any suggestions as to what might be a good fit for them? Thanks.
So let's say a budget of $5 to $10K for a core system (streamer, DAC, amps, sub, speakers - TT and CD transport to be added later). Integrated is fine. Assume a 15x20 multi-purpose room (I alerted them to room correction, but first things first). Any suggestions as to what might be a good fit for them? Thanks.
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In general, as someone who listens to Classical about 99%, I prefer accuracy, and not something that sugar coats bad recordings. One question would be if they value surround sound, as Classical Music lovers have kept SACD alive for the last 20 years. Assuming that the answer to the above is no, you still need to know what the preferred source will be—CDs, Vinyl, CDs that have been burned to a HD,Vinyl, tape, etc. In general tubes somewhere in the system—preamp is fine-provides a better soundstage depth, so the percussion sounds like it is coming from the back of the Orchestra and not from the Conductors waist pocket. Also a sub to get those really low percussive effects that composers such as Mahler and Shostakovich revel in. Sinus Fabre is usually the speakers touted for CM, and they look great, but I’m not a fan due to colorations. I would rather get a value for money speaker like Paradigm |
Yes, I did mean Charpontier. As is obvious, I'm not a CM fan. I don't know the preferred source yet; I just assumed it would be streaming. I doubt that they want in--wall speakers in a new system. It just what they have now. I didn't know that SACD was big for the CM world. Thanks for alerting me to that. Any dealers all of you can point us to in Chicago? Thanks. |
How willing are they to deal with separates? with tubes? They might be better off with something like the NAD M10 or M33 (both of which have a streamer, DAC and room correction) and speakers they like. There is a lot of classical music available streaming (Primephonic and Idagio are almost exclusively classical) so this would seem to work easily and well. |
It is good to know that there are still a few people who listen to classical music. As a number of other contributors have already said, it would be a very good idea for your friends to visit a local hi-fi dealer and try a few different combinations before deciding. Also, I stongly recommend that they include an SACD player in their shopping list - Marantz make some wonderful SACD players, but a few other brands are also available. Many of the classical music labels (eg BIS, Chandos, Channel Classics, Pentatone) produce outstanding recordings on SACD and of course they cannot be copied so they must be played from the original disc. Having said that, I have found that ripping longer classical recordings (eg opera and long symphonies) often introduces unwanted clicks or gaps in the music so I find it simpler just to play all my music from the original CD. When auditioning hifi I find it is useful to follow some sort of structure or methodology so I understand the choices I make and end up with a system that is suitable for playing the type of music that I like. These are the tests I use, but I am sure they will be able to think of some tests of their own: 1) Dynamic range. Classical music often has a wide dynamic range and many systems struggle with it. They should choose a piece of music that goes from very quiet to very loud and then back to quiet again. Do they lose detail in the loud passages? If so then it is not the right solution for them. For this test I often use Mahler's Symphony number 2 or Shostakovich's 8th symphony. 2) Piano. For some reason many systems find it difficult to produce the sound of a piano. Again this test will weed out any systems that are not upo to the job. Any piece of solo piano music will suffice 3) Human voice. Choose different types of voice - bass, counter tenor, soprano, choral and ensure that they all sound realistic. Many systems are unable to produce a warm and pleasing sound with the counter tenor and soprano voices for example. 4) Detail. Any recording on original instruments is good for this test. I find the Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin is a good choice but any recoirding on original instruments can be used. You should be able to hear all the instruments clearly and distinctly, 5) Woodwind. Again, the subtle differences between the different woodwind instruments can be hard to reproduce accurately. Listen especially for the oboe and the flute. You should be able to hear which instrument is playing and if you cannot then it would rule a system out for any discerning listener. The Brahms Serenades are a good choice for this test. 6) Your favourite piece of music. It might seem obvious but any music that is a particular favourite must sound perfect on the chosen system. 7) A poor recording. Poor recordings can sound terrible on very revealing systems. Of course we want the system to be revealing but we do want to hear the music and not just the defects. I hope this helps. Incidentally the composer in question is Charpentier (despite the fact that it is pronounced Charpontier). |
Hegel has a lot of integrated that can be had with built-in dacs. I personally like the Schiit Ragnarok integrated and think that it could be the base for a perfect system for them. Can also be had with dac. Then add some suitable speakers. I have heard some nice Fyne. F502 might be a good starter. Add a streamer and you have a full system for about $6k or $7k. https://reviewary.com/fyne-audio-f502sp-review/ https://www.stereophile.com/content/schiit-audio-ragnarok-2-integrated-amplifier |
They don’t sound like they are very sophisticated in audio, so I wouldn’t assume that streaming would be the source. They may have an interest in surround sound, since they currently have in walls and these may be in some type of surround set up (as well as the SACD issue mentioned before). Chicago dealers: My current is Simply Stereo, located in the suburb of Palatine I have also used Saturday Audio Exchange, located in the city on the North SIde on Belmont Ave, and Rouge Audio, on Milwaukee Ave in Bucktown. Dave at Simply Stereo is a fantastic guy who won’t try to sell them equipment they don’t want/need and will do his utmost to try to integrate stuff that they already have, if that is the way they choose to go. I have friends that moved into a townhome that had in walls that were of the same vintage you described and that were bizarrely wired (I couldn’t figure it out, at least). They wanted to use their then current AVR (despite my pleas to junk it, as they could afford much better and are also discerning music listeners) and they were tremendously relieved when he didn’t bat an eyelash when he simply plugged in their AVR after making some necessary changes in their wiring (other people they dealt with were trying to sell them mega bucks systems that was a step to far for them back then. They have since come back to Dave on their own and started upgrading). Finally-if they live in the area, have been vaccinated, and aren’t Serial Killers, I can host them for an afternoon. I have one “HE” two channel system and two midfi HT systems in my home. I use digital sources only. Contact me privately if their is interest |
Hello, First- it’s all about the subwoofers when it comes to classical music. The reason is to listen at lower levels you need a good sub so you don’t need a lot of volume from the integrated amp to get full dynamic range. Classical music gets very big very fast. So at higher volumes it can be a bit overwhelming. 2 Rel T5 or better for $2k, Or 2JL Audio E110 for $2k each the E112 for $2500 each gets you to 20hz, or last but not least is the KEF KF92 for $2k each that gets you to 11hz. I know two are better so you might be spending 4K. Skip the smaller KC62 due to the room size. As I said it’s all about the subs. I say buy one sub now and add the second later. Second- the Rogue Sphinx v2 if you don’t care about the phono for $1100 used. If you do care about the phono get the v3 for $1500 new. This thing is awesome. It has pre outs so it is ready for subs. It is tube/ class D hybrid. If you want full solid state NAD has integrated amps that have pre out for subs and you can get the BlueSound integrated or built in for $400. So $1600 will get you there or more if you want more features. I say save as much the money for the subs and speakers. You can buy the NAD 316bee for $500 but you can’t integrate the BlueSound. Probably under $1000 for amp and streaming. Next is a BlueSound NODE for $550 or $450 for the previous version while they last. The DACs in this thing is really good. The app is so good and easy to use. The speakers are really up to the listener and their room. I like KEFs R line. I would say just bookshelf speakers but then we need to add stands and those can cost a lot depending on the brand. If you stick with 7” or smaller drivers you get better imaging. Sometimes is hard for the speakers to disappear when they get too wide. I would prefer a three way but another brand that is awesome is the Revel line. Their wave guides on the tweeter almost makes room treatments unnecessary. For $2500 you can have the Revel Performa B106 bookshelf and matching stands. If you can swing it go to the M126be version with the beryllium tweeter with the latest wave guide. These were made for classical music. They will cost you an extra $2k. So $4500. Final note- Any thing can play loud with full range of sound 20hz to 20khz. You need good gear to play softly and still get 20hz to 20khz. I have tested all of these products and theories at my house. I am fortunate that this local Hifi store In the Chicagoland area lets me try gear out in my home: https://holmaudio.com/ They do have all of this in the store. I own JL Audio and REL subwoofers. They also have an upgrade program to future proof your system and choices. If you are a turntable guru they had a cool TT called a working Transcriptor Skeleton on display. This thing was so cool. I hope this helped. |
Mahler123 - Rouge Audio on Milwaukee? Do you mean Decibel Audio? Or is there a new dealer in town? That would be refreshing as the trend is going the other way! Decibel is a good source for Rogue gear. Maybe that's what you meant. Nice guys at Simply Stereo, hopefully they have their showroom sorted out now after the move. Haven't been there in about 6 mos. Saturday Audio is a good no-nonsense place with mostly mainstream gear. Try and get them to visit as many as they can to get a good feel. Luckily, Chicago and northern suburbs still have a decent number left. Then there is Axpona in October. Another way to get a good feel for what they might want. Really hoping it doesn't get shut down again! |
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I can't help myself... Marc-Antione Charpentier. Pronounced Shar-pon-tee-yay. Aside from me being a pedant, there were a lot good answers. They definitely should listen first and with in-walls... they can't. Enjoy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxZQ1ODN1iU |
op are they buying new gear at retail or are they willing to buy very good condition used? latter will get them better sounding gear, obviously, but may take some add’l effort and what cosmetic limitations or constraints do they have? if it were me in their situation i would buy the following: https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649742043-spendor-sp91-floor-stand-speakers/ https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649756198-hegel-h-120-integrated-amp-w-dac/ https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisab1hg-bluesound-node-2i-wireless-network-streamer-white-open-bo... use the node2i digital output to feed the digital input of the hegel plus a qobuz annual subscription 5 grand, done... for classical this system will make no apologies to any system up to 3x the cost imho |
Fredapplegate, no problem. The YouTube performance was beautiful, even on my IEMs. Maybe I should explore more classical... I don't think my friends want to replace their in-wall system with another in-wall system. My impression is that they are quite willing to chuck the in-wall for free-standing speakers. Sorry if that was not clear. I, too, am intrigued by the Rogue Sphinx amps. Haven't had the opportunity to test one yet, though. The comments and recommendations have been most helpful. Again, many thanks. |
those sp9/1 being floorstanders, go quite deep, and with proper placement allowing a little bass reinforcement from the room, they can be effectively full range for all but the most ardent bass lovers (40 hz -3b) http://ukhhsoc.torrens.org/makers/Spendor/SP9-1_hifinews_publicity_reprint.pdf having said that, most systems even with purportedly full range speakers can still benefit from well integrated subs for subterranean atmospherics... come back and let us know what your friends end up doing -- graduating from an in wall system certainly sets the bar low for them to pleased with any proper in room hifi rig :) |
@mahler123 Do people really believe that some systems are good for Classical and bad for everything else, and vice versa? I would hope that a good system should excel in all areas of Music my take on this is that yes, most good systems will play all musical genres pretty darned well, make them sound very good but all systems, even good ones, have specific strengths and weaknesses in the soundscape they present and volume level they play best at ... for classical music, especially symphonic music, benefits from speakers which have refined, not splashy treble -- and which presents music with scale, meaning large wide deep soundstaging, furthermore, there needs to be very natural and pure timbre other systems that do rock or modern popular music very well may have great visceral impact and speed and might be more forward in their treble presentation to allow the listener to hear layers and layers of multitrack detail some lovely single driver systems do smaller scale jazz and vocals very persuasively but could sound overwhelmed with hard driving rock for instance... and so on... |
Get the Dutch & Dutch 8c speaker system. Just add an iPad or laptop and you're done. Built-in amplification, DSP EQ, active crossover, etc, etc. Absolutely astounding sound. Some of the best I've ever heard at any price. Wonderful for acoustic and classical music. New retail at about $12k. When you find them used, around $10k. |
If your classical music friends are also regular orchestra concert goers, I think that whatever speakers they decide on purchasing, they should be speakers with good "imaging". It is probably a characteristic that they would not think of seeking out, but that characteristic would help more closely reproduce the experience of listening in a concert hall with which they may be familiar. The physical setup of most symphony orchestras varies very little from orchestra to orchestra, whereas the instruments on "Pop" albums are wherever the recording engineer chooses to "pan" them. Good imaging will showcase that reality. A comment about subwoofers in classical systems : I spent over 30 years as a performing classical musician and can honestly say that I never heard the magnitude of bass that many audiophiles consider to be appropriate on an orchestral recording ---- and I was sitting right next to the double bass section ! I think that the advent of the "Electric Bass" on pop recordings gave the impression to some that the same powerful bass response that an electric bass is capable of rendering at the twist of a knob is also possible on the traditional "stand up" contrabass typically found in a symphony orchestra. It is not possible ---- nor desirable. They are two distinctly different experiences. If the fore-mentioned classical music friends are simply wanting to wander about the house bathed in classical music [ as I can confess to doing every day ], their "in-wall" system should be fine, but if they want to go that extra step into our "Make Believe Concert Hall", they should spend some time researching the joys of entering the audiophile world. What a great hobby !! |
I have a season ticket package for the orchestra and it's true we don't get the magnitude of bass that audiophiles expect. But there are the passages performed by tympani which at times can sound like rolling thunder (high school tympanist here). Also, the contrabassoon reaches a lower octave that can be reproduced on a revealing HiFi system. There are these moments that I miss since I don't use a subwoofer with my floorstanders. Same with organ recordings, I know I'm missing what I heard at the concert hall. The tradeoff is that my speakers image so well and realistically I can enjoy the experience without hearing the lowest octaves. |