Subwoofers - Final Thoughts with Martin Logan ESL 13A

@g2the2nd lol, though I think I could use some supple subs...

@audphile1  : Wilson Wamm Master Subsonic goes from 10hz to 100hz using class A amplifier and Wilson has on sale active croosovers.-

What do you think of this vintage Krell:

Krell Master Reference Subwoofer Subwoofers user reviews : 4.5 out of 5 - 4 reviews - audioreview.com

R.

@audphile1   : " No speaker is perfect. " 

You are rigth and not onlyabout speakers but no one audio home system item is perfect due that always it has trade-offs and is our personal choice which trade offs we take /took.

R.

@navyachts : " And would they be on the inside or the outside on the FL/FR speakers? "

With all respect that is a question you don’t need to make due that even if the other gentleman could has the same ML model as you the ROOM and probably the whole system chain linksand his preferences are different ( even the wife, if any. ).

Today subs come with a true advanced DSP electronic/software tool to integrates subs to almost any speaker room/system.

Look, my Velodyne models ( old ones. ) has no those tools and I took 1+ year to achieve where I’am today. I tested/try: behind the speakers, at side of the speakers, back between speakers, front between speakers.

My room is an inverted L shape so one of the speakers has not a near side wall. Finally the Velodyne’s are seated exactly near and in front of each speaker and subs are side firing ( the 15" woofers. ) in between , clearly not an orthodox positions

Btw, phase at 180º .

R.

Dear firends all of you: We have to remdember that MUSIC belongs to the bass range and as better our room/system bass management as better the whole quality levels of the Room/system reproduction.

Other issue is that MUSIC starts ( rithm, dynamic power, natural color, natural agresiveness and brihtness, etc, etc,, nuances, ) with a fast TRANSIENT RESPONSE where the first " beat "in any instrument is the one that will makes a " rigth " harmonics development in all frequency ranges.

So name of the MUSIC is TR and only subwoofers can do it in the bass low range.

R.

@rauliruegas +1 & AMEN!

@ricred1 I feel the need to sincerely apologize to you yet again - and to thank you for answering my question.

My apologies

M 

I have never understood the preoccupation with bass. For half a century we didn’t even have subs. When you listen to a live band do you experience the bass is missing? I just don’t get it. I have ML’s, and I have more bass than I need. This without a sub. End rant. 

@coltrane1 Sorry then about my post, you're probably right!

If you don't mind me asking, what model MLs do you have? 

Your system isn't virtual here.

One option that doesn’t get much airplay on Audiogon is Perlisten. The company does advertise in the glossies, but rarely offers its products for review, so it’s not surprising that it flies under most audiophiles’ radar. However, when Perlistens are evaluated by a credible reviewer, the raves are almost embarrasing. See the last link below.

The reason I recommend them for use with an electrostatic is their reputation for speed, transient response, detail, and transparency. Having spent decades sub-rolling my vintage Quad ESLs, I’m no stranger to how tricky it can be to extend the low end of an electrostat.

So it strikes me that even a pair of Perlisten’s entry-level R10S (physically smaller than you’d think and reasonably priced at $2K per) might be a great match for a ML stat. 15" cube, 45lbs, sub-20Hz extension. Downside: no DSP / app.

https://www.avforums.com/reviews/perlisten-audio-d15s-subwoofer-review.21554/

https://www.perlistenaudio.com/products/r10s/#techspecs

Oh, and then there’s this:

https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/perlisten-d215s

@cundare2 Interesting, thanks. I just don’t know if the R10s are enough for my 500 sq. ft space and moving up the line to the R12s in a pretty significant price jump. Yikes!

Good question to ask a dealer. I know that Bliss HiFi in MN handles the line; and the owner Juan is pretty sharp & always happy to answer questions via email or phone.

One reason why they may work is that even the R10 has pretty significant bass boost below 25ish Hz. In fact, I’m seriously thinking of upgrading my Martin Logan sub with a couple of these little guys myself (my room is only half the size of yours, however).

Btw, I obviously misspoke in my last message. Perlisten subs do have a configurable DSP.  What I was thinking of is that, unlike ML models, they don’t have room-correction functionality. So you have to manually tune the DSP using the sub’s buit-in parametric EQ,

@navyachts a thought just popped in my head…

When I had the Montis I ran them first with Rogue ST100 amplifier driven by RP1 and later by RP5 and then finally by Pass XP-12. Every one of these preamps had different capabilities in the lower registers. I then upgraded from ST100 to Pass XA30.8 for better synergy with the XP-12. The bass output was so prominent that I actually had to dial the bass down a notch or two on the back of the Montis bass cabinets. 
I know the MLs have amplified bass modules but the amp’s or preamp’s sound signature comes thru even in the bass.

I also just recently had Coda CSiB V1 integrated which is the same amp as the No.8 you’re using in your system. This was with my Wilsons but let’s forget that for a second. The bass with Coda V1 is quiet different from pretty much any amp I owned before. It is fast, tuneful and articulate. Compared to Pass amps it’s definitely leaner. I believe it’s due to the amp design (no or low feedback).

It is possible that what you’re experiencing is related to the way your Coda amp presents the lower registers. I’m not familiar with what the Coda preamps sound like so I may be completely off track here. Add to this the fact that the ML panels are pretty power hungry and can take toll on the amplifier, it could be something worth exploring. Coda amps are high current and have capability to drive your speakers without issues, however, I would run this by Doug Dale and get his take on it. Doug can upgrade the V1 to V2 or V3 which would give you less Class A power but potentially more “slam” in the bass. Wild thought but I wouldn’t cross it off the list.

As a side note, I really liked the Coda integrated and liked its bass. But it’s all subjective. You may be craving more oomph and the V2 or V3 might fix that for you

@audphile1 It's funny, I had a Coda CSiB V3 with my Martin Logan Spires. The capacitors all blew so I sent it into Doug, and he recommended changing it to V1. The Spires had so much bass with V1 I didn't need subwoofers.

I also asked him about integrated and separates and he said the Coda 8 and the CB pre are identical in sound to the CSiB. I did not ask him about more bass with V2 or V3 over V1, but I will do so. Thanks for the thought. 

On a side mote, my wife, who has much better ear for music than I, sat down and listened to a bunch of music switching quickly between the Aurender N200 and the Bricasti M1's network card and could hear little difference between the two. Sometimes even giving the Bricasti the edge. The N200 is a wonderful piece and I've always been a separates kinda guy, but the Bricasti is an amazing piece of equipment which handles all these functions so well and being so pleased with the sound I sold the N200 last night.

@navyachts cool. Can you try the Bricasti direct into the amp using the M1S2 preamp section? See if any difference in bass between it and the coda pre?

@audphile1I tried that when I first got the M1 and thought the Coda sounded better but maybe the M1 has broken in now so I'm using it as again as my pre and have the Coda CB for sale.

Couple of other things: I asked OCD Mikey what his favorite sub-woofer set up was and said "no subwoofers" ha, ha, ha!

And, about you Wilsons, how do you compare their box sound compared to your old ESLs (if you can remember?)

My wife and I did a tour off a bunch of audio shops a few years back and listened to numerous speakers (mostly boxed) even demoing a couple of our favorites back at home, ditching them all for the MLs. There was a set of Wilsons playing in the background at one of those places we were at, and they sounded awesome, but I didn’t ask for a listen as they were way over my budget.

@audphile1 This is what piqued my interest in the M1 as a network player:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/bricasti-m1-m5-m12-network-player-my-review-w-oem-response-brian

@navyachts yes I remember since I got the Wilsons right after I sold the MLs. It’s a completely different sound. The MLs were slightly warmer and darker sounding than the Wilsons. The Sabrinas are more open, more detailed and more realistic especially with music involving drums. It’s a more “live” sound than the MLs. Very transparent but not bright. Great clarity. 
Few items to note with Wilson speakers - they require top notch high current amplification, they are very sensitive to room acoustics and placement. But once properly setup they excel at every style of music vs. the MLs that favor vocals, jazz and acoustic music. 

Well you already sold your N200 so any conversation on the Bricasti network renderer vs. N200 is moot. But in any case….
The discussion you referenced is old and doesn’t apply to M1S2, M3 and M21. The newer generation of the Bricasti DACs have higher jitter on the network renderer than the previous M1SE. That’s one. Two - with the network renderer you’re limited to running Mconnect or Roon. The Mconnect option always sounded more “digital” to me. Roon sounded better but in a long run its rolled off and clinical/sterile sounding compared to Aurender. It was identical to Lumin U1 Mini though, and that streamer retailed for around $2,000 new…close to what Bricasti charges for their network option ($1500 if I’m not mistaken). One other thing - quickly switching back and forth between the Bricasti network card and Aurender may not reveal all of the differences you would notice if you spent a good amount of time listening to network card. As a matter of fact any A/B comparison done quickly is not a good way to do it regardless of what’s being compared, DACs, streamers, preamps, cables, etc.

Sometimes you won’t realize what’s missing until you spend time with one component before you reintroduce the other. Good news is you can always buy an N200 or any other dedicated streamer, or preamp. It’s all part of the game! Lol

@audphile1 +1!

Funnily enough, I just sold my Roon Nucleus, so using JRiver currently. Roon has a nicer user interface, that’s for sure, but I need to play around a some more and try to figure things out a bit better. 

Hey, the N200 was great, but I'm not sure, in my case, it was worth more than what I sold it for great.

I will get back to you when Doug Dale comments on the V configurations and their bass components.

Thanks for all the comments, have a grand weekend!

I have never understood the preoccupation with bass. For half a century we didn’t even have subs. When you listen to a live band do you experience the bass is missing? I just don’t get it. I have ML’s, and I have more bass than I need. This without a sub. End rant. 

You made the point precisely.  Not all home speakers are capable of reproducing bass the way you experience amplified instruments at a live show.  Most aren't.  Having multiple subwoofers gets you closer to recreating that experience and the visceral feel of a live kick drum or other deep bass notes.

@navyachts cool. May be worth giving Audirvana a try as well for comparison. 

@big_greg +1 

@audphile1 thanks

@navyachts,

https://www.newaudiovideo.com/audio-c-35/subwoofers-c-35_34/velodyne-digital-drive-plus-10-inch-subwooferblackeach-p-9555.html?srsltid=AfmBOoobD9vNMPMO66ZjMOHYlJZIstwQ9pxspHS76z-4c1gnTCFS2v52

After over a decade still one of the simplest and quickest remote control subwoofer Auto Optimization with six customizable presets while the main system remains in analog.

Manual adjustability of all fourteen subwoofer related parameters including the drag and drop Frequency Response and Parameters Screen using a TV or laptop. Ability to control multiple subs and integrate with ANY speaker.

Google: Velodyne DD-Plus manual for questions, Velodyne Acoustics, Lidar and David Hall for background. Enjoy.

@m-db I would LOVE to have that subwoofer, but even at that discounted price, two of them would be WAY over my budget, but thank you!

@audphile1 

I mention to Doug Dale about my old MLs having more bass and here is his response regarding going to V2 or V3.

"Might be the different MLs.  If you are the original owner of the #8 we can switch to a V2 for free (minus shipping).  We are changing the V3 at this time but could do that as well when we receive our next shipment of caps".

Didn't really answer the question, so I asked again and he hasn't responded. Having dealt with him many times over the years, I've noticed he is a man of few words.

I had an awesome conversation with Doug over the phone. Great guy. Told me few funny stories. I think he’s more of a phone conversation type dude and email might not be his favorite form of communication .

As the title suggests, my final thoughts are that I am going to live without subwoofers, at least for now.

Thanks to all that contributed here, as always, I have learned a lot through from the group.

Happy Holidays to you all and your families!

Happy Holidays to you too @navyachts !

Re subs....

IF you're Really 'into' a sub....and are willing to 'get extreme' 'bout it.....

Here.

Live far away from anyone and anything that would give a blip over what you do.

Pick the wall....and rebuild it. Amps? AC power? The divorce? *LOL*

https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=1151213409899414&set=pcb.1151227916564630

@asvjerry I want a Swarm!  https://fb.watch/wvYmviOkLE/

https://www.danleysoundlabs.com/the-matterhorn/

Video button at the bottom, enjoy.   

@m-db for the military? Our tax dollars hard at work...lol!

@m-db .....that dolt at 8:30? Under that plastic sheeting at 0:30....

Poor devil.....*raucous laughter prior to projectile vomiting....*

@navyachts ....see my comment to another startled soul at the noted FB link.....
The 'testing 3.2,1 *foom* prototypes were installed on the dark side of...
Yup, Right....tossed it into Earth and saved the Vogons' the trouble....😏😎

Thoroughly pissed Everyone Off getting offed like that....😒 

Silly twits are still at it.....Next project is the Galactic Hammer Array....The GHA DAM Amps are driven by black hole excrement....

Ever consider vacating a small galaxy?

Don't....so they won't....pricks just don't go away, nay.....

Wow....5 more posts 'till the test....*L* ;)

@navyachts, What does anybody really know, but hell yeah.

Dear @big_greg    " For half a century we didn’t even have subs. When you listen to a live band do you experience the bass is missing? #"

and you posted this in your answer to that post:

"" You made the point precisely.  "

Well, he as you have a wide miunderstood about and are away fo at least a " mile ":

"

In one of my Ask Paul video questions, I was asked how far back subwoofers go in 2-channel audio. The community member had only become aware of subs as they related to home theater.

Of course, many readers of Paul's Post know subs date back much further than home theater.

From Wikipedia: In September 1964, Raymon Dones received the first patent for a subwoofer specifically designed to augment the low-frequency range of modern stereo systems (US patent 3150739). Able to reproduce distortion-free low frequencies down to 15 Hz, a specific objective of Dones's invention was to provide portable sound enclosures capable of high fidelity reproduction of low-frequency sound waves without giving an audible indication of the direction from which they emanated. Dones's loudspeaker was marketed in the US under the trade name "The Octavium" from the early 1960s to the mid-1970s. The Octavium was utilized by several recording artists of that era, most notably the Grateful Dead.

Two years later, in 1966, my former partner in Genesis Technologies and the co-founder of Infinity, Arnie Nudell, along with his airline pilot friend, Carry Christie, launched the second and perhaps most important subwoofer of its time, the Infinity Servo woofer, based on an 18" Cerwin Vega driver.

My experience with a subwoofer began a few years later when I was first introduced to a true high-end audio system. There, in the living room of local audiophile Norm Little, was serial numbers 1 and 2 of aerospace engineer Eugene J. "Gene" Czerwinski's creation, a pair of 18" Cerwin-Vega subwoofers capable of producing 130 dB at 30 Hz, an astonishing level during its time (or any time).

I suppose I have never gotten over the experience of hearing for the first time, all there is in the recordings, including subsonics.

Until you hear it all, you're not going to know what true high-end is.  "

"""" The first home subwoofer was developed during the 1960s by Ken Kreisel, the former president of the Miller & Kreisel Sound Corporation in Los Angeles. When Kreisel's business partner, Jonas Miller, who owned a high-end audio store in Los Angeles, told Kreisel that some purchasers of the store's high-end electrostatic speakers had complained about a lack of bass response in the electrostatics, Kreisel designed a powered woofer that would reproduce only those frequencies that were too low for the electrostatic speakers to convey. Infinity's full range electrostatic speaker system that was developed during the 1960s also used a woofer to cover the lower frequency range that its electrostatic arrays did not handle adequately.

The first use of a subwoofer in a recording session was in 1973 for mixing the Steely Dan album Pretzel Logic when recording engineer Roger Nichols arranged for Kreisel to bring a prototype of his subwoofer to Village Recorders. Further design modifications were made by Kreisel over the next ten years, and in the 1970s and 1980s by engineer John P. D'Arcy; record producer Daniel Levitin served as a consultant and "golden ears" for the design of the crossover network (used to partition the frequency spectrum so that the subwoofer would not attempt to reproduce frequencies too high for its effective range, and so that the main speakers would not need to handle frequencies too low for their effective range).

Subwoofers received a great deal of publicity in 1974 with the movie Earthquake which was released in Sensurround. Initially installed in 17 U.S. theaters, the Sensurround system used large subwoofers which were driven by racks of 500 watt amplifiers which were triggered by control tones printed on one of the audio tracks on the film. Four of the subwoofers were positioned in front of the audience under (or behind) the film screen and two more were placed together at the rear of the audience on a platform. Powerful noise energy in the range of 5 Hz to 40 Hz was generated at the level of 110-120 dB(SPL). The new low frequency entertainment method helped the film become a box office success. More Sensurround systems were assembled and installed. By 1976 there were almost 300 Sensurround systems leapfrogging through select theaters. Other films to use the effect include the WW II naval battle epic Midway in 1976 and Rollercoaster in 1977.

With the advent of the compact cassette and consumer digital audio formats, the reproduction of deep, loud bass was no longer limited by the ability of a phonograph record stylus to track a groove. It became possible to add more low frequency content to recordings. Home subwoofers grew in popularity, as they were easy to add to existing multimedia speaker setups and they were easy to position or hide.  """"

I'm almost sure that both of you never heard about Hartley subs.

tw, multiple subwoofers in an home system is only for HT in a two only stereo audio home system and for one seat position no one in any room needs more than two true self powered subs integrated to the room/main speakers through a high pass filter crossover..

R.

I forgot:

https://www.thebottomend.co.uk/ken_kreisel_int.php

@rauliruegas You seem confused. I didn’t say anything about how long subwoofers have been around, only that they enhance the listening experience. Sorry, no time to read all of the information you copied and pasted from Wikipedia. I’m sure it’s interesting, but not relevant to anything I said.

@big_greg    You did not but you supported the post by @coltrane1  :

" 

I have never understood the preoccupation with bass. For half a century we didn’t even have subs. When you listen to a live band do you experience the bass is missing? I just don’t get it. I have ML’s, and I have more bass than I need. This without a sub. End rant. "

You made the point precisely.

R.