Synergy

It is not possible for myself to recommend a Cart' to add to a list, as I don't have a broad experience of Cart's used in domestic systems and residences, most are heard from the period when I attended commercial events and many of these are obsolete.

To help reign in the traits of the 20/20 that are known for being very revealing, and options that should not require too much monies look at the following:

1, The 20/20 Phono Pre' has load setting adjustment, speak to the producer and let them to suggest a setting to assist with High Frequency Roll Off, this might be all that is required.

2, I have had great success with 5mm Forex Foam used as a Platter Mat, this material in this thickness has kept all the wanted intricate detail from the recording, but added a Rich Tone at the expense of the Upper Frequencies. I am yet to meet anybody who experienced the 5mm in use across a variety of TT's, who are not impressed with the performance and bang for buck element. I got a batch of Forex Foam in 3mm and 5mm for approx' $30ish. I have been quite tempted to try this in 8mm as a result of the substantial jump in impression made between 3mm-5mm. 

3, A Signal Wire in a Cable produced with D.U.C.C Wire, has shown a Rich Tone in all the systems I have loaned such a Cable type to, a careful search could get a 6N Purity for $70 - $100+. 

4, A SUT 'will' add a Rich Tone at the expense of the highest frequencies and certain brands can Roll of the Highs very noticeably to make way for having a very weighty loose bass presence, a SUT loan would be the best practice for this method.         

" I always roll phono stages / arms / etc when trying to optimally match a new cartridge.. "

Certainly I understand try to match the tonearm/cartridge combinations and even a SUT ( I did it in the past till I found out the top Denon SUT that I changed only when the cartridge need it higher gain. ) but to change electronics ( as in this case the phono stage ) just to match the cartridge let me to ask: why? .

@rauliruegas Why not? It boils down to the very topic of this thread: synergy. Every phono stage I’ve used has its own distinct sonic signature & nuances. I still keep many on hand. They’re useful for a different perspective, an occasional change of pace, or a better match to certain cartridges. It’s not just "match warm with bright" either - it’s sometimes more complex and unpredictable than that (though not always). Multiply this by the complexity of matching SUTs or MC pre-preamps - and you have the countless possibilities worthy of an enjoyable hobby :)

Of course I still have favorites. Audio Research Reference 3SE’s Low Gain mode (paired with SUT) was stunning. VAC Renaissance SE (also with outboard SUT) has been my longtime reference. Herron VTPH-2A (also with SUT - see the pattern?) pairs super well to my Koetsu Blue Lace, but had me running out the room with Windfeld Ti. And Hagerman Trumpet Reference has a warm open sound, vaguely tape-like, that I quite enjoy. Now I also have the new Hagerman Piccolo Zero to experiment with current injection!

Folks on this forum will discuss cable rolling without batting an eye. I can assure anyone the changes from swapping phono stage are orders of magnitude more significant.

Dear @mulveling : I hope this time you can give me some explanation.

" I always roll phono stages / arms / etc when trying to optimally match a new cartridge.. "

Certainly I understand try to match the tonearm/cartridge combinations and even a SUT ( I did it in the past till I found out the top Denon SUT that I changed only when the cartridge need it higher gain. ) but to change electronics ( as in this case the phono stage ) just to match the cartridge let me to ask: why? .

Thank's in advance and kind regards,

R.

Although I find the Clearaudio cart to be superior to the Hanna in many ways,
I do find it a little bright and somewhat lacking in mellowness.
Can someone suggest a cart that would meet that criteria. It’s probably unrealistic but Im looking for something in the $1000-$1500 price range.

@mulveling  I know the Sumiko Pearwood very well, I have heard the Cart' used on all TT Drives, but mainly BD's. 

I have heard it mounted on a SME V/12 and 2 x Origin live TA's I missed it on the upper in range OL as a 12".

Most recently it was demo'd on a Vertier TT > TA.

On all occasions the Pearwood sang in a way that was very very appealing, as a Cart' with a Wood Body, it certainly keeps itself up the ladder and avoids the label of full bodied. A underpinning of a Rich Tone will be more accurate as a description. 

@mulveling 

I was looking at the Van den Hul. They have a very high compliance which I think may have been your problem. I have the Hyperion MR coming which is replacing the Platinum Signature which was very nice , but a bit too polite for me. I'm about to sell the Atlas, another long unfortunate story. So, I was looking at Van den Hul, the MSL Ultra Eminent EX, the Kuzma Car 50 and the EMT Novel Gold. I'm leaning towards the Ultra Eminent EX as it's 0.6 ohm impedance makes it a great match for my current mode phono stage and the build quality of MSL cartridges is excellent. The preamp I have coming has a high output phono stage in it designed by Dynavector. I will collect a few high output cartridges. The Soundsmith Voice will be one of them, the Nagaoka MP500 another and the third is open for argument. I am not sure about the Verismo for you. If it is anything like the MC Diamond it will be a great classical cartridge with loads of detail and a fine image but a bit shy in bass and slam. I'm keeping the Diamond because it does string quartets better than any cartridge I have ever owned. 

@mijostyn  I recently had an MSL Eminent Ex (briefly) and it was nice but just not for me. Somewhat echoing your Platinum experience, it was too polite and a bit boring. I was ready to continue trying other models in their line, but this put me off. I always roll phono stages / arms / etc when trying to optimally match a new cartridge, and got some combos which injected a bit of much needed life (best was Hagerman Trumpet Reference with the build-in JFET MC stage), but it still wasn't enough in the end. 

I got the MSL because I like my AirTight PC-7 so much, and thought I should try MSL's own line. And though there's similarity in the midrange, it ends there - the PC-7 is vastly more energetic, detailed, and fun to listen with (at times bordering on a bit too bright). The PC-7 has a more traditional coil arrangement (0.6mV at 7 ohms) and boron cantilever - not sure which of those makes the bigger difference. 7 ohms, though much higher than the MSL, is still sufficiently low for any reasonable SUT matching.  

The Van den Huls are fun (after break in), you should try one :) 
The high compliance was not an issue. I've added VPI arms here (both kinds of Fatboys, metal unipivots, and dual pivot) with sufficiently low mass (10g - 11g) to accommodate. The Colibri simply wasn't usable on ANY arm until the suspension broke in some. Then it went through an additional ~16 hours of being a sibilant nightmare mess (it's rare I have issue with sibilance). THEN it sounded great. Crimson XGW Strad was rough at the start too, but not nearly as bad. Frog Gold never had problems w/ tracking or sibilance from the start, but just sounded plain mediocre until it got around 30 hours (now I really like it too). 

I just picked up the brand new Hagerman Piccolo Zero to (finally) play with current injection instead of a SUT or JFET voltage stage. Worked GREAT with my Koetsu Blue Lace last night. I like it a lot. Not sure it will work as well with the Van den Hul (they seem to use a lot of coil for a given output) but I'll try there next. 

@mulveling The Hana Umami Blue is now on my radar to have a demo’ of along with the Verismo. I have been kindly offered a demi’ of the Verismo by a Gon Member in the UK, who also has an Ortofon Anna and A95. This is an invite I wish to revisit during 2024.

Ortofon through a subsidiary, are Market Leaders in Damper Technology, there is a huge resource for R&D into this area, as they are producing small parts for the medical industry. The Verismo has a Damper material that has been produced through this new market activity.

In my view, there might be a time when Ortofon become far advanced to their competitors when it comes to Damping Materials selection / options because this in house resource and ongoing R&D.

@pindac  Yes, Hana Blue is of great interest to me too! I (usually) love the midrange of Japanese makes. And thinking back, I haven't tried an alnico-based one (like Blue) before. The Blue's motor looks quite like a fancied-up Sumiko (Excel makes both), but then I haven't tried those either. Was VERY close to buying a Blue during the holiday sale but didn't push through (a RARE display of restraint on my part).

Ortofon's tech is indeed impressive, and their super compact MC motor with coils mounted inside a small neodymium magnet (ever since the Jubilee MC model) is quite unique and fascinating. It hasn't quite pulled together both the technical acuity and emotional musicality for me, but they're definitely getting better with time so I certainly don't write them off. Windfeld Ti and A90 both flirted with winning me over. I also like their rebuild policy and that they're not completely dependent on a single ageing cartridge master!

My own system has been unchanging for quite a few years, there is a lot going on within it that justifies this. Nearly every purchase made now is of a Bespoke Produced device, the only unchanged Item that is a Brand is a PW Transport, other Brands are modified and much used is commission built.  

In the past year+ the system has commenced to be packed away, in preparation for a substantial revamp of the home. All Packs are in the listening room, so it is not quite the same space I designed, but CD at present can still be used.

I am now toying with not buying in Temporary Accommodation but putting something together that meets the needs, with the intention this will become the listening space for my main system and something less intrusive is used in the house. There is a lot of materials available to me for free or Transport Cost only to help with this as a plan.

Most of my musical encounters are now had within the homes of others, and most get togethers do have a theme and agenda, for a proportion of the time allocation, with about 25% being solely for musical encounters or new musical encounters.

a self constrained “ better match “ = synergy….

Pindac is a hero and lifelong learner

….

A wise man said to me…. picking distortions you like is …..

Ummm… that was sincerely meant as a compliment to Pindac, Mijo, assuming you’re referring to my most recent post.

@lewm 

Looks whose talking! Experimenting is how you learn. 

@mulveling 

I was looking at the Van den Hul. They have a very high compliance which I think may have been your problem. I have the Hyperion MR coming which is replacing the Platinum Signature which was very nice , but a bit too polite for me. I'm about to sell the Atlas, another long unfortunate story. So, I was looking at Van den Hul, the MSL Ultra Eminent EX, the Kuzma Car 50 and the EMT Novel Gold. I'm leaning towards the Ultra Eminent EX as it's 0.6 ohm impedance makes it a great match for my current mode phono stage and the build quality of MSL cartridges is excellent. The preamp I have coming has a high output phono stage in it designed by Dynavector. I will collect a few high output cartridges. The Soundsmith Voice will be one of them, the Nagaoka MP500 another and the third is open for argument. I am not sure about the Verismo for you. If it is anything like the MC Diamond it will be a great classical cartridge with loads of detail and a fine image but a bit shy in bass and slam. I'm keeping the Diamond because it does string quartets better than any cartridge I have ever owned. 

@pindac 

As I told Mulveling above the Verismo is likely to be a wonderful classical cartridge, but if you listen to rock and/or jazz you might not like it. Ortofon's build quality is second to none. The most powerful well balanced cartridge I have had in my system was the Soundsmith Voice. I am about to hear the new Soundsmith Hyperion MR and will certainly report back. I am not so sure about rebuilds other than Soundsmith that rebuilds it's own cartridges and others for a very decent price. 

@rvpiano  It is these experiences like the one being shared between ourselves, that creates advocates for certain methods to have a musical encounter.

Buy New - have the Manufacturer receive the Cart at a later date, or have a Third Party Service receive the Cart' at a later date, it is not such a big deal, but it is to some and not to others. We are both in the 'not to others camp'. 

It does seem there is not the same stipulation when it comes to having a Cart' cleaned or evaluated for a Styli replacement or a damage, it seems a Third Party Service is an acceptable method for this.

I only want the Cart' to be used as a  tool to replay Albums, and it has proven to work exceptionally well or this role. 

@lewm As I have made known on this forum in the past, I gave up being insular, "man locked away in room with HiFi System" many many years past.

It has been this change of participation, from a lone enthusiast to a enthusiast, that has been participant in Social Activities / Group Activities in relation to my long term interest in Audio that has been the game changer.

Learning through experiences had is the only way I could discover a complete new direction for setting up my Audio experiences in my home. Not a Sales Ad, Media Review, or Forum Chit Chat, is a substitute for a ’sat in front off’ experience.

Add to the experiences had, the ones that others involved in social gatherings are willing to introduce you to, and things move on tenfold.

Do keep in mind my reference to my rebuilt Cart’ and comparisons is not new and was a revisit over the course of a few years, in conjunction with assessing a progression of a design for a Tonearm.

I do have upcoming experiences to share about TA Designs being evaluated through comparisons and Cart’ rebuilds on donor models to be used by myself and as a result of being invited to be demo’d ones that some friends have donors on standby for rebuild designs that are in the pipeline. I am assisting with purchasing one such donor model for a friend at this moment in time.

Then again I could have been uncommunicative, stayed at home, and educated myself by reading a few reviews and analysing the math about the latest whatever and let such alternate experiences pass me by.

@mulveling The Hana Umami Blue is now on my radar to have a demo’ of along with the Verismo. I have been kindly offered a demi’ of the Verismo by a Gon Member in the UK, who also has an Ortofon Anna and A95. This is an invite I wish to revisit during 2024.

Ortofon through a subsidiary, are Market Leaders in Damper Technology, there is a huge resource for R&D into this area, as they are producing small parts for the medical industry. The Verismo has a Damper material that has been produced through this new market activity.

In my view, there might be a time when Ortofon become far advanced to their competitors when it comes to Damping Materials selection / options because this in house resource and ongoing R&D.

Dear @mulveling :  "  I think it’s a side effect of suboptimal setup or system balance. We don’t deserve to torture ourselves just because a new component "should" be better! "

Other than cartridge/tonearm rigth set up the system balance it coverts in something as synergy that as mijos said is only that one link is covering/hiden other system link " errors ".

My take by first hand experiences tells me that if I introduce a true better new system link in the system we have we should be perfectly aware on it. This " perfectly aware " could be have its precense in different ways: could be that the system quality level performance was improved through what we listen in our sessions but could happens too that some or several of our LPs suddenly started to sound not very good because the new system link can shows us that those LPs that we though were very good recordings are not really good recordings for different reasons ( recording mistakes, not good recording mastering and the like ) but at the same time the LPs that sounded very good now sound excellent.

Yes, the new link altered the system balance and now " unfortunatelly " we are aware aof those LPs not very good ( as in the past ) kind of sound. In the other side a true better system link can shows hiden system " errors " and this new link function as a tool to make a system check-up..

Like it or not ( your " torture " ) a new true better system link that we just changed  is for us a system " discovery "/recordings in many ways.

Each one of us try to have a system balance that goes with our MUSIC/sound priorities. Try to look for a live MUSIC performance could be a really good target even by you that are " oriented "/accustom to what you like. Today after all those 5 years with Koetsu you are looking to change that " but like all Koetsus it leans very heavily to warm and full-bodied side of the spectrum  "..

I owned several Koetsu cartridges and the first one that really made " honor " to MUSIC reproduction was when appeared the Platinum one and my KRSP performs way different to the other pre-Platinum cartridges where that " heavely to warm " goes way lower but as my system gone and goes improving that " warm " just almost disappeared and I have a long listening session at my place with the Blue Lace.

Comparing your experiences with my experiences tells me that not necessary that that " warm " came mainly by the Koetsu but inside and around your system.

Now, I love the Colibri and when runs good  runs in an exceptional way and yes a little better than Koetsu and with excellent midrange. Remember that the midrange mainly depends of how good the system handled the bass range, it's here where we can or not have an excellent mid-range. Now, Koetsu and the Colibri are different performers and no till today does not exist the perfect cartridge in an universal sense because the objectivity need it for always losted against each one of us taste/subjectivity. That's why I said that could be a good target that our room/system have an approach of the live MUSIC balance and cartridges by it self just can't do it. Maybe some of us have to change ( we normally just don't want it . Nothing wrong with that. ) our MUSIC " approach " and if we don't do it will be really dificult to live in totally satisfaction with our room/system enjoying it as never before.

Yes, it is really hard to make a " radical " changes about but we have to try if we feel we need it to improve our MUSIC reproduction enjoyment.

R.

It seems I have developed the same illness. I am cartridge bouncing again trying to find that perfect cartridge. Problem is it may not exist and this gets expensive.

@mijostyn Thanks, and yes I’ve followed your cartridge impressions with great interest! SoundSmith was previously not of interest to me, but now it very much is thanks to your feedback.

I’ve been happy with Koetsu Blue Lace as my reference for 5 years. It’s decisively the best of my Koetsus (6), but like all Koetsus it leans very heavily to warm and full-bodied side of the spectrum (though it is more balanced than its siblings). So I’ve been searching for something on the detail / dynamic / sparkly side to complement it, and/or for that mythical cart with the "just right" balance of everything. And of course I ended up with a collection, even after selling several.

I like Benzes, they’re very well balanced, but not quite up to the level I’m seeking these days. I really like some Shelters, but they’ve gotten hard to source. Ortofons end up being too sterile (midrange) for me, though Windfeld Ti was a lot closer to what I want than the older version. And the A90 was good. It makes me want to try a Verismo.

I do very much like Van den Huls lately. Somehow the midrange doesn’t leave me wanting like Ortofons. My new-ish Colibri XGW Strad is turning into a great compliment to Koetsu. But they’re a NIGHTMARE at first. First cartridges I’ve owned where suspension break-in is an absolute necessity. The Colibri wouldn’t even stay in the groove at first. The slightest perturbation on a record would excite the suspension and it would start literally SHAKING. I tried everything - different tonearms, setup etc. Had to leave it resting on a record for a several nights before it started to behave.

I’m discovering an interesting phenomenon with my new setup.
Years ago when I heard the same records as I’m listening to now I was very involved with the music. As my set got better and better, I enjoyed them less and less. Is it possible that with improved analog technology more and more flaws were revealed along with improved sound. Now that I have a really good cartridge the sound is great but with those flaws removed, so I can again appreciate the music.

Just postulating a possibility.

If any piece of gear (not just cartridges) makes it harder to enjoy music (not just audiophile recordings), it’s GONE. That’s an absolute non-starter for me. And I don’t think it’s a trait of more revealing gear at all, actually. I think it’s a side effect of suboptimal setup or system balance. We don’t deserve to torture ourselves just because a new component "should" be better!

I’m discovering an interesting phenomenon with my new setup.   
Years ago when I heard the same records as I’m listening to now I was very involved with the music.  As my set got  better and better, I enjoyed them less and less. Is it possible that with improved analog technology more and more flaws were revealed along with improved sound.  Now that I have a really good cartridge the sound is great but with those flaws removed, so I can again appreciate the music.
 

Just postulating a possibility.

Pindac, the number and breadth of the experiments you find time and assistance to perform in search of your personal vinyl Nirvana do astonish me.

@pindac 

Very interesting!

@rvpiano Your is one more story worthwhile adding to the threads about Third Party Services treating a Cart' in need of a professional service.

I am an advocate of this methodology to have a Cart' overhauled and returned to service.   

My Rebuild, that is in use at present, was compared to another Cart' on a few occasions. The first being demo'd at very low hours, followed by approx' 100 hrs  and at approx' 200 hrs of usage.

The Cart' has been demo'd in this same system on later occasions as well, especially against other Cart's that are temporarily available.

The comparisons were 'all' on the same TT>TA>System to a Cart' from the same Brand, that was the Brands TOTR model from an earlier era, this Cart' had less than a few hundred hours usage, at the first comparison.

The rebuild shared some added components that the TOTR Cart' has in use for the design.

The voicing was very similar on all occasions, and my own Cart' certainly become a very worthy contender at the approaching 200 hrs of usage demo', this was when both Cart's Bass Notes were extending to almost identical frequencies and were decaying in a almost identical manner, it was the Mid's and Highs that were most noticeable for having a difference to their voicing.

Silver and Aucurum Coils / Boron and Beryllium Cantilevers, as well as the Cart's Body Mass, will be quickly identified as being responsible for voicing variation.

What was learnt is that Cart's can take time to find their true voice, and my build choices were seemingly very much in favour to all who were at the demo's.        

@lewm 

Great minds again. 

To me "synergy" when it comes to HiFi equipment is trying to fix an error with a corrective error. If you have a system that is too bright you fix the brightness, not add a dull whatever. Matching equipment is very important especially when it comes to amps and speakers, cartridges and tonearms and cartridges and phono stages. 

@mulveling 

It seems I have developed the same illness. I am cartridge bouncing again trying to find that perfect cartridge. Problem is it may not exist and this gets expensive. I am looking for a cartridge with the dynamics of the Atlas, the detail of the MC Diamond and the output of the Signature Platinum. Next on the list is the Hyperion MR followed by the MSL Ultra Eminent EX. The MC Diamond is a keeper because it is hands down the best at smaller classical music like string quartets. The best overall cartridge I have had in the system so far has been the Soundsmith Voice, so I have high hopes for the Hyperion.

Good for you RV. At this moment I am listening to Neville Marriner's  L'Estro Armonico on Decca (Argo) records. Vivaldi was the rock and roller of his day. Too many notes! They had the same complaint of Charlie Parker. Just music. 

Strictly speaking “synergy “ describes the condition where two factors are more than additive. Where 1+1 >2. Here I think the Virtuoso is just better. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

I’ve finally got the instrument (cartridge) to tackle my huge collection of LP’s.

I’m glad you ended up in a good spot again! Since the Virtuoso is MM and Hana ML is MC, I posit the fault here is just as likely attributed to your phono’s MC stage as the cartridge itself. As always our personal preferences weigh heavily on these choices. If you’re an audio subjectivist (like I am), synergy is a real thing. If you’re more of an objectivist, it’s not so much.

I buy & try a lot of cartridges, new and used. Can’t help myself. But whenever I see a newly rebuilt cartridge (usually SoundSmith or VAS) with "just 0 - 20 hours since rebuild", I automatically pass. It’s hard to get your money back from these rebuilds. One should leave it to potential buyers to choose how & where to rebuild. Ideally, you would send it in just for *assessment*, then accurately disclose condition in the sale - e.g. if original coils, suspension, and/or cantilever are intact, that helps a lot. That you kept the rebuilt Virtuoso and love it is an ideal result here :)

Since the Clearaudio cartridge broke in I’ve been listening to nothing but records. My system never sounded so good.

Thank you.

Not sure how much of a rock and roller RV is….his Classical posts are are very informative 

RV it is not Synergy. Cheap moving coil cartridges suck. Many of us believe there are MM and MI cartridges that are much superior in that price range. One of the very best cartridges I've had in my system was the Soundsmith Voice. It is a $3000 MI cartridge that is easily comparable to $8000 MC cartridges. If you are a rock and roller the Clearaudio Charisma is a fabulous cartridge. It has great bass and is dynamic as hell. On the less expensive side is the Nagaoka MP 500. You can ask @lewm about it. He has one. 

Moving magnet for the win. 

Cartridges, like speakers, are transducers (convert mechanical energy to sound) and have the biggest impact upon systems SQ. That's why listening to different cartridges/speakers with one's own system is important.