@hleeid congrats!The swarm system really is amazing in my room also.Like Tim,I also have room treatments and am expecting more panels via GIK tomorrow in order to add some diffusion.My room is small also,16x17.Anyways,good to hear you took the chance and are enjoying your music more than ever:-)
Swarming!
Hi folks!
Hope everyone is doing well.
I just got my Swarm Distributed Subwoofer Array from AudioKinesis hooked up.
Wow!
Pre Swarm setup:
Office (10 x 14 minus closets):
Amp: Hegel H190 integrated, Bryston P26 preamp, Ampzilla 2000 Second Edition monoblock amps
Speakers: KEF LS 50 non wireless, Ologe 5, Magnepan LRS
So two subs arrived yesterday (Saturday).
With two subs and the Dayton amp, I first hooked up one sub in various positions on the floor.
Listened to a variety of music.
Played around with the gain.
After four crawls and two more "just to confirm" crawls, I located and left Sub 1.
I’m still a newbie here so apologies in advance if the proper terminology escapes me when I try to describe all the ways everything (not just the bass) just sounds a lot better.
While it sounded better than three other subs I tried, the bass got less clear soon after the gain was up enough to hear the sub and especially when I moved around the room.
Now, with Sub 1 optimally (for now) placed, Sub 2 took the rest of the evening.
Sub 2 is ceiling facing (3" clearance from the ceiling) on a long shelf behind the listening position.
Spent a few hours sliding it left and right, flipping it over to fire the port in the opposite direction, etc.
Flipped it three times.
My back was starting to complain when I first got it up on the shelf. These things are heavy and awkward to remove from a high shelf when flipping over, not to mention the heart stopping, lose balance or grip on the sub, close call moments!
Decided to leave it in the corner where the shelf meets the right wall with the port facing the corner and wait for the other subs.
The improvement, though not significant, was more than noticeable at my listening position.
The improvement started to get significant when I rolled my chair around the room or got up and walked around.
Things sounded pretty good in more areas of the room.
I heard more quality out of the newly added quantity of bass.
The other two subs arrived today.
Duke at AudioKinesis suggested varying the heights of the ceiling facing sub(s) if possible as this will affect the vertical plane.
So,...
Subs 3 and 4 are also ceiling facing with a 6" clearance located in the left and right front corners of the room.
They are perched on steel wire shelving units allowing for one inch height increments. The added storage space with the shelves is a huge bonus!
Turned the music back on a little while ago.
What a mind blowing experience!
While the LRS made the room seem bigger, with all four subs firing, the Swarm seemed to add body, intensity and dynamics to the "bigger room". Just about anywhere in the room.
I can raise the gain much higher and actually enjoy the clarity and evenness in the added bass.
Bass is not lost at low volumes. I can actually hear more details in the bass without needing to raise the volume.
Absolutely love the LRS! Thought the bass was pretty good. Didn’t hit like the LS 50s but seemed more than adequate.
But after a satisfactory gain setting and listening with the Swarm added, I got up and turned the gain all the way down and listened to just the LRS.
The Swarm added such a high quality and intense "kick" to the low end that just went away.
This got me out of my chair again to bring the gain back up.
A remote for the Dayton sure would be great!
I just can’t imagine listening to my system without this really cool subwoofer solution!
Limited to a small room?
Yes, there are four sizeable subs and an additional amp to place.
I thought there was no way that would work in such a small 10’ x 14’room.
Why four subs?
For anyone not familiar with the Distributed Bass Array concept, search through these threads.
There are numerous postings on this by some really knowledgeable people. (millercarbon and noble100, especially)
With three of the subs up high, the fourth sub is the only additional piece taking up floor space.
It’s been only about 2 hours listening with the Swarm in place.
With just the first sub placed via crawling and the other three just put in place, everything sounds like my system had a major upgrade!
It’s actually quite shocking! Seriously.
Excited to experiment with the subwoofer heights, different amps and also with the LS 50s and Ologe 5s.
Kodus to Duke at AudioKinesis for building such an effective, simple and flexible subwoofer solution!
These things actually look pretty cool too! Zero WAF issues!
Stay safe and healthy everyone!
Hope everyone is doing well.
I just got my Swarm Distributed Subwoofer Array from AudioKinesis hooked up.
Wow!
Pre Swarm setup:
Office (10 x 14 minus closets):
Amp: Hegel H190 integrated, Bryston P26 preamp, Ampzilla 2000 Second Edition monoblock amps
Speakers: KEF LS 50 non wireless, Ologe 5, Magnepan LRS
So two subs arrived yesterday (Saturday).
With two subs and the Dayton amp, I first hooked up one sub in various positions on the floor.
Listened to a variety of music.
Played around with the gain.
After four crawls and two more "just to confirm" crawls, I located and left Sub 1.
I’m still a newbie here so apologies in advance if the proper terminology escapes me when I try to describe all the ways everything (not just the bass) just sounds a lot better.
While it sounded better than three other subs I tried, the bass got less clear soon after the gain was up enough to hear the sub and especially when I moved around the room.
Now, with Sub 1 optimally (for now) placed, Sub 2 took the rest of the evening.
Sub 2 is ceiling facing (3" clearance from the ceiling) on a long shelf behind the listening position.
Spent a few hours sliding it left and right, flipping it over to fire the port in the opposite direction, etc.
Flipped it three times.
My back was starting to complain when I first got it up on the shelf. These things are heavy and awkward to remove from a high shelf when flipping over, not to mention the heart stopping, lose balance or grip on the sub, close call moments!
Decided to leave it in the corner where the shelf meets the right wall with the port facing the corner and wait for the other subs.
The improvement, though not significant, was more than noticeable at my listening position.
The improvement started to get significant when I rolled my chair around the room or got up and walked around.
Things sounded pretty good in more areas of the room.
I heard more quality out of the newly added quantity of bass.
The other two subs arrived today.
Duke at AudioKinesis suggested varying the heights of the ceiling facing sub(s) if possible as this will affect the vertical plane.
So,...
Subs 3 and 4 are also ceiling facing with a 6" clearance located in the left and right front corners of the room.
They are perched on steel wire shelving units allowing for one inch height increments. The added storage space with the shelves is a huge bonus!
Turned the music back on a little while ago.
What a mind blowing experience!
While the LRS made the room seem bigger, with all four subs firing, the Swarm seemed to add body, intensity and dynamics to the "bigger room". Just about anywhere in the room.
I can raise the gain much higher and actually enjoy the clarity and evenness in the added bass.
Bass is not lost at low volumes. I can actually hear more details in the bass without needing to raise the volume.
Absolutely love the LRS! Thought the bass was pretty good. Didn’t hit like the LS 50s but seemed more than adequate.
But after a satisfactory gain setting and listening with the Swarm added, I got up and turned the gain all the way down and listened to just the LRS.
The Swarm added such a high quality and intense "kick" to the low end that just went away.
This got me out of my chair again to bring the gain back up.
A remote for the Dayton sure would be great!
I just can’t imagine listening to my system without this really cool subwoofer solution!
Limited to a small room?
Yes, there are four sizeable subs and an additional amp to place.
I thought there was no way that would work in such a small 10’ x 14’room.
Why four subs?
For anyone not familiar with the Distributed Bass Array concept, search through these threads.
There are numerous postings on this by some really knowledgeable people. (millercarbon and noble100, especially)
With three of the subs up high, the fourth sub is the only additional piece taking up floor space.
It’s been only about 2 hours listening with the Swarm in place.
With just the first sub placed via crawling and the other three just put in place, everything sounds like my system had a major upgrade!
It’s actually quite shocking! Seriously.
Excited to experiment with the subwoofer heights, different amps and also with the LS 50s and Ologe 5s.
Kodus to Duke at AudioKinesis for building such an effective, simple and flexible subwoofer solution!
These things actually look pretty cool too! Zero WAF issues!
Stay safe and healthy everyone!
71 responses Add your response
@noble100 - Hey Tim! I just reviewed the Swarm experiments you shared with me. I faced the 3 ceiling facing subs towards their respective walls in accordance with Experiment #2. I also slid the sub on the shelf away from the corner and faced it against the wall. Can't put my finger on it but can definitively hear increased clarity (probably from pulling one sub from the corner and facing it and the other two towards the walls) on some bass heavy tracks. Also, I have experimented staggering the vertical heights of the ceiling facing subs. FWIW - in my 10' x 14' minus closets space, lowering the front left and right ceiling facing subs to about 6' and 4' respectively yields greater ambiance, balance and coherence in a larger soundstage. What a remarkably simple, straightforward solution to achieving SOTA bass augmentation! I have had nothing but excellent results Swarming with 3 significantly different main speakers (Magnepan LRS, Ologe 5 and KEF LS 50s). Detractors - detract all you want. But I will bet just about anything that all it takes is an honest listening session to convert you or any detractor to hear and appreciate the logic of a properly set up DBA. Stay safe and healthy everyone! |
Hello lemonhaze, You’re correct, that silver unit atop the Oppo is a Lumin D2 dac/streamer. The black box to the right of the Oppo is a 20 TB Synology hard drive storage unit I use with it along with an IPad, running the Lumin app as the GUI and remote. When I walked into a local dealer, I was originally intending to buy a Bluenote but, after demoing both on a Levinson 5805 integrated and Magico A3 speakers, I definitely thought the Lumin’s GUI and sound quality were better. The Lumin’s a bit more money but l thought it was worth it. it’s been a really good addition to my system. Later, Tim |
Earl Geddes has been a longtime proponent of multiple subs. There are a few other enlightened individuals who agree but it seems strange that this system is not more widely adopted. I assisted a good friend with set up of 3 subs in an awkward room and when we eventually found the best placement was knocked out with the result. I later took over a tiny pair of bookshelf speakers, adjusted the settings and slowly turned up the volume. Well talk about a WOW moment. We heard what could easily have been mistaken for a pair of large floorstanders, only thing is a single pair of speakers, which can be explained, can not produce the kind of bass we were hearing. If I high-passed the little speakers, relieving them of the bottom 2 octaves they would have been even better. Should anyone reading this wonder if bass trapping is necessary, it is, but the tiny foam things from Amazon or wherever simply can not, regardless of what they claim, absorb low frequencies. Unfortunately physics demand they be rather large. My recently installed traps are 900mm (35.5") across and run from floor to ceiling. I have measured the room and notice that I probably need more. Fortunately my wife actively encourages me. Hi noble100, your room looks great. Your pics show a unit sitting on top of the Oppo which appears to be a streamer. May I ask what it is you have there and how you came to choose it? |
Hello Ozzy, I’m still waiting for your invite to movie night, sir! You know what they say about subs; ....4 subs sound and perform about twice as well as 2 subs and 8 subs are, as they say, good grounds for divorce. You’ve created the best, and likely most expensive, implementation of the DBA concept that I’m yet aware of. Congrats, Tim |
I have been using 4 JL Audio F-113 subs for quite a while now. But, I never thought about removing the corner ASC Bass traps. I may try it soon just to see what they do bring to the sound. BTW, my Hometheater adds another 4 subs with the bypass through on my preamp that makes 8 subs when playing movies! ozzy |
Swarm tuning update: I switched my main speakers from the LRS to the Ologe 5 this morning. Sensitivity and frequency response ratings are close (Ologe 5: 89db LRS: 86db), and both reach down to about 50Hz. However, at similar volume levels, the LRS required noticeably less gain than the Ologe 5 but a bit higher frequency cutoff. The LRS also required more frequent gain adjustments depending on volume and the type of music playing. Couldn’t stop wearing out the gain knob a/b testing again with the Ologe 5! Same incredible improvement as with the LRS! Room "sounded" bigger with more body, energy and dynamics. And not just in terms of bass. The 3 tweeter array on the Ologe 5 probably helped widen the on axis area more than the LRS. As with the LRS, the Swarm made the room a bit bigger but fuller and more dynamic. Two very positive and significant results with two very different speakers! |
Thanks Tim! Good to hear your positive experience with room treatments. I have some "starter" bass traps from Arrowzoom and some acoustical insulation, DIY frame pieces etc. in the garage. Was so impressed with the Swarm that I didn't feel the urgency in deploying any of those. Guess I'll get around to completing my room treatment project a little sooner. |
Hello Hans/hleeid, Congratulations and welcome to the 4-sub DBA club! The AK Swarm and 4-sub DBA concept works so incredibly well that it almost seems like magic, especially how it works in virtually any room and with any pair of main speakers. Of course it’s actually the opposite of magic, since the whole concept is based on physics, scientifically proven acoustic principles and has been consistently empirically validated. Anecdotally, I had never heard of an instance of the 4-sub Swarm or custom DBA system not working in a room or system until the owner of Audio Kinesis, Duke Lejeune, stated he had encountered a couple of rooms in which the system initially did not work successfully.. But he stated he was able to make both of these systems function properly after specific minor adjustments. Your room was a good test of the concept since your room had insufficient floor space to accommodate the 4 relatively small Swarm subs. But Duke was even able to make the concept work in your floor space challenged room by suggesting you raise 3 of the 4 subs well above the floor, Kudos to Duke for knowing of and suggesting such a unique and effective solution. And kudos to you, Hans, for having the good sense to research the concept and having the curiosity as well as the spirit of adventure to give it a try. Your reactions to how amazingly well this concept works reminds me of my own reactions when I first experienced the bass results and seamless integration with my main speakers in my room over 5 years ago; a combination of disbelief, relief, excitement and audio bliss. Very satisfying and I can attest that these feelings are enduring. As to the questions concerning bass traps and room treatments, I initially had none in my room and just recently installed Stacked GiK bass traps (called TriTraps) in all 4 corners as well as a balance of GIK absorption and diffusion panels scattered about my room. With the added room treatments and bass traps, my perceptions are that the bass sounds equally as excellent but the midrange, treble and imaging sounding more detailed while at the same time sounding more relaxed, realistic and natural. My opinion is that the 4-sub DBA concept’s bass response will not be negatively affected by the use of bass traps or room treatments in my room, ymmv. Congrats and enjoy, Tim |
The SVS 3000 Sb swarm is stunning at $3600 for the 4 and energize to a true 18 hz speak about pressurizing a room. my friend says no going back. my brother having $$ has 4 of the SVS 16 ultra subs in each corner the impact is close to a live explosion . And the SVS has a excellent interface app to adjust the subs,as well as other programs. The Audio Kinesis swarm is much more user friendly for med sized rooms and Lower priced. |
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I received my Swarm system last week with 2 Dayton amps but unfortunately my room isn’t ready due to the Covid and contractors Duke’s painter finished them in a furniture grade finish. Windy City color (kinda a greenish gray ) in a Benjamin Moore pearl finish. Absolutely gorgeous IF they sound anything like they look , I will be ecstatic!! |
@b_limo Thanks! I haven't gotten to staggering the shelf mounted sub heights. But the shelf units I got are the really heavy duty industrial ones. I have them each bolted to a side wall. Never heard of the
aurelex subdude. Just looked it up. Appreciate the tip! Initial overall impressions are that the bass can be augmented to levels that would otherwise muddy everything using just one or two subs. I can raise the gain higher than normal to bring out certain cello passages without adversely affecting the mids and highs. Having just conducted listening tests with one, two and finally four subs, I can truly attest to the audible differences. Even a newbie like me can hear the incredible improvements. Interesting point: My fiance asked: Why not just raise the bass on an equalizer?". I told her to have a seat and listen as I first raised the gain on the Dayton amp (Swarm). I then lowered the gain all the way and turned up the bass on the equalizer. Less than 30 seconds go by and I didn't have to say a word. I heard her loudly say: "Switch it back please! That was hurting my ears!" The LRS sound really awesome now with the Swarm. I just switched out the LRS and hooked up my Ologe 5s. Excited to see how they sound with the Swarm. |
Awesome! Congratulations 😁. I have had an absolute horrid time ever trying to get 1 sub to sound good in my set-ups. For some reason I’ve been able to set up 2 different friends systems with only 1 sub that sound great. My brothers setup uses 2 and thats ok, better than 1. Anyhow, once you have heard well integrated subs, its hard to not want them. I have never heard a swarm set-up but I am really wanting to get one some day. It seems like everyone who has tried it loves it. You brought up an interesting point that I have been giving some thought to lately, and that is do you achieve smoother response with some subs at different heights / planes within the room. Apparently you do! And last, if you have any of your subwoofers on one of those somewhat flimsy wire shelfs, you should look into using an aurelex subdude under those! Happy Listenin’ |
Congratulations! Welcome to the club. Its a hard one to get into. First you have to understand a whole bunch of stuff that is actually not all that hard to follow except that it is so different than the accepted wisdom parroted dogmatically over and over again by almost everyone. If you actually do it though then the hardest thing to get your mind around is that it really does work so much better than would even seem possible. As you now know, it does! Its crazy because in most other things it is near impossible to have really state of the art performance, and even if you do it cost a small fortune. With bass however you can have true state of the art performance for like $3k. Not peanuts, but barely entry level in terms of speakers. You already made the plunge so this might be a little late but here's a neat video I only just discovered and you will notice he mentions a couple points you brought up. Quality bass has a powerful influence on our perception of the whole system quality. So just what you said. Only with studies to back it up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McN2AygDMtQ Sounds like you already have it pretty well dialed in. Only advice I would give, listen to a lot of different stuff, consider carefully, and make any level changes very small. Whatever you think, make it less. Other than that sit back and enjoy the ride. You earned it! |